theory Nightblodium

[Oudeis he/him]

But that's my question. We don't actually know if it's obeying physical laws or not. There's no reason why black smoke might not rise in air. I just wonder, is it because of simple smoke, or it is something else? Again, questions, without answers.

[Michael Portz he/him]

Thanks, Confused, you finally got an upvote from me for clarifying mandates to me :-D Usually I shy away from your posts, because the rigor showing is just beyond my limit of casual reading; alas never finding the time to thoroughly trying to work through your theories :-/

 

Oudeis, I thought you'd appreciate that line! Thanks!

 

Lindel is correct. To me, "mandate" is the proper word for "intent" based on HoA text. I explain why in my admittedly bloviated "Mandates of the Known Shards" post. (If you skip the introduction, it's not so bad.)

 

Lindel is incorrect in thinking I "use different words for a Shard's Intent as compared to its mandate." They are equivalent terms. Chaos invented "intent" in an early and still excellent post; and I recently noticed Sazed use the term "mandate of its abilities" in HoA with reference to power. Feel free to use whatever word, but I prefer the one from the text.

 

Back to you Oudeis...did I understand that you got scared from reading the "Mandates" post because "it got very big very fast"?

 

My "underlying premise" in that post is that the name of a Shard does not necessarily signify its mandate. Mandates have to be viewed broadly and abstractly, beyond a simple definition of the Shard name. The critical question is how does the Shard's mandate cause it to express its power - what it DOES, not what its name means. I think, for example, Honor's mandate is "Relationships," a word I'm not fond of but well states how Honor expresses his power - IMO through social and physical bonds, organization, structure etc.

 

I THOUGHT you and I had a similar understanding about the nature of mandates. I recall you commenting on the Progression Surge in the prior Nightblood thread. You stated how people over-emphasize the "progress" - "forward" - part of "Progression." I agreed with what you said. Oh well...

 

A Realmatic issue: if everyone can see the smoke, it's in the Physical Realm.

 

I would like to see that WoB about "waste." That seems contrary to what Brandon has said about Endowment's investiture being "sticky." "Stickiness" suggests Endowment should not leak out of the sheath. WoB explicitly states Breath in this respect is unlike Stormlight. Maybe he's saying the smoke represents the non-investiture residue from whatever person Nightblood killed? Just seems strange...

 

On a sidenote: the "passing relationship" stance mentioned by Dunkum should on the other hand NEVER be used like "It's a kind of magic" in "Highlander", but only to emphasize (and NOT explain!) clear-cut cosmeric deviations from "our" laws of nature.

 

As a rule, for investiture and shard related things, I tend to assume the "passing relationship with physical laws" idea.  when things don't behave how they normally would in the physical realm, I tend to assume it is because there is something else going on in the spiritual or cognitive.

[Zathoth]

Theories ohoy~

 

Nightblood eats investiture. Things eaten need to go somewhere, so the smoke probably just goes back to the universe, so to speak. I think there was a WoB in the AMA (that I cant find at the moment) that said that investiture is just an extra force of physics or something along those lines.

 

Anyway I figure it goes like this

 

Nightblood eats investiture--->Nightblood digests investiture---->Investiture leaks out and becomes part of the universe again.

 

I guess there is some kind of nutrition in the innate investiture that Nightblood absorbs that he then absorbs.

 

Edit: Found the WoB

 

 

3. Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cpcr6ws

Edited September 10, 2015 by Morzathoth

[Canton of Unorthodoxy he/him]

Anyway I figure it goes like this

 

Nightblood eats investiture--->Nightblood digests investiture---->Investiture leaks out and becomes part of the universe again.

 

I guess there is some kind of nutrition in the innate investiture that Nightblood absorbs that he then absorbs.

 

Alright. Assuming you're correct in assuming that Nightblood is indeed digesting the investitiure (for the record, I agree that is likely), and... pooping out the waste, which we see as smoke, then what actually happens to that waste?

 

If it's been drained of all of its nutrients, so to speak, then what's left over is presumably some form of partially-drained battery. Perhaps the substance, devoid of intent (or mandate), sort of just floats around freely until it's eventually sucked back into one of the shards (or a similar source of power) and re-integrated.

