Cosmere Battle Royale; AKA Who Would Win

[Edgedancer]

I doubt that Vin´s weight would enter the equasion, the moment her weight effects the push the force of the push effects her body and I´m pretty sure in that case she would need Duralumin Pewter to keep her from damaging her own body and an anchor to make sure she isn´t tossed around and the push thrown of angle.

 

If they do NOT have knowledge of each other, Vin in EVERY SINGLE COMBAT she has had, she opens up with shooting coins. How would Szeth know to counter an ability that he knows nothing about in 0.01 seconds it takes to reach him? If he comes at her, any attack, any attempt to touch her, even his "glowing spray" would be seen in a shadow allowing her to avoid.

Coins yes, powered by Duramumin probably not.

[Pathfinder]

I doubt that Vin´s weight would enter the equasion, the moment her weight effects the push the force of the push effects her body and I´m pretty sure in that case she would need Duralumin Pewter to keep her from damaging her own body and an anchor to make sure she isn´t tossed around and the push thrown of angle.

 

Coins yes, powered by Duramumin probably not.

But correct me if I am wrong, but her weight is what is driving the coin forward. So the force on the coin is her body weight. Technically she can exert more, which is why she can fly. She is using the coin to push her weight against the floor, to move up. 

 

And there are numerous examples of her opening up with a duramumin push. They are mainly in the later half of the second book, and most of the third book, but they are there

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Edgedancer]

But correct me if I am wrong, but her weight is what is driving the coin forward. So the force on the coin is her body weight. Technically she can exert more, which is why she can fly. She is using the coin to push her weight against the floor, to move up. 

 

And there are numerous examples of her opening up with a duramumin push. They are mainly in the later half of the second book, and most of the third book, but they are there

Honestly, I´m not a 100% sure. Her weight definetly can´t be the major factor in deciding the strenght of the push, otherwise a D!push wouldn´t be any stronger. The impresion I got is that the weight only really matters once you push against something that has proper support, needing you to use your own footing as an anchor, I might be wrong though.

 

Granted but if I remember right those were against the likes of Kollos and Inquisitors, where she knows that big guns are needed not against random people on the street she doesn´t know are invested.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Pathfinder]

Honestly, I´m not a 100% sure. Her weight definetly can´t be the major factor in deciding the strenght of the push, otherwise a D!push wouldn´t be any stronger. The impresion I got is that the weight only really matters once you push against something that has proper support, needing you to use your own footing as an anchor, I might be wrong though.

 

Granted but if I remember right those were against the likes of Kollos and Inquisitors, where she knows that big guns are needed not against random people on the street she doesn´t know are invested.

I would need to pull up, but there are numerous threads that discuss the strength of the mistborn doing the push themselves isn't hinged solely on the weight, but that the weight is the anchor to push off of. There does however have to be at least 120 pounds of force in the push in order to drive Vin up in the opposite direction of the push. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now where it gets cloudy is how Vin, who is outweighed by Kelsier, can bring to fore nearly as much as he can. So theoretically her push would greatly exceed 120 pounds of force, despite that being the full extent of her weight. The other threads were to try and determine WHY her push was nearly just as powerful as Kelsier's despite the weight differential

 

So if we are then rationalizing on what abilities it would make sense for her to use, then taken Vin is a street urchin, and knows you have to finish combat as brutal and as quickly as possible, she would employ her full abilities in order end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible. In addition there are times where she fights normal enemies and uses duramumin. On example being the bandits pursuing Breeze as he is fleeing to Luthadel. She uses duramumin on them. 

 

edit: i excluded the fact that Vin was unique in the strength of her pushes in an attempt to provide a standardized measurement in order to determine how great a potential gravitational force would have to be to affect the push enough to prevent it from connecting with Szeth. 

 

I think what is most perplexing me, is all the points I have been making were not to say "hey Vin just needs to do this and Szeth is dead". It is to show that Szeth can't "just do this and Vin is dead". There is a LOT more going on in this fight for it to be called so callously that way. 

 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Edgedancer]

I would need to pull up, but there are numerous threads that discuss the strength of the mistborn doing the push themselves isn't hinged solely on the weight, but that the weight is the anchor to push off of. There does however have to be at least 120 pounds of force in the push in order to drive Vin up in the opposite direction of the push. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Now where it gets cloudy is how Vin, who is outweighed by Kelsier, can bring to fore nearly as much as he can. So theoretically her push would greatly exceed 120 pounds of force, despite that being the full extent of her weight. The other threads were to try and determine WHY her push was nearly just as powerful as Kelsier's despite the weight differential

 

So if we are then rationalizing on what abilities it would make sense for her to use, then taken Vin is a street urchin, and knows you have to finish combat as brutal and as quickly as possible, she would employ her full abilities in order end the fight as quickly and efficiently as possible. In addition there are times where she fights normal enemies and uses duramumin. On example being the bandits pursuing Breeze as he is fleeing to Luthadel. She uses duramumin on them.

 

I think was is most perplexing me, is all the points I have been making were not to say "hey Vin just needs to do this and Szeth is dead". It is to show that Szeth can't "just do this and Vin is dead". There is a LOT more going on in this fight for it to be called so callously that way.

There are probably people that put more thought into this than I but I always went with the rather simple model that the strenght of a push is based on two factors, the power comming from the Investure and the anchor. With something like a coin the inherent strenght of the push would be enough to affect it withouth needing a proper anchor. It would also explains the situation with Kelsier, given that her allomantic strenght is stronger allowing her to pull more Investure forth while burning.

 

We are still assuming that she doesn´t know who Szeth is, right? Because I would argue that using the stronger attack that depleates one of your resourcess, when you have no reason to belive that a normal coin shot wouldn´t do the job just as well, isn´t as much efficent as it is wasteful and risky should more attackers (that may be more dangerous) lay in wait.

She also used enhanced Pewter against the thugs attacking in the counsel meeting but unless using it is for a cointoss in a situation withouth inherently raised risks is her first reaction it doesn´t really apply.

Naturally, that changes should there be a gurantee for her that there aren´t more attackers or some reason for her to overkill be present.

 

I also wouldn´t just hand the battle to Szeth, depending on the amount of Stormlight available, just added my two cents. (Granted, I would also argue that Atium isn´t a natural part of Allomancy but channeling the power of a god using Allomancy as a tool and giving her that advantage should be compensated with more Stormlight than a simple pouch worth but that is another matter entierly.)

