Cosmere Battle Royale; AKA Who Would Win

[gjustice99 she/her]

Szeth would win with ease. Basic Lashing gives better flight than Allomantic steel and allows the launching of objects other than coins, Reverse Lashing negates all the benefits of shooting coins at people, Stormlight is basically Pewter+, and Shardblades beat glass daggers.

Vin could kill Szeth easily. Atium could allow her to see what he does in advance and he would have absolutely no way to counter it.

[Shaggai]

You did not account for everything, you know.

First of all, Kel (or maybe older Vin) might be able to understand and counter the Reverse Lashing.

Then you get the Full, which would be rather useless most of the time. Well, unless they are in a closed area, where the quality of flight is a negligable factor.

I admit, the Basic is rather more useful.

But you do have a few more metals to mention. Chiefly, Brass and Zinc. She can throw his emotions off, which can give her a leg up, if timed correctly. I can leave Dura, Tin, Cad, Elec and Atium alone... but they do give her benefits. It all comes down to which metals are allowed and the skill of the metalborn (as Vin was just an example - Kel would fare differently. as would "the Lord Mistborn" after inception. need I remind you that Szeth is an extremely well-trained, capable, experienced killer, and Vin had but a few years to perfect her art? after-ascension, fifty-year-old Spook might be a better comparison)

You can't counter the Reverse Lashing. It attracts airborne objects. You can't shoot coins, which takes away the entire ranged advantage of the Mistborn, and since it's possible to use Stormlight to throw objects which aren't metal, you can't use Steel for protection. Kelsier's focus was with Iron and Steel, so he would do even worse than Vin, who's got an instinctual mastery of Allomancy.

 

Yes, she can affect his emotions, but Szeth is very good at ignoring his emotions. Remember, he's Truthless. He's pretty much constantly forced to break the holiest rules of his religion. He would shove down any emotions which might dissuade others.

 

Vin could kill Szeth easily. Atium could allow her to see what he does in advance and he would have absolutely no way to counter it.

Fly upwards, wait until Vin launches herself up at him, then use the flight advantages of Gravitation to get under her with a Shardblade. Atium is worthless when you're in midair and moving on a predetermined path. Or launch large objects at her to get her distracted, then come at her with Stormlight-enhanced speed, get in close, kill her with the Blade, and heal up whatever wounds she inflicted. If the large objects aren't good enough, put a Full Lashing on the ground right as he gets close.

[Moogle]

Vin could kill Szeth easily. Atium could allow her to see what he does in advance and he would have absolutely no way to counter it.

 

Szeth doesn't need to counter it. Vin could stab him... and he'd just heal. Vin lacks the ability to really do a whole lot to Szeth. I suppose a duralumin punch through his head might be enough, though? But good luck getting past that Blade.

 

Also of note is that Kaladin seems to get a sort of atium-like effect of his own:

Instinct . . . then something deeper . . . guided his steps. He danced between those Blades, cool air wrapping around him. And for a moment, he felt—impossibly— that he could have dodged just as well if his eyes had been closed.

 

Szeth might get something similar.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

Szeth doesn't need to counter it. Vin could stab him... and he'd just heal. Vin lacks the ability to really do a whole lot to Szeth. I suppose a duralumin punch through his head might be enough, though? But good luck getting past that Blade.

 

Also of note is that Kaladin seems to get a sort of atium-like effect of his own:

 

Szeth might get something similar.

That seems like a special Windrunner sensing-the-air thing. I doubt Szeth would get it. He might still be able to react to Vin's reaction, like she did to Zane, especially with Stormlight's enhancement.

 

(Also, a couple of posts appear to have disappeared from this thread. What's going on?)

[Pathfinder]

A shardblade is metal, and WoB said it could be pushed or pulled, but would need a very strong push or pull to do so. I think Dularium would handle that nicely. The issue with gravitation affecting airborn objects, is that when you shoot an arrow, you suffer from wind resistance reducing the strength of the shot over time which would allow it to be affected by gravitation. A steel push can be maintained at distance, so Vin could shoot a coin and let momentum carry or, or maintain the push all the way through, reducing the effectiveness of gravity or requiring Szeth to increase the amount of stormlight used in order to affect it. Couple that with Dularium, and it would be very difficult for gravitation to affect that shot. It is possible, but it would require a huge investment of stormlight into that surge that takes away from healing, flying, and speed. I am not saying Szeth will win or lose, I need to read up a bit more on this thread to catch up, but I just wanted to point out those two aspects. 

[lol_king he/him]

I think Szeth's stormlight reserves will last less than Vin's metal reserves, so vin could just hide and keep track of him using bronze, and stay out of sight until his magical pulse starts to fade, then come out and kill him.

She could also try knocking the sword out of his hand maybe by atium combat or throwing a projectile at his hand.

Do we know if lashings work on aluminium? If they if they don't, then a good pewter/tin/atium enhanced throw at his hand or even his head would do it.