 

Then, assuming the above is plausible; does the shard absorbing Nightblood's waste become more or less powerfull? I mean, there's no more stuff to but your power into, and therefor more room for your power. On the other hand, It's possible that the additional substance requiring infusion would only dilute the shard's power, spreading it out just a little thinner.

 

Kind of a side-theroy, but I figured it may be worth mentioning. I'll admit, I have only a moderate knowledge of Realmatic Theory, so this could easily be flawed.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

Theories ohoy~

 

Nightblood eats investiture. Things eaten need to go somewhere, so the smoke probably just goes back to the universe, so to speak. I think there was a WoB in the AMA (that I cant find at the moment) that said that investiture is just an extra force of physics or something along those lines.

 

Anyway I figure it goes like this

 

Nightblood eats investiture--->Nightblood digests investiture---->Investiture leaks out and becomes part of the universe again.

 

I guess there is some kind of nutrition in the innate investiture that Nightblood absorbs that he then absorbs.

 

Edit: Found the WoB

 

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/cpcr6ws

 

 

The 'nutrients' Nightblood gets from investiture is probably what constantly powers his Consciousness. He obviously doesn't have a physical brain to store it nor physical digestive system to power it so it must work something like a Nahel bond for spren. They get something out of the bond that gives them sentience as well. As to where it goes after he re-emits the waste energy, I think we'll need to know a bit more on the Cognitive realms inhabitance relationship with investiture.

My personal theory is that it works for them the same way it works for humans but opposite. Investiture for humans gives them abilities to alter the physical world through the cognitive (gives their ideas and thoughts shape and power). Maybe giving investiture to cognitive aspects gives them the power to change things in the cognitive realm through the physical. Idk, its just what came to my mind when I read this thread.   

[Zathoth]

Alright. Assuming you're correct in assuming that Nightblood is indeed digesting the investitiure (for the record, I agree that is likely), and... pooping out the waste, which we see as smoke, then what actually happens to that waste?

 

If it's been drained of all of its nutrients, so to speak, then what's left over is presumably some form of partially-drained battery. Perhaps the substance, devoid of intent (or mandate), sort of just floats around freely until it's eventually sucked back into one of the shards (or a similar source of power) and re-integrated.

 

Then, assuming the above is plausible; does the shard absorbing Nightblood's waste become more or less powerfull? I mean, there's no more stuff to but your power into, and therefor more room for your power. On the other hand, It's possible that the additional substance requiring infusion would only dilute the shard's power, spreading it out just a little thinner.

 

Kind of a side-theroy, but I figured it may be worth mentioning. I'll admit, I have only a moderate knowledge of Realmatic Theory, so this could easily be flawed.

I figure it behaves like all leftover products, it ends up helping cognitive flowers bloom and such. I dont think there is anything overly magical happening to the investiture (which I realize is kind of funny), it just changes shape and does something else.

 

With that said I dont think anything special happens to the shard either, it is not much different than an allomancer burning metals. They get some of Preservations power, they use that power and then they lose the power, said power goes back to the shard or something.

 

 

(Someone who actually knows physics has to chime in here, because I obviously do not know what I am talking about)

 

 

 

The 'nutrients' Nightblood gets from investiture is probably what constantly powers his Consciousness. He obviously doesn't have a physical brain to store it nor physical digestive system to power it so it must work something like a Nahel bond for spren. They get something out of the bond that gives them sentience as well. As to where it goes after he re-emits the waste energy, I think we'll need to know a bit more on the Cognitive realms inhabitance relationship with investiture.

My personal theory is that it works for them the same way it works for humans but opposite. Investiture for humans gives them abilities to alter the physical world through the cognitive (gives their ideas and thoughts shape and power). Maybe giving investiture to cognitive aspects gives them the power to change things in the cognitive realm through the physical. Idk, its just what came to my mind when I read this thread.   

I think that is pretty much what happens as well. Nightblood always feeds on the investiture around him, he just feeds a little more when he is drawn.

That is a cool theory, I like it...

[Oudeis he/him]

Investiture for humans gives them abilities to alter the physical world through the cognitive (gives their ideas and thoughts shape and power).   