[Pathfinder]

We are still assuming that she doesn´t know who Szeth is, right? Because I would argue that using the stronger attack that depleates one of your resourcess, when you have no reason to belive that a normal coin shot wouldn´t do the job just as well, isn´t as much efficent as it is wasteful and risky should more attackers (that may be more dangerous) lay in wait.

She also used enhanced Pewter against the thugs attacking in the counsel meeting but unless using it is for a cointoss in a situation withouth inherently raised risks is her first reaction it doesn´t really apply.

Naturally, that changes should there be a gurantee for her that there aren´t more attackers or some reason for her to overkill be present.

As you state it, I agree, but I was under the impression that there was a neutral field, Vin starts at one end, Szeth at another, they know they are to fight to the death, and an intangible deep voice yells "FIGHT!" So Vin would not need to ration her metals on the off chance there would be further combatants. I was at least attempting at an as equal and neutral battle field, and circumstances as possible, with the tools provided in the initial battle posited. Szeth with an honorblade, Vin with the metals listed. I would be happy to discuss with you how we could alter the combat scenario to be as equal as possible  . How much theoretical stormlight do you think Szeth should have to level the playing field for atium? I am trying to think of a unit of measurement that could be applied 

[Edgedancer]

As you state it, I agree, but I was under the impression that there was a neutral field, Vin starts at one end, Szeth at another, they know they are to fight to the death, and an intangible deep voice yells "FIGHT!" So Vin would not need to ration her metals on the off chance there would be further combatants. I was at least attempting at an as equal and neutral battle field, and circumstances as possible, with the tools provided in the initial battle posited. Szeth with an honorblade, Vin with the metals listed. I would be happy to discuss with you how we could alter the combat scenario to be as equal as possible  . How much theoretical stormlight do you think Szeth should have to level the playing field for atium? I am trying to think of a unit of measurement that could be applied 

Getting a proper balance on resources is hard. The easiest would be to say that they simply don´t run out, with the exception of Vin having to down a vial after using Duralumin, but given that there isn´t a hard limit on how much Stormlight can be used at once that would heavily favour Szeth. For example to deal with a D!push instead of doing some reverse lashing trick he could just Lash himself X times the moment he notices Vin throwing something at him and become fast enough to doge the coin that way.

Maybe instead of finding a definite who would win it would make more sense to to split into scenarios depending on the amount of resources they have at hand.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Pathfinder]

Getting a proper balance on resources is hard. The easiest would be to say that they simply don´t run out, with the exception of Vin having to down a vial after using Duralumin, but given that there isn´t a hard limit on how much Stormlight can be used at once that would heavily favour Szeth. For example to deal with a D!push instead of doing some reverse lashing trick he could just Lash himself X times the moment he notices Vin throwing something at him and become fast enough to doge the coin that way.

Maybe instead of finding a definite who would win it would make more sense to to split into scenarios depending on the amount of resources they have at hand.

Very true, especially considering it is near impossible to with the information we have to determine the relative burn rates, and how much stormlight it takes to do action A, vs how much metal is consumed to do action B. All we do is arbitrary conjecture based on some circumstances mentioned and infer from there. We KNOW metals are more resource efficient in consumption (no continual loss), but we do not KNOW to the exact degree. 

 

I whole heartily agree, I am still swamped with work, and cannot post as long as I would like, so I will think on scenarios and post as they come to me. 

 

Though if we gave Szeth unlimited stormlight, then Vin could burn the mists, and at which point she can push on the metals inside a persons body O.O lol so yeah again, like you said we need to focus on scenarios

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

Even if Vin duralumin Pushed coins at Szeth, he'd survive. It's not like that would kill him, and it's not like Vin would know to aim for the head. (Which may or may not be lethal, as per Miles.)

 

I do think Szeth would have an impossible time stopping a duralumin punch/headbutt, but Vin would have issues getting that close, even with atium.

[Pathfinder]

Even if Vin duralumin Pushed coins at Szeth, he'd survive. It's not like that would kill him, and it's not like Vin would know to aim for the head. (Which may or may not be lethal, as per Miles.)

 

I do think Szeth would have an impossible time stopping a duralumin punch/headbutt, but Vin would have issues getting that close, even with atium.

This scene is with Kal striking Szeth with a broken spear like a staff, using a steady burn of stormlight, no surges of enhancement, so in my opinion based on the description, the equivalent of a steady pewter burn, please see below:

 

"The assassin took a blow to the shoulder, then the side. He couldnt ignore them all- his Stormlight would run out as it healed him. The assassin cursed, letting out another mouthful of Light, and backed away, his Shin eyes- slightly too large, colored like pale saphires- widening at the continued flurry of strikes."

 

I feel the problem we keep coming into is people are assuming just because Szeth could POTENTIALLY heal any blow regardless how severe, that he could do that for ALL attacks at ALL time. Miles has exponential healing due to compounding. I feel stormlight healing is a combination of feruchemal and allomantic abilities WITHOUT the compounding. So you have gold feruchemal level healing, where you can decide how much a resource you use and how fast, but like Allomancy, you are using an externally obtained power source to do so. So sure Wayne and Sazed can heal tons of damage insanely fast, but there is a limit to how long and how much they can do that. In a fight with Kal, just with a series of blows, Szeth was in danger of draining his supply due to passively healing from the attacks. Miles can take lets say a numeric value of 10 hours of health, and through compounding make it act as 100 hours, and then tap 50 hours for accelerated healing and yet still have 50 hours left (a INCREASE from what he started with). Szeth would have lets say 10 hours of healing he got from stormlight instead of storing, and use 5 hours all at once to heal quickly, but that still leaves him with 5 hours left (a DECREASE from what he started with). 

 

and again keep in mind, while he is using stormlight to heal, he is losing stormlight to what I will refer to as "decay" since it is steadily steaming off of him, as well as to fuel his increased speed, strength, and whatever abilities he uses during the combat. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

Szeth doesn't back off because he's worried about running out of Stormlight (the palace has plenty of Stormlight around, and he has backup gems in his pocket at the time, why would he care?). He backs off because Kaladin is an opponent he expected to run away or not otherwise be capable of harming him after he broke his spear. Kaladin is using Stormlight and attacking much faster and much stronger than he should be able to, and Szeth didn't expect him to. Szeth is only rarely in a situation where his opponent is like that. Such is my interpretation of the passage, anyways.
 