And lastly, if she has access to metals discovered later such as cadmium or nicrosil, then she could use time bubbles. slow down the time, think of a good strategy, or even sling a coinshot at him if she is skilled enough to pull it off from inside the bubble. Hide and speed up time until szeth runs out and then kill him. Maybe nicrosil could be used to make szeth use all of his stormlight at once.

This is all theoretical of course, but could work.

[Pathfinder]

Also, when we are talking Szeth using a shardblade, are we talking an honorblade, a shardblade, or a sprenblade? Honorblade uses up a ton of stormlight, so he would last even less time than a radiant would, and he does not get Kal's windy sense. If we are talking a shardblade, then it takes 10 heartbeats to summon, a dularium push would knock it out of his hand and make it puff into mist, leaving him disarmed. Sprenblade is an entirely different matter. 

[Shaggai]

A shardblade is metal, and WoB said it could be pushed or pulled, but would need a very strong push or pull to do so. I think Dularium would handle that nicely. The issue with gravitation affecting airborn objects, is that when you shoot an arrow, you suffer from wind resistance reducing the strength of the shot over time which would allow it to be affected by gravitation. A steel push can be maintained at distance, so Vin could shoot a coin and let momentum carry or, or maintain the push all the way through, reducing the effectiveness of gravity or requiring Szeth to increase the amount of stormlight used in order to affect it. Couple that with Dularium, and it would be very difficult for gravitation to affect that shot. It is possible, but it would require a huge investment of stormlight into that surge that takes away from healing, flying, and speed. I am not saying Szeth will win or lose, I need to read up a bit more on this thread to catch up, but I just wanted to point out those two aspects. 

A Steelpush can't do anything against a sideways force, and Szeth can resummon his Blade if he drops it..

 

I think Szeth's stormlight reserves will last less than Vin's metal reserves, so vin could just hide and keep track of him using bronze, and stay out of sight until his magical pulse starts to fade, then come out and kill him.

She could also try knocking the sword out of his hand maybe by atium combat or throwing a projectile at his hand.

Do we know if lashings work on aluminium? If they if they don't, then a good pewter/tin/atium enhanced throw at his hand or even his head would do it.

And lastly, if she has access to metals discovered later such as cadmium or nicrosil, then she could use time bubbles. slow down the time, think of a good strategy, or even sling a coinshot at him if she is skilled enough to pull it off from inside the bubble. Hide and speed up time until szeth runs out and then kill him. Maybe nicrosil could be used to make szeth use all of his stormlight at once.

This is all theoretical of course, but could work.

We haven't set the metal reserves, but Szeth can cut up the scenery until he finds her if necessary. Atium is Vin's only advantage, and it burns fast.

[Pathfinder]

A Steelpush can't do anything against a sideways force, and Szeth can resummon his Blade if he drops it..

 

We haven't set the metal reserves, but Szeth can cut up the scenery until he finds her if necessary. Atium is Vin's only advantage, and it burns fast.

Use of gravitation as originally stated in reference to projectiles requires touch. Szeth had to touch the wall, Kal had to touch the shield, so by your example, where is Szeth touching to cause a sideways force? I have included a quote from the coppermind for reference:

 

"Reverse Lashing-By using the Reverse Lashing, a Surgebinder can increase the gravitational pull of an object, allowing them to subtly pull nearby objects toward it. The Surgebinder must maintain contact with the object to Reverse Lash it."

 

I already covered this, is Szeth using an honorblade? If so his stormlight runs out even faster, as well as if it gets knocked out of his hands it does not disappear, he will need to retrieve it. Is it a shardblade? He will need to take 10 heartbeats to resummon it, during which he is weaponless, and Vin can just disarm him again each time it is summoned to his hand. Is it a sprenblade? That is the only scenario I would give it to you as the weapon can change on the fly, and be summoned immediately, but Szeth has not bonded a spren yet, so it is not applicable

 

Unless you set up the stakes to grossly favor Szeth in supply, the stormlight will run out before Vin's metal reserves, and even faster if he is wielding an honor blade as he did in the book. 

 

edit: oh! also remembered one other thing. Szeth draws on ONE resource, Vin on MULTIPLE. If she runs out of one, she still has the others. True Szeth can "compound" healing or lashing, but that reduces for the rest of his abilities. So if he increases the gravitation 10 fold in order to counter the steel dularium push, most of his stormlight would be depleted making him move slower, heal less efficiently. If he focused the stormlight on healing serious wounds that she inflicts, he has less stormlight and thereby would have weaker lashes and so on. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Twenty@20 he/him]

...if it gets knocked out of his hands it does not disappear, he will need to retrieve it.

Honor blades can also be resummoned with 10 heartbeats.

At the tenth beat of his heart, his Shardblade dropped into his waiting hand.

-Way of Kings Prologue

[TheArcanist he/him]

Maybe it's just a psychological thing- Pattern could be summoned into his blade form effectively instantaneously; the whole "10 heartbeats" thing was for bonded Shardblades. That being said, the Honorblade is bound to him, so that rule probably applies.