 

I feel like this is an oversimplification... This is how Investiture behaves in a few specific ways. There are other Investitures which are more spiritual, and still others which are more physical. And others that affect multiple realms. Simply within feruchemy, the powers are loosely grouped by the Realm they interact with most closely. Of course, each one requires a conscious decision, and is therefore cognitive... but by that same note, it could just as easily be said they each require a physical component in the metalmind, and a spiritual component in the spiritweb that makes one a feruchemist. For that matter, neither bronze nor copper allomancy seems to affect the "physical" world very much.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

I feel like this is an oversimplification... This is how Investiture behaves in a few specific ways. There are other Investitures which are more spiritual, and still others which are more physical. And others that affect multiple realms. Simply within feruchemy, the powers are loosely grouped by the Realm they interact with most closely. Of course, each one requires a conscious decision, and is therefore cognitive... but by that same note, it could just as easily be said they each require a physical component in the metalmind, and a spiritual component in the spiritweb that makes one a feruchemist. For that matter, neither bronze nor copper allomancy seems to affect the "physical" world very much.

 

 

It was an over-simplified idea. Basically I meant that Physical realm inhabitance use investiture to affect their own surroundings, while the exact details of what the power does to achieve those effects varies they all have one thing in common, that is, making the investiture do things requires a cognitive direction. Much like the shards use the shardholders as the cognitive direction. You have to know and think about what you want to do to achieve it.

Now based on that idea I figured that the spren, as Cognitive Aspects can't change anything in the Cognitive realm as much without a 'Physical direction'. I figure this because the Cognitive realm is based on the perception of the Physical realms inhabitance. So in order for a spren to really change their own surroundings they have to alter physical world first in some way. Now as for what they do with investiture or how they make any changes I don't know. But they do use it for something or else Soulcasting wouldn't work because you can't bribe someone with something they don't see as valuable. 

Maybe all they use investiture for is to change, and with enough, are able to manifest in the physical realm more and more in order to help shape events and outcomes that would be more beneficial for their own interests.  

[Oudeis he/him]

they all have one thing in common, that is, making the investiture do things requires a cognitive direction.  

 

See this is what I was trying to say. You say they have ONE thing in common, like cognitive effect is unique. But it's not. Like all things, like all people, like all phenomenon, Investitures exist in all three realms. They all need the Intent, yes. They also all seem to need something physical. And they all seem to need something spiritual. I'm not disagreeing with you that Investiture requires something cognitive. But you're phrasing it in a way to suggest that this is the only commonality to be found between Investitures, and I think this is a false assumption. True, without the decision to Soothe, a Misting couldn't Soothe. However, without brass shavings, he also couldn't, and without the proper spiritweb, he also couldn't.

 

Your premise seems to be that the cognitive is somehow key to everything, and I disagree. You also seem to be dividing up the realms in a way I don't think is an accurate model. Talking about the cognitive and physical realms as distinct places is, I believe, talking about the cyan and magenta ink on a color print-out like they're separate. They're just aspects of one greater whole.

 

It is faulty to define Investiture as "using the cognitive realm to affect the physical realm." In almost every case, to occasionally different extents, it is using all three realms to affect... all three realms. Spren are practically unheard of throughout the cosmere by seeming to exist in only one realm and yet... do they? Aren't flamespren just an aspect of fire? Aren't rainspren a facet of the rain?

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

See this is what I was trying to say. You say they have ONE thing in common, like cognitive effect is unique. But it's not. Like all things, like all people, like all phenomenon, Investitures exist in all three realms. They all need the Intent, yes. They also all seem to need something physical. And they all seem to need something spiritual. I'm not disagreeing with you that Investiture requires something cognitive. But you're phrasing it in a way to suggest that this is the only commonality to be found between Investitures, and I think this is a false assumption. True, without the decision to Soothe, a Misting couldn't Soothe. However, without brass shavings, he also couldn't, and without the proper spiritweb, he also couldn't.