Szeth outright ignores a spear to the chest. This is pretty much the equivalent of a bunch of duralumin coins (though they may harm more, I don't think they'll harm significantly more). Yes, it'll drain his Stormlight healing them, but if Vin does that trick, suddenly she can't Push herself, Szeth isn't dead, and now he can Lash while she's limited to moving in two dimensions. Szeth doesn't need to win a battle of attrition. This will be over in seconds if Vin opens with that. And if Vin isn't going to open with that (she usually saves her duralumin uses for drastic moments), Szeth can Reverse Lash regular Pushed coins.
 
Pending atium, anyways. It's possible burning atium would let Vin avoid Szeth's Shardblade, despite his hugely increased speed. I think there's a very good chance that a duralumin pewter punch to the face would be able to kill Szeth.
 
If Szeth touches and Lashes Vin up, she can't really do a whole lot either (unless we're proposing this happens next to a gigantic metal block or something). And then Szeth can just Lash himself up and follow her direction and attack her and she can't dodge, just fling coins.
 
Also, since no one actually posted this, it's really quite relevant:

Phaz ()
In your gut instinct, who would win in a fight, Marsh (no atium, limited feruchemy) or Szeth? (Or maybe we could go Zane & Szeth since I see a lot of similarities in their characters. They also happen to be my favorites from their respective series)

[snipped]

Brandon Sanderson
First question: It's always hard to answer these questions, since there are so many factors. Do the combatants start at a distance? If so, Marsh/Zane have a huge advantage; they have the ability to fling coins.
Does Szeth have metal on him? Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling, as it's an Invested object. But he'd still have trouble getting to them if he had a clasp on his shoes, for example. He doesn't carry a lot of metal, but he might have some.
Overall, I'd say that a full-blown Mistborn would be tougher than Szeth in most cases.

(source)

 

He's also said elsewhere that atium is a huge advantage. However, this WoB is from 2011, and I'm not entirely sure if Brandon had set down just how crazy good Stormlight healing was back then.

[Shaggai]

Szeth doesn't back off because he's worried about running out of Stormlight (the palace has plenty of Stormlight around, and he has backup gems in his pocket at the time, why would he care?). He backs off because Kaladin is an opponent he expected to run away or not otherwise be capable of harming him after he broke his spear. Kaladin is using Stormlight and attacking much faster and much stronger than he should be able to, and Szeth didn't expect him to. Szeth is only rarely in a situation where his opponent is like that. Such is my interpretation of the passage, anyways.

 

Szeth outright ignores a spear to the chest. This is pretty much the equivalent of a bunch of duralumin coins (though they may harm more, I don't think they'll harm significantly more). Yes, it'll drain his Stormlight healing them, but if Vin does that trick, suddenly she can't Push herself, Szeth isn't dead, and now he can Lash while she's limited to moving in two dimensions. Szeth doesn't need to win a battle of attrition. This will be over in seconds if Vin opens with that. And if Vin isn't going to open with that (she usually saves her duralumin uses for drastic moments), Szeth can Reverse Lash regular Pushed coins.

 

Pending atium, anyways. It's possible burning atium would let Vin avoid Szeth's Shardblade, despite his hugely increased speed. I think there's a very good chance that a duralumin pewter punch to the face would be able to kill Szeth.

 

If Szeth touches and Lashes Vin up, she can't really do a whole lot either (unless we're proposing this happens next to a gigantic metal block or something). And then Szeth can just Lash himself up and follow her direction and attack her and she can't dodge, just fling coins.

 

Also, since no one actually posted this, it's really quite relevant:

 

He's also said elsewhere that atium is a huge advantage. However, this WoB is from 2011, and I'm not entirely sure if Brandon had set down just how crazy good Stormlight healing was back then.

This is especially true when you consider Full Lashings. It's possible to lay down a Full Lashing over an area. It's going to be hard for Vin to dodge if her feet are attached to the ground, particularly if Szeth then goes for her legs.

 

Also, Pathfinder: Pushing is not a constant force. Pushing is more like literal pushing. That's why it's possible to shoot a coin just by pushing on it for a short time.

[Pathfinder]

Szeth doesn't back off because he's worried about running out of Stormlight (the palace has plenty of Stormlight around, and he has backup gems in his pocket at the time, why would he care?). He backs off because Kaladin is an opponent he expected to run away or not otherwise be capable of harming him after he broke his spear. Kaladin is using Stormlight and attacking much faster and much stronger than he should be able to, and Szeth didn't expect him to. Szeth is only rarely in a situation where his opponent is like that. Such is my interpretation of the passage, anyways.

 

Szeth outright ignores a spear to the chest. This is pretty much the equivalent of a bunch of duralumin coins (though they may harm more, I don't think they'll harm significantly more). Yes, it'll drain his Stormlight healing them, but if Vin does that trick, suddenly she can't Push herself, Szeth isn't dead, and now he can Lash while she's limited to moving in two dimensions. Szeth doesn't need to win a battle of attrition. This will be over in seconds if Vin opens with that. And if Vin isn't going to open with that (she usually saves her duralumin uses for drastic moments), Szeth can Reverse Lash regular Pushed coins.

 

Pending atium, anyways. It's possible burning atium would let Vin avoid Szeth's Shardblade, despite his hugely increased speed. I think there's a very good chance that a duralumin pewter punch to the face would be able to kill Szeth.

 

If Szeth touches and Lashes Vin up, she can't really do a whole lot either (unless we're proposing this happens next to a gigantic metal block or something). And then Szeth can just Lash himself up and follow her direction and attack her and she can't dodge, just fling coins.

 

Also, since no one actually posted this, it's really quite relevant:

 

He's also said elsewhere that atium is a huge advantage. However, this WoB is from 2011, and I'm not entirely sure if Brandon had set down just how crazy good Stormlight healing was back then.