 

Your premise seems to be that the cognitive is somehow key to everything, and I disagree. You also seem to be dividing up the realms in a way I don't think is an accurate model. Talking about the cognitive and physical realms as distinct places is, I believe, talking about the cyan and magenta ink on a color print-out like they're separate. They're just aspects of one greater whole.

 

It is faulty to define Investiture as "using the cognitive realm to affect the physical realm." In almost every case, to occasionally different extents, it is using all three realms to affect... all three realms. Spren are practically unheard of throughout the cosmere by seeming to exist in only one realm and yet... do they? Aren't flamespren just an aspect of fire? Aren't rainspren a facet of the rain?

 

 

I agree that is a chink in my theory. I'm still trying to figure out how the Spiritual realm comes into play with it. Unnfortunatly we don't have much info to go on in that regard.

On the other hand while the realms are all part of a greater whole, and everything exists in all three at the same time, they do seem to display a certain level of distinctness. At least from what I have seen on Shardesmar and such. My theory doesn't go into the day to day relationship between realms but Individuals within different realms when Investiture is involved. 

Either way I hope the next Stormlight book goes into greater detail on Spren and the Cognitive realm so Brandon can tell us we were all wrong.

[SirrahGreed]

 I disagree with the "adult" statement. Clearly Nightblood is closer to that of a two-year old who doesn't understand right from wrong without guidance and will clearly stuff himself until he's sick.

 I disagree with Nightblood being meant to hold Odium (though he might be handy in destroying a shardbearer) as Nightblood would be so fueled with hatred he might simply go on a killing spree and force another shard to stop him. That sounds too much like a plan Odium or Ruin would have created in the first place.

  It seems more likely that if Nightblood, a synthetic Spren, were to become the holder of Odium, we'd see the largest Supernova/Blackhole in recent literature IMO    Absorbing all that power just to consume it, if he truly expanded his conscience I think his hatred could easily become self-targeting. 

15 Shards and 1 that went suicidal and leaped to another dimension.

Calamity is Nightblood? haha

[Shardbearer he/him]

Hmm, someone should as Brandon: "What happens to Nightblood if he consume a Divine Breath?"

 

Knowing if consuming a Splinter would change him could go a long way to telling us if he might be able to hold a Shard.

 

Probably a RAFO question, though.

[DSC01 he/him]

I was ignoring this thread because I didn't recognize the title as "Nightblood" + "Odium" and thought it was some bizarre musing on Nightblood having a Scadrian god metal or something. I was not interested in such a theory. This, however, I am quite interested in. Even if it's not altogether accurate, you have to be on the right track. Nightblood holding Odium solves some major problems. I am pretty sure that Nightblood's directive to destroy evil would combine with Odium's intent to create a Shard that hates evil and tries to destroy it.

 

Note: I don't think Odium would overwhelm Nightblood's mind the way Ruin did Ati's. I think Nightblood's Command is very much like a Shard's intent and should work well with one, as long as they do not oppose each other. Plus, I think that a simpler mind would be easier to get to work in accordance with a Shard's intent than a complicated human one. Ati was like, "I like walks on the beach, and puppies, and the color green, and being nice to children, and tomato soup, and I get annoyed when my fishing lines tangle, and I don't really like carrots, and..." and Ruin was just like, "No. Break everything into it's smallest pieces." Nightblood, on the other hand is just like, "I destroy evil." Period. Odium is like, "Well, I'm disgusted with everything. Let's hate evil together."

Edited October 28, 2015 by DSC01

[Charononus]

I was ignoring this thread because I didn't recognize the title as "Nightblood" + "Odium" and thought it was some bizarre musing on Nightblood having a Scadrian god metal or something. I was not interested in such a theory. This, however, I am quite interested in. Even if it's not altogether accurate, you have to be on the right track. Nightblood holding Odium solves some major problems. I am pretty sure that Nightblood's directive to destroy evil would combine with Odium's intent to create a Shard that hates evil and tries to destroy it.

 

Note: I don't think Odium would overwhelm Nightblood's mind the way Ruin did Ati's. I think Nightblood's Command is very much like a Shard's intent and should work well with one, as long as they do not oppose each other. Plus, I think that a simpler mind would be easier to get to work in accordance with a Shard's intent than a complicated human one. Ati was like, "I like walks on the beach, and puppies, and the color green, and being nice to children, and tomato soup, and I get annoyed when my fishing lines tangle, and I don't really like carrots, and..." and Ruin was just like, "No. Break everything into it's smallest pieces." Nightblood, on the other hand is just like, "I destroy evil." Period. Odium is like, "Well, I'm disgusted with everything. Let's hate evil together."

Unless poor nightblood stays confused on what evil is and decides to destroy everything to make sure he gets all the evil,  because he now hates evil so much.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Charononus

[DSC01 he/him]

I think the Cognitive expansion he experienced from picking up the Shard would give him an idea of what evil is. Even in his current state, while he can't differentiate between good and evil, something about his power can, as he has no effect on the pure of heart. If his mind was expanded by holding a Shard, I'm sure that he would be able to tap into that.

[Cruxer he/him]

I theorize that if Nightblood were to take absorb ANY shard, that he would instantly have a grasp of the intent behind the original command to destroy evil. My evidence lies in the example of Ruin/Preservation. Others have pointed out that when a person takes up a shard, there is isn’t a full omniscience that happens, but the new Shard is instantly granted a depth of knowledge of the history of the Shard. Through this, Nightblood would have context for the original command, but it would be inherently flawed, as it would be colored by the perception of the shard’s intent. The reason he didn’t receive this from Endowment on Nalthis is because he was just given a lot of investiture. He was not a receptacle for the power and intent of the aspect of the Almighty. We know that Nightblood already has a level of sentience but he has not the correct hardware for that sentience to expand. It’s like creating an immortal person and locking them inside a box as an infant and leaving them there for eternity. They will never be able to expand their consciousness because they are unable to expand the context of sentient thought. Absorbing a shard would completely change. that. 

 

I also think that this theory is a pretty logical leap. That is exactly why I think it won’t happen. I don’t believe that Nightblood was created with this purpose in mind, though, we don’t know enough about the Five Scholars and what they were trying to achieve to determine this. We also don’t know how Nightblood was removed from Vasher’s possession. 

 

My own spin on this theory is that someone will try to absorb Odium with Nightblade, and will fail. Odium is definitely super-crafty, and I think he’ll pull an Ati-Style switcheroo. And then mass craziness will ensue as Nightblade absorbs one of the other known Shards on Roshar (Cultivation or Honor). Imagine a Nightblood who has become more self-aware, and possibly able to take on other forms. A Nightblood who perhaps has combined an inflated sense of Honor that has been combined with the insatiable need to destroy evil. This could completely destroy Honor, as there are times when the honorable thing to do is not to destroy the evil-doer, but instead to show mercy and give the opportunity for redemption. I can’t even imagine what he would do to Cultivation. Basically, Nightblood taking a shard’s power could corrupt the original intent beyond recognition. Or, it would destroy Nightblood as he currently is. 

[Charononus]

 

I theorize that if Nightblood were to take absorb ANY shard, that he would instantly have a grasp of the intent behind the original command to destroy evil. My evidence lies in the example of Ruin/Preservation. Others have pointed out that when a person takes up a shard, there is isn’t a full omniscience that happens, but the new Shard is instantly granted a depth of knowledge of the history of the Shard. Through this, Nightblood would have context for the original command, but it would be inherently flawed, as it would be colored by the perception of the shard’s intent. The reason he didn’t receive this from Endowment on Nalthis is because he was just given a lot of investiture. He was not a receptacle for the power and intent of the aspect of the Almighty. We know that Nightblood already has a level of sentience but he has not the correct hardware for that sentience to expand. It’s like creating an immortal person and locking them inside a box as an infant and leaving them there for eternity. They will never be able to expand their consciousness because they are unable to expand the context of sentient thought. Absorbing a shard would completely change. that. 

 

I also think that this theory is a pretty logical leap. That is exactly why I think it won’t happen. I don’t believe that Nightblood was created with this purpose in mind, though, we don’t know enough about the Five Scholars and what they were trying to achieve to determine this. We also don’t know how Nightblood was removed from Vasher’s possession. 