But as you said, that is your interpretation of that scene, my interpretation is different. It blatantly says "He couldn't ignore them all- his Stormlight would run out as it healed him."  You then say yourself why should he care if there is plenty of stormlight in the palace around him? That is an excellent question. If he has access to so much stormlight around him, but is concerned about it running out from ignoring all the wounds, then that leads me to believe that stormlight runs out THAT FAST. As you state yourself, there is plenty of stormlight around AS WELL AS what he has in his pouch, but in the example we are giving between Szeth and Vin, there is a finite amount he has to work with. Vin does that trick once with a steel push, and can do it again with an iron pull, so she actually gets two uses out of it, and STILL HAS ALL HER OTHER METALS. You state that it is difficult to affect Szeth's honorblade because it is heavily invested, but then act like Szeth would not have to use a TON of stormlight in order to touch and lash Vin who is heavily invested herself since she is a mistborn. Also both of you have stated "assuming Vin even gets close to him", yet Szeth is using a sword which requires close range combat, and all of his gravitation abilities require touch (except in one instance where it was a short range spray in front of him). He can fly all over the place, but he still needs to close the distance to fight. Now to be fair, since we are giving Vin coins, then Szeth should have pebbles the same size and number as the coins. I would say give Szeth coins, but then that is metal Vin can manipulate and would give her an unfair advantage. Now Szeth can put multiple lashings on the pebbles to have then shoot at Vin, but once they are gone, he has to actively retrieve them, while she can pull hers back. Regarding the reverse lash to her coins, Shaggai and I went back and forth over that exact topic. My point was not that Szeth COULDN'T reverse lash the coins enough to prevent his injury. My point was due to the velocity and force behind the coins, the amount of stormlight he would have to use in order to affect them enough to change their trajectory in the time required to prevent it from striking him would be SO GREAT, that he may very well drain himself fully of stormlight to accomplish one task. It would make more sense to take the hits and heal them, than to attempt to alter their course. It would also probably be more cost effective. 

 

So you reference Words of Brandon where he says himself he feels it would be close, but then discount it because in your own opinion it was awhile back, and he probably made Szeth stronger since then? That is a pretty big stretch. 

 

This is especially true when you consider Full Lashings. It's possible to lay down a Full Lashing over an area. It's going to be hard for Vin to dodge if her feet are attached to the ground, particularly if Szeth then goes for her legs.

 

Also, Pathfinder: Pushing is not a constant force. Pushing is more like literal pushing. That's why it's possible to shoot a coin just by pushing on it for a short time.

Fine, use a full lashing onto an area, that you have to make stronger than normal due to pewter and steel pushes. By all means use even greater amounts of your already depreciating supply

 

Actually pushing CAN BE a constant force. When Vin and Kelsier get into a pushing match is a prime example. Vin pushes a coin at Kelsier, he pushes on it to stop it, and instead of giving up, Vin continues till she is thrown back into a tree, and keeps doing it till the tree snaps. We only see mistborn and coinshots pushing on a short time because:

 

1. the push is strong enough to provide enough velocity to pierce the human body. Why use up more steel when you have already accomplished your goal?

 

2. the pushed coin will come into contact with something it CANNOT pierce, so for instance i do a constant push of a coin at a guard. it travels through the guard and flies to the wall, and I get thrown back. had i just done the push necessary to reach and kill the guard, all is done, no need to continue. 

 

3. Vin used a continual push to bring her to the top of the wall when Kelsier was first training her. She continued pushing to maintain her height, and Kelsier explained how the human body compensates naturally for balance, so she could stay aloft on one coin, though it is usually easier with a tripod configuration. Wax used a continual push on the railway lines after he was thrown off the train by Miles, and used the rails to catch up with the train and reengage the fight. 

 

I have been MIA for awhile because to be honest I got frustrated with this thread, and did not want to lash out or act in unbecoming conduct. Then thanksgiving and family happened. Now that I am back and more level headed, I intend to hopefully this weekend do a kindle search on both Way of Kings and Words of Radiance for all instances Szeth uses stormlight, and list all the things Szeth accomplishes between inhalations, and how bright he is during holding stormlight to hopefully illustrate a loose concept of how much stormlight he has, and what he can do with those amounts in those given situations. 

 

Also re-reading, I just would like to say Vin uses dularium A LOT. She has used it against human guards, she has used it against Koloss (not just soothing, but steel pushing and iron pulling), she has used it against horses, and has used it for travel. In fact I would say by the third book it is very rare for her NOT to use it. 

 

Sorry basically just going over both your posts to make sure I covered everything. Atium allowed Vin to avoid the blows of 12 simultaneous foes effortlessly, and although it is my opinion, I feel the speed and strength enhancement from stormlight is the equivalent to pewter. In both instances when normal people view or comment on Szeth's speed and strength, and Vin's speed and strength, they say almost the exact same thing. They are both incredibly fast and strong, WHEN COMPARED TO NORMAL PEOPLE. I would also like to point out, Vin is especially good with her metals, with her abilities being commented on as being far above what she should be able to do by Kelsier, a mistborn with years of training on her, and Elend, a mistborn more powerful due to the bead of lerasium. Szeth conversely has an inefficient stormlight use when compared to a radiant, and does not get the passive wind sense ability that Kal has from being a radiant.  

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

But as you said, that is your interpretation of that scene, my interpretation is different. It blatantly says "He couldn't ignore them all- his Stormlight would run out as it healed him." 

 

I'm trying to find that quote, but I haven't been able to figure out where it is. I did want to bring up a point, though: Szeth brings that up early on in WoK (I think?), and by the end of WoK he specifically notes he's taking in more Stormlight than he ever has before. It's possible he may have gotten more efficient with it, and have faster healing, because of his increased capacity. I'm not sure, though. It could be sort of like being a savant.

 

So you reference Words of Brandon where he says himself he feels it would be close, but then discount it because in your own opinion it was awhile back, and he probably made Szeth stronger since then? That is a pretty big stretch.

 

There's a huge jump in healing ability between WoK and WoR. I think it's something of a stretch to say that he made it more powerful, but it did sort of come across that way to me.

 

In regards to using a Reverse Lashing to deflect coins, I think it uses much less Stormlight than you're suggesting. Szeth himself notes it uses less than a Basic Lashing, and Kaladin manages to Reverse Lash an entire bridge despite only having a few spheres worth of Stormlight on him.

 

In regards to how hard it is to get close to Vin, maybe? Vin's limited in how she can move because she has to push off of things on the ground, whereas Szeth is free to move in three dimensions. If Szeth gets under Vin, she can't do a whole lot - she can't pull herself down, only Push her way up. This is a significant advantage I think.

 

I've generally changed my opinion on things, though. I think Vin would have a very solid chance against Szeth with atium, particularly if Szeth has no idea it's coming. If Vin burns duralumin with atium and pewter and steel (to Push herself as close as possible as fast as possible before Szeth can react), I'm not sure there's anything Szeth can do if she's close. Duralumin + atium is kind of horrifying.

 

If neither combatant knows what the other can do, I think it favors Vin because of atium. If they're both fully aware, I still lean slightly towards Szeth but I'm not sure. (And, uh, as for Kaladin, I think with his wind-sense he'd probably be even harder for Vin to beat than Szeth is. His healing is absurdly good as well, to the point where he heals broken legs in seconds before he's even spoken his Third Ideal.)