 

My own spin on this theory is that someone will try to absorb Odium with Nightblade, and will fail. Odium is definitely super-crafty, and I think he’ll pull an Ati-Style switcheroo. And then mass craziness will ensue as Nightblade absorbs one of the other known Shards on Roshar (Cultivation or Honor). Imagine a Nightblood who has become more self-aware, and possibly able to take on other forms. A Nightblood who perhaps has combined an inflated sense of Honor that has been combined with the insatiable need to destroy evil. This could completely destroy Honor, as there are times when the honorable thing to do is not to destroy the evil-doer, but instead to show mercy and give the opportunity for redemption. I can’t even imagine what he would do to Cultivation. Basically, Nightblood taking a shard’s power could corrupt the original intent beyond recognition. Or, it would destroy Nightblood as he currently is. 

 

See I'm not sure on this.  I look at nightblood almost like an ai as he is an artificial entity.  Adding the power of the shard would add more data to his mind,  and in a way more cpu power,  but it doesn't correct his fundamental flaw of being artificial and not understanding moral judgements.  At increased power from a shard he might be able to make better guesses on what Vasher would think,  (he seems to try to please Vasher) but they would still be guesses.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Charononus

[DSC01 he/him]

I agree with you to a certain extent, but as I mentioned before, there is a component to his power that understands moral judgments. He may not understand evil, but those who are not evil are not tempted by him. Whatever the reason for this is, he would certainly come to understand it as soon as he picked up a Shard, and that would inform his moral compass.

[Stormgate he/him]

I do not think that Nightblood will ever hold a Shard, especially not Odium, the Shard that is closest to pure evil.

 

That said, Odium is not evil. Odium is divine hatred taken out of context. 

We tend to look at Odium as the Big Bad Wolf of the Cosmere, the entity that must somehow be dealt with, and hopefully/possibly destroyed. The sad thing is, we tend to ignore that the force that, in a way, created Odium, along with Honor, Cultivation, Preservation, Ruin, and the mysterious Autonomy, is still out there. 

Adonalsium was all-powerful. The Shards are rightfully honored as deity, how much more powerful must they be combined? What could possibly break something this powerful?

Pure evil.

Nightblood was not created to eventually become a Shardholder, nor to destroy Odium.

Nightblood was created for the purpose of eventually destroying whatever broke Adonalsium on all three realms, wiping it from existence completely and totally.

 

In my head, I see it as Adonalsium, a glowing white figure that makes the most charged Radiant look like a Christmas tree light, holding a black blade that seems to glow darkness. Adonalsium charges the force that once separated its pieces, and, after a suitably long fight, destroys it. Not truly avenging itself, the new Adonalsium having a different core personality and memories than the old one, but good enough for all who care to know.

After all, the God Beyond had returned and destroyed the force that destroyed it in the first place.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I currently believe that the "force" that opposed and shattered Adonalsium is actually the 16 original Shard holders.

[natc]

Hatred is just as far from evil as it is close to it though. It is physically possible to hate evil. Hate disease and death, hate suffering.

It is no doubt a dangerous shard now that it is unchained from the rest of Adonalsium, but unlike Ruin which is clearly forcing Ati to destroy nonstop Odium is only causing all of this destruction because of Rayse.

I do believe it was Shashara and Vasher who decided on the command, and I doubt Vasher was that aware of things.

[Yata he/him]

New Creepy WoB about Nightblood:

 

 

Q: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?
Brandon: Yes.
Q: So, is Nightblood reducing the amount of Investiture in the cosmere?
Brandon: Yes. At a very slow rate, but yes.

[DreamEternal]

New Creepy WoB about Nightblood:

Wonderful. Just wonderful. Vasher killed investiture termodynamics in the worst way possible. >:-(

Edited December 14, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Yata he/him]

Wonderful. Just wonderful. Vasher killed investiture termodynamics in the worst way possible. >:-(

The problem is how to put this information together with "the Investiture can't be destroyed"

Maybe Nightblood just "trasforms" Investiture in a way that became completely "inert" (the Investiture stay there but nobody may use it)

[baby he/him]

So now we have a direct WoB that says Vasher came to Roshar, saw shard blades and went back to Nalthis and made night blood.