Edited December 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Edgedancer]

Duralumin + atium is kind of horrifying.

It actually isn´t that horrifying. While it would probably give Vin the perfect srategy for dealing with Szeth, she would have to pull it off without Atium, unless we are giving her multiple beads. It can´t be really used for hand to hand though, use it to early and the information becomes useless, because the future changes, use it to late and you might leave yourself vulnerable, because it´s to strong. The one instance of Duralmumin+Atium is described by Elend as "mind-numbing. All became white around him as knowledge saturated his mind." At the same time Elend botched his sword attack agains Marsh (it got caught on one of his spikes) and took an axe to the chest. Not the best field-test, if I might say so.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Edgedancer

[Pathfinder]

I'm trying to find that quote, but I haven't been able to figure out where it is. I did want to bring up a point, though: Szeth brings that up early on in WoK (I think?), and by the end of WoK he specifically notes he's taking in more Stormlight than he ever has before. It's possible he may have gotten more efficient with it, and have faster healing, because of his increased capacity. I'm not sure, though. It could be sort of like being a savant.

 

 

There's a huge jump in healing ability between WoK and WoR. I think it's something of a stretch to say that he made it more powerful, but it did sort of come across that way to me.

 

In regards to using a Reverse Lashing to deflect coins, I think it uses much less Stormlight than you're suggesting. Szeth himself notes it uses less than a Basic Lashing, and Kaladin manages to Reverse Lash an entire bridge despite only having a few spheres worth of Stormlight on him.

 

In regards to how hard it is to get close to Vin, maybe? Vin's limited in how she can move because she has to push off of things on the ground, whereas Szeth is free to move in three dimensions. If Szeth gets under Vin, she can't do a whole lot - she can't pull herself down, only Push her way up. This is a significant advantage I think.

 

I've generally changed my opinion on things, though. I think Vin would have a very solid chance against Szeth with atium, particularly if Szeth has no idea it's coming. If Vin burns duralumin with atium and pewter and steel (to Push herself as close as possible as fast as possible before Szeth can react), I'm not sure there's anything Szeth can do if she's close. Duralumin + atium is kind of horrifying.

 

If neither combatant knows what the other can do, I think it favors Vin because of atium. If they're both fully aware, I still lean slightly towards Szeth but I'm not sure. (And, uh, as for Kaladin, I think with his wind-sense he'd probably be even harder for Vin to beat than Szeth is. His healing is absurdly good as well, to the point where he heals broken legs in seconds before he's even spoken his Third Ideal.)

I will admit it is possible. I do not think it is the case, but I will give you that, it could be inferred from the evidence on hand that possibly Szeth's healing ability had been reconed between books. 

 

I do not mean this to sounds mean, but please check my earlier posts. When Shaggai and I went back and forth over this, I did some research on traveling ballistics, and reached out to some friends. Assuming my statement of a continued push, and assuming my understanding of Vin weighing roughly 120 pounds being the force driving the coin during its entire flight, then even without dularium, the coin shot would have an obscene velocity. Think sniper rifle, or even exceeding that. Now imagine having someone try to dodge a sniper rifle bullet when the person is standing 20 or 30 feet in front of them, and is unable to expect being shot at. As mentioned in the discussion with Shaggai, the reverse lashing, when used a little amount of stormlight, was used on two spears thrown down a hallway, and when arrows were shot. In both situations gravity is already acting on the objects, so they are being pulled towards the earth which is reducing the strength of their flight, as well as wind resistance and the force driving them ends once the spears left the hands, and the arrows left the bows. I am saying the coins would still have the same force acting on it at the beginning of its flight as at its end. Also the example you give of kaladin not using a lot of stormlight on the bridge, was when it was passive, and only protected him. Later he draws ALL the arrows to his shield, and exhausts ALL his stormlight to the point of passing out. That is why given the velocity, and the strength i feel szeth would have to do like kaladin and exhaust his entire supply to affect it. and this is again keeping in mind, what is easy for Kal is to a degree harder because Szeth can't use stormlight as efficiently as Kal

 

I do appreciate that you have reached the point where you agree it would be close between the two. that was the whole purpose of my comments. i am not saying szeth would win, or vin would win, just that there wouldn't be a simple game over action that szeth could do that would end the combat without giving vin a chance

 

I also whole heartily agree that if we took Kaladin instead of Szeth, much of this debate would be going differently. A morphing blade at a moments notice, better stormlight efficiency AND a windsense that mimics atium? Yeah I think the battle would be completely different. 

 

In fact just after I posted this, I think Syl's morphing capabilities alone would be enough of a game changer for a lot of the points I made against Szeth. Shooting the coins would be deflected from changing Syl into a shield. All the dularium pushes in the world to disarm Kal would mean nothing, because she could just be IMMEDIATELY re-summoned to his hand. Atium would be the only way to handle the morphing, and the windsense gives Kal a slight form of that. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

It actually isn´t that horrifying. While it would probably give Vin the perfect srategy for dealing with Szeth, she would have to pull it off without Atium, unless we are giving her multiple beads. It can´t be really used for hand to hand though, use it to early and the information becomes useless, because the future changes, use it to late and you might leave yourself vulnerable, because it´s to strong. The one instance of Duralmumin+Atium is described by Elend as "mind-numbing. All became white around him as knowledge saturated his mind." At the same time Elend botched his sword attack agains Marsh (it got caught on one of his spikes) and took an axe to the chest. Not the best field-test, if I might say so.

 

Elend very specifically chose to lose that duel:

Sylos (15 October 2008)

I was happy when Elend finally burned duralumin with atium. I was holding my breath hoping that someone would eventually do it. However we didn't really get any info as to what Elend experienced. Does a duralumin-enhanced atium burn allow a person to see significantly farther into the future? If so, being that Elend's army was dying all around him did he get to see into the afterlife? Also if you could tell us what he saw that would be awesome. Did something he saw make him not want to avoid Marshes strike?

On a similar note if someone burned electrum with duralumin would they get to see significantly into their own future?

Brandon Sanderson (16 October 2008)

There is much here that I can't say, but I'll give as much as I can. Elend saw Preservation's ultimate plan, and Elend's own part in it. What he saw made him realize he didn't want to kill Marsh, and that his own death would actually help save the world. Like a master chess player, he suddenly saw and understand every possible move his enemy could make. He saw that Ruin was check-mated, because there was one thing that Ruin was not willing to do. Something that both Elend and Vin could do, if needed. And it's what they did.

So, in answer to your question, Elend stayed his hand. This is one of the reasons why I changed my mind and decided that Marsh had to live through the end of the book. Elend spared him; I needed to too.

(source)

 

The way Brandon describes this makes me think there's no way Vin could lose against Szeth if she burned atium at the right time. Elend could have killed Marsh is basically what he says ("Elend stayed his hand").

 

I will admit it is possible. I do not think it is the case, but I will give you that, it could be inferred from the evidence on hand that possibly Szeth's healing ability had been reconed between books.

 

I'm not even sure it had to be retconned. Again, Szeth seems like he gains in power throughout WoK - he mentions during his last assassination scene (I think?) that he takes in more Stormlight than he ever had before. He heals and basically ignores a spear wound, when at the start of WoK he figured it would take hours for him to recover him a punch to the face.

 

In regards to the Pushed coin: yeah, Szeth can't do much if he doesn't know it's coming and doesn't know Vin can do it. I'm less convinced on your physics of Pushing and Pulling, since I believe the force drops off with your distance from a metal based on vague recollections of Vin hanging in the mist super high up. I'm not particularly well-versed in physics, particularly the physics of ballistics, so I'll give you the point since you've spent time on it and I am not willing, but I do think physics get wonky with Allomancy.

 

Edit: Looked it up, I am very confident that force is not constant:

The ground disappeared below, and the line of blue pointing toward the ingot grew fainter and fainter. What happens if it disappears? She began to slow. The fainter the line grew, the more her speed decreased. [Mooglenote: because gravity is constant, if she's slowing down, her Push must be getting weaker.] After just a few moments of flight, she crept to a halt—and was left hanging in the air above a nearly invisible blue line.

...

dark ocean of damned souls. “You don’t have to worry too much,” Kelsier said. “It’s easier to balance in the air if you have a tripod of anchors, but you can do fine with a single anchor. Your body is used to balancing itself. Part of what you’ve been doing since you learned to walk transfers to Allomancy. As long as you stay still, hanging at the very edge of your Pushing ability, you’ll be pretty stable—your mind and body will correct any slight deviations from the base center of your anchor below, keeping you from falling to the sides.

 

Because the force decreases with distance, you can levitate - but you need to be at the edge of your Pushing ability. I think it would take duralumin for it to have the energy of a sniper rifle, and even then I'm not quite sure it's there (since duralumin burns in the barest fraction of a second, air resistance kind of becomes a factor?). Again, though, I haven't read your posts in detail since my physics knowledge is lacking, so I will concede the point.

 

As mentioned in the discussion with Shaggai, the reverse lashing, when used a little amount of stormlight, was used on two spears thrown down a hallway, and when arrows were shot. In both situations gravity is already acting on the objects, so they are being pulled towards the earth which is reducing the strength of their flight, as well as wind resistance and the force driving them ends once the spears left the hands, and the arrows left the bows.

 

Gravity acting on objects with Reverse Lashings is incredibly unclear - note how this says that a Reverse Lashing works better on things in flight, which basically makes no sense. (Why would something be on the ground matter with the force generated?)

REVERSE LASHING: GIVING AN OBJECT A GRAVITATIONAL PULL I believe this may actually be a specialized version of the Basic Lashing. This type of Lashing required the least amount of Stormlight of any of the three Lashings. The Windrunner would infuse something, give a mental command, and create a pull to the object that yanked other objects toward it. At its heart, this Lashing created a bubble around the object that imitated its spiritual link to the ground beneath it. As such, it was much harder for the Lashing to affect objects touching the ground, where their link to the planet was strongest. Objects falling or in flight were the easiest to influence. Other objects could be affected, but the Stormlight and skill required were much more substantial.

 

Also the example you give of kaladin not using a lot of stormlight on the bridge, was when it was passive, and only protected him. Later he draws ALL the arrows to his shield, and exhausts ALL his stormlight to the point of passing out. That is why given the velocity, and the strength i feel szeth would have to do like kaladin and exhaust his entire supply to affect it.

 

Note that Kaladin brings all the arrows to his shield, and he does it so hard that they pierce the shield and hit his arm, which is to say he gave them a ridiculous velocity. Arrows managed to pierce bones and wood. He didn't have to do that - he could have pulled much less hard and the arrows would not have hit his shield and still would have missed Bridge Four. He panicked, and overdid it. Perhaps Kaladin would have to put a ridiculous amount of Stormlight into a Reverse Lashing to avoid a Pushed coin, but I don't think this particular situation tells us the complete picture, since he could have accomplished the same effect with less Stormlight if he were more practiced. (I don't think Szeth is practiced enough, so Vin still wins on this point, though.)

 

To summarise my position: originally I thought it was a clear win for Szeth, but now I'm not so sure. I'd like Brandon to sit down for five minutes and figure out what the result is because only he knows how the physics of all this works (how is gravity a "spiritual link" ???).

Edited December 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Edgedancer]

 

Elend very specifically chose to lose that duel:

 

The way Brandon describes this makes me think there's no way Vin could lose against Szeth if she burned atium at the right time. Elend could have killed Marsh is basically what he says ("Elend stayed his hand").

Huh... I can´t really argue with that but in the book missing that strike feels so... accidental.

[Moogle]

Huh... I can´t really argue with that but in the book missing that strike feels so... accidental.

 

I re-read the section, and it doesn't seem that bad:

Blue lines sprayed from his chest like rays of light. But those were all overshadowed by one thing. Atium plus duralumin. In a flash of knowledge, Elend felt a mind-numbing wealth of information. All became white around him as knowledge saturated his mind. “I see now,” he whispered as the vision faded, and along with it his remaining metals. The battlefield returned. He stood upon it, his sword piercing Marsh’s neck. It had gotten caught on the spikehead jutting out of Marsh’s back, between the shoulder blades.

 

Marsh still should have died from that, but for his goldminds. I think? I kinda get what you're saying, though. I think the section would have worked better if he hadn't struck Marsh at all.

[Edgedancer]

 

I re-read the section, and it doesn't seem that bad:

 

Marsh still should have died from that, but for his goldminds. I think? I kinda get what you're saying, though. I think the section would have worked better if he hadn't struck Marsh at all.

Maybe he put on a show for Vin? That would also explain why he bothered to burn pewter long enough to gloat.

[Pathfinder]

 

Elend very specifically chose to lose that duel:

 

The way Brandon describes this makes me think there's no way Vin could lose against Szeth if she burned atium at the right time. Elend could have killed Marsh is basically what he says ("Elend stayed his hand").

 

 

I'm not even sure it had to be retconned. Again, Szeth seems like he gains in power throughout WoK - he mentions during his last assassination scene (I think?) that he takes in more Stormlight than he ever had before. He heals and basically ignores a spear wound, when at the start of WoK he figured it would take hours for him to recover him a punch to the face.

 

In regards to the Pushed coin: yeah, Szeth can't do much if he doesn't know it's coming and doesn't know Vin can do it. I'm less convinced on your physics of Pushing and Pulling, since I believe the force drops off with your distance from a metal based on vague recollections of Vin hanging in the mist super high up. I'm not particularly well-versed in physics, particularly the physics of ballistics, so I'll give you the point since you've spent time on it and I am not willing, but I do think physics get wonky with Allomancy.

 

Edit: Looked it up, I am very confident that force is not constant:

 

Because the force decreases with distance, you can levitate - but you need to be at the edge of your Pushing ability.

 

 

Gravity acting on objects with Reverse Lashings is incredibly unclear - note how this says that a Reverse Lashing works better on things in flight, which basically makes no sense. (Why would something be on the ground matter with the force generated?)

 

 

Note that Kaladin brings all the arrows to his shield, and he does it so hard that they pierce the shield and hit his arm, which is to say he gave them a ridiculous velocity. Arrows managed to pierce bones and wood. He didn't have to do that - he could have pulled much less hard and the arrows would not have hit his shield and still would have missed Bridge Four. He panicked, and overdid it. Perhaps Kaladin would have to put a ridiculous amount of Stormlight into a Reverse Lashing to avoid a Pushed coin, but I don't think this particular situation tells us the complete picture, since he could have accomplished the same effect with less Stormlight if he were more practiced. (I don't think Szeth is practiced enough, so Vin still wins on this point, though.)

 

To summarise my position: originally I thought it was a clear win for Szeth, but now I'm not so sure. I'd like Brandon to sit down for five minutes and figure out what the result is because only he knows how the physics of all this works (how is gravity a "spiritual link" ???).

The metal she is pushing on is the extent of the push reach, but consider the fact that she is still in the air pushing on a coin means at that distance she can still bring to fore 120 pounds of force. Unfortunately I do not recall the height of the wall being specifically stated, but my impression from how she flew up, saying that the wall wizzed by her, was that it is a very respectiable height. A height that when laid straight down to distance, I think would be sufficient enough to reach Szeth without reaching the limit of her influence. In other words there is a steel "bubble" of influence that she can push her 120 pounds worth at, unless he is a significant distance away, he is not beyond it so she would still be able to bring to fore 120 pounds of force through its entire flight to him. Also I recall the premise I made to my friend who did the calculations was based on Szeth being 30 feet away. So unless the wall Vin shot up was under 30 feet, I think it could be said that the push could be full powered during its entire trajectory to Szeth. Though unfortunately we do not have hard numbers, so that is the best I could come to a solid answer. 

 

If I recall correctly, though I forget where I read this, was the reason for an object being in flight being able to be easier to manipulate, is because it is further away from the gravitational pull of the planet, so it is easier for an opposing gravitational field to act on it. Now intuitively from what we know of gravity, a few feet above the ground is not a significant enough reduction in gravitational affect for it to matter, but I think that was what the statement was going for. damnation, I really do swear I read that somewhere, but I can't remember where. 

 

Lol I agree and disagree. I see the reverse lashing as a sort of aura. So let us picture a line of five people. Kaladin is the center person, with two people on his left, and two on his right. Five parshendi fire five arrows at the five people. One arrow for each person. If Kal wanted the arrow aimed at him to his his shield, He doesn't have to do anything, just raise his shield. If he wants the arrow directly to his left and right, he has to use his aura to draw it to him. This results in pulling the arrow already traveling at him harder increasing its velocity and force. But Kal also has to pull the arrows from the guys two over. Which means he has to put even MORE energy into it, to pull those two arrows, so they hit his shield normally, but the two arrows next to him hit his shield harder, and the original arrow aimed at him hit with a force to almost penetrate the shield. So you see in this example, he did not over use his stormlight. He used exactly how much he needed to, to alter the trajectories of all five arrows, but since in order to alter them, he had to create a force pulling at himself, he increased the velocity and strength of the arrows already on target and that is why they penetrated the shield to a degree. 

 

WAIT! Maybe that is why Brandon says gravitational powers are spiritual? It is our spiritual connection to our planet's gravity, and by creating another gravitational field to pull the object away, you are trying to connect it spiritually to that gravitational force instead, so the closer to the planet, the stronger the spiritual connection, the further away, the weaker the spiritual connection, so the easier it is for another gravitational force to over ride it? I dunno, does any of that sound at all like it makes sense, cause im reaching lol.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

...

 

Well, you got me interested enough to overcome my natural apathy for trying to do the physics on this sort of thing. I actually sat down and did a few calculations.

 

A few things:

• If we assume equal and opposite forces... well, that's pretty blatantly not how it works. (Actually, it might be; see later in the post.) Vin, when she Pushes a coin (presumably at your 120 pound estimate), is not pushed back herself. There's no opposite reaction. Assuming she puts out 120 pounds of force for 30 feet (I converted them roughly to metric), I came up with a rough estimate of her coins traveling at around 30 km/h minus air resistance. Which is... kind of ridiculous. And what's more, she Pushes herself at significantly more than 120 pounds of force at close range, since otherwise she wouldn't zoom up in the air.
• Furthermore, if she could put out that kind of force reliably on any piece of metal, a terrifying weapon for her to use is specks of metal. A small cloud of metallic dust would rip someone's face off in gory fashion. She doesn't do this, which suggests to me that the force on the metal is not, in fact, 120 pounds (plus whatever), and is in fact proportional to the mass of the metal itself. In other words, I'm suggesting that Vin can provide a certain amount of acceleration on metal, rather than a certain amount of force.
• I note that as she flies up to levitate, the blue lines of her anchors become thinner and "weaker", so she can't put as much force into her Push on them. Small specks of metal have similarly small lines - the bigger the metal, the thicker the blue line. This further supports my conjecture above.
• Because there is not an equal and opposite reaction of force, I am not at all convinced that just because she can lift her own 120 lbs. into the air, the coin must necessarily be given that exact same force.
• However, despite what I said above, we have examples of scenes where Allomancers Push heavier metal objects, and they certainly don't zoom as if they experiencing the same acceleration as a coin. This hurts my speculation massively.
• Because I was assuming 120 lbs. on the coin, I came to the conclusion that force was not conserved. However, there's plenty in the series to suggest that it is... so I'm tentatively saying that the force on the coin must be much less, else Vin would go flying backwards.
• In conclusion: the physics of Allomancy are confusing, and I am not quite convinced of the "a coin shot by Vin is basically at sniper-rifle level speeds". I recall someone making a post on "elastic collisions" and using that to explain Pushes and Pulls; I'll look into that. I am, uh, un-conceding the point until I satisfy my curiosity.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

 

Well, you got me interested enough to overcome my natural apathy for trying to do the physics on this sort of thing. I actually sat down and did a few calculations.

 

A few things:

• If we assume equal and opposite forces... well, that's pretty blatantly not how it works. (Actually, it might be; see later in the post.) Vin, when she Pushes a coin (presumably at your 120 pound estimate), is not pushed back herself. There's no opposite reaction. Assuming she puts out 120 pounds of force for 30 feet (I converted them roughly to metric), I came up with a rough estimate of her coins traveling at around 30 km/h minus air resistance. Which is... kind of ridiculous. And what's more, she Pushes herself at significantly more than 120 pounds of force at close range, since otherwise she wouldn't zoom up in the air.
• Furthermore, if she could put out that kind of force reliably on any piece of metal, a terrifying weapon for her to use is specks of metal. A small cloud of metallic dust would rip someone's face off in gory fashion. She doesn't do this, which suggests to me that the force on the metal is not, in fact, 120 pounds (plus whatever), and is in fact proportional to the mass of the metal itself. In other words, I'm suggesting that Vin can provide a certain amount of acceleration on metal, rather than a certain amount of force.
• I note that as she flies up to levitate, the blue lines of her anchors become thinner and "weaker", so she can't put as much force into her Push on them. Small specks of metal have similarly small lines - the bigger the metal, the thicker the blue line. This further supports my conjecture above.
• Because there is not an equal and opposite reaction of force, I am not at all convinced that just because she can lift her own 120 lbs. into the air, the coin must necessarily be given that exact same force.
• However, despite what I said above, we have examples of scenes where Allomancers Push heavier metal objects, and they certainly don't zoom as if they experiencing the same acceleration as a coin. This hurts my speculation massively.
• Because I was assuming 120 lbs. on the coin, I came to the conclusion that force was not conserved. However, there's plenty in the series to suggest that it is... so I'm tentatively saying that the force on the coin must be much less, else Vin would go flying backwards.
• In conclusion: the physics of Allomancy are confusing, and I am not quite convinced of the "a coin shot by Vin is basically at sniper-rifle level speeds". I recall someone making a post on "elastic collisions" and using that to explain Pushes and Pulls; I'll look into that. I am, uh, un-conceding the point until I satisfy my curiosity.

 

1. When you push a coin across a table with your finger, are you pushed back? Technically by Newton's law, yes you are, but the force is so negligible in comparison to you, that you do not notice it. Same to for coin shooting the coin.

 

2. Oh I utterly agree, expanding on the premise brings it to ludicrous levels. When I explained the scenario to my friend, he said based on his calculations it would reach the speed of 2130m/s, which would exceed its terminal velocity and vaporize it. I admit if we take it to its full extent, then there are a lot of things we can ask why the character's did not do, but that comes up in all of Brandon's books. How many times have you seen threads to do something like Wax's weight manipulation, positing that if you could compound weight you would create a black hole? I am just trying to extrapolate based on the information we have, how it could be employed in the situation. Given our understanding of how steel pushing words in order to make Vin fly, since it is explicitly said its your personal body weight vs the object, then she has to bringing not only 120 pounds of force down, but MORE than that to push herself AWAY from the ground, otherwise she goes no where. That's why the extremely overweight have the danger of their legs failing. The structural integrity of the bones in their legs, are not sufficient enough to maintain enough force pushing back against the ground, to remain standing. That line of allomancy Vin is pushing on that is holding her up in the air is her "leg" If it wasn't 120 pounds of force, she would be falling, if it was more, she would still be flying further. So actually this would change the calculations to being even more insane, because closer to her is far greater than 120 pounds, since she can thrown herself in the air by it, and only till you get 30 or 40 feet out does it decrease to 120 pounds of force, and you have to go even further before it decreases to nothing. 

 

I include the link below less for the formulae shown, but more for the illustration of how I see it in my mind:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force#mediaviewer/File:Freebodydiagram3_pn.svg

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

1. When you push a coin across a table with your finger, are you pushed back? Technically by Newton's law, yes you are, but the force is so negligible in comparison to you, that you do not notice it. Same to for coin shooting the coin.

 

No, that's not how it works given your assumptions. Newton's law is that the forces are equal. If Vin is putting 120 lbs. of force on the coin, she needs to be experiencing 120 lbs. back as well, which means she should go flying (since, as we've established, she's lifted by 120 lb. forces). If Newton's law applies, anyways. This leads to one conclusion: either the force on the coin is not 120 lbs, or Vin is not pushed back with the same force she applies to the objects.

 

I lean towards the first explanation, because it means coins aren't accelerated to horrifying speeds. If coins are not pushed with that force, that gives a significant boost to the Reverse Lasher, who doesn't need to spend as much Stormlight to deflect it.

[Pathfinder]

No, that's not how it works given your assumptions. Newton's law is that the forces are equal. If Vin is putting 120 lbs. of force on the coin, she needs to be experiencing 120 lbs. back as well, which means she should go flying (since, as we've established, she's lifted by 120 lb. forces). If Newton's law applies, anyways. This leads to one conclusion: either the force on the coin is not 120 lbs, or Vin is not pushed back with the same force she applies to the objects.

 

I lean towards the first explanation, because it means coins aren't accelerated to horrifying speeds. If coins are not pushed with that force, that gives a significant boost to the Reverse Lasher, who doesn't need to spend as much Stormlight to deflect it.

No, if Vin is putting 120 lbs of force on the coin, the coin needs to push back 120 pounds of force to REMAIN STATIONARY. A coin is what? A few ounces or so? So the resulting force on the push is like 119.7? The conservation of force means the pounds of force is translated into the velocity that the coin travels. 

 

The original form of Newton's second law states that the net force acting upon an object is equal to the rate at which its momentum changes with time. If the mass of the object is constant, this law implies that the acceleration of an object is directly proportional to the net force acting on the object, is in the direction of the net force, and is inversely proportional to the mass of the object

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pathfinder