 

Better question- does Vin have her Hemalurgic eating or not? Because if she doesn't, she could pull on the mists for power just as easily as Szeth pulls on Stormlight. Put them both in a storm that combines a Highstorm and the Mist, and you'd have a ludicrously protracted- and epic -fight.

[Moogle]

Honor blades can also be resummoned with 10 heartbeats.

 

They can be instant, apparently:

macros

Q:  Based on what we know currently about the ten heartbeats, why does Szeth require ten heartbeats to bring forth his Honorblade?

A:  Perception is a very important part of how these things all work, and remember, the Honorblades work differently from everything else. Everything was based upon them. Why don't you read and find out what's going on there, but remember, the characters' perception is very important.

(source)

 

Kalak certainly doesn't note that there's a delay when he summons it in the Prelude.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

So then the question is, are we treating Szeth as he is in the book with his honorblade, or are we altering the character for the fight? Same stands for Vin. Can we establish parameters?

 

My impression was that we were talking about Vin with access to atium and dularium, but not bendalloy nor cadmium. That Szeth was wielding an honorblade, which is why he would have windrunner abilities, but also have the limitations mentioned while he wielded it. If anyone feels that is unbalanced in favor of one party or another, I would be happy to discuss the limitations and then apply them to the hypothetical bout. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Shaggai]

Use of gravitation as originally stated in reference to projectiles requires touch. Szeth had to touch the wall, Kal had to touch the shield, so by your example, where is Szeth touching to cause a sideways force? I have included a quote from the coppermind for reference:

 

"Reverse Lashing-By using the Reverse Lashing, a Surgebinder can increase the gravitational pull of an object, allowing them to subtly pull nearby objects toward it. The Surgebinder must maintain contact with the object to Reverse Lash it."

 

I already covered this, is Szeth using an honorblade? If so his stormlight runs out even faster, as well as if it gets knocked out of his hands it does not disappear, he will need to retrieve it. Is it a shardblade? He will need to take 10 heartbeats to resummon it, during which he is weaponless, and Vin can just disarm him again each time it is summoned to his hand. Is it a sprenblade? That is the only scenario I would give it to you as the weapon can change on the fly, and be summoned immediately, but Szeth has not bonded a spren yet, so it is not applicable

 

Unless you set up the stakes to grossly favor Szeth in supply, the stormlight will run out before Vin's metal reserves, and even faster if he is wielding an honor blade as he did in the book. 

 

edit: oh! also remembered one other thing. Szeth draws on ONE resource, Vin on MULTIPLE. If she runs out of one, she still has the others. True Szeth can "compound" healing or lashing, but that reduces for the rest of his abilities. So if he increases the gravitation 10 fold in order to counter the steel dularium push, most of his stormlight would be depleted making him move slower, heal less efficiently. If he focused the stormlight on healing serious wounds that she inflicts, he has less stormlight and thereby would have weaker lashes and so on. 

Szeth picks up a rock and Reverse Lashes it. Vin cannot shoot him. Szeth wins. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Szeth has a massive advantage while infused, so for Vin to survive more than a few seconds, she'll need atium. Atium burns very quickly, probably as fast as Stormlight gets used up. A few minutes worth of Stormlight, a few minutes worth of atium, which will run out first? We haven't set the amounts. If she uses duralumin with Steel to knock his Blade away, she has no more steel, and then ten heartbeats later Szeth has the advantage again. I'm saying it's an Honorblade, because it's the only weapon we've seen Szeth use. It doesn't use up Stormlight so incredibly fast that he wouldn't be able to win. Remember his fight with Gavilar. He was using all sorts of Lashings, and making good use of his extra speed and strength, up against a master swordsman wearing Shardplate and wielding a Blade, and he still had enough Stormlight at the end to get to the ground safely.

[lol_king he/him]

Szeth regularly uses stormlight present in his surroundings, while assassinating gavilar he used a lot of stormlight from the lamps present in the hallways etc. And he still had to use stormlight from gavilar's shardplate to heal himself completely. And in a neutral territory for Szeth vs. Vin fight he would probably have only what he could carry. Same for vin, but her metal reserves last a lot longer, and if she runs out of something due to duralumin, she can just down another vial, and they are a lot les bulky than spheres szeth has to carry. Also Szeths stormlight will run out whether he uses it or not, so his Time is limited, Vin has no such restriction. Also sphere pouches can also become vulnerable targets if Vin figures out their purpose, even if all it does is inconvenience him.

Edited November 20, 2014 by lol_king

[Pathfinder]

Szeth picks up a rock and Reverse Lashes it. Vin cannot shoot him. Szeth wins. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Szeth has a massive advantage while infused, so for Vin to survive more than a few seconds, she'll need atium. Atium burns very quickly, probably as fast as Stormlight gets used up. A few minutes worth of Stormlight, a few minutes worth of atium, which will run out first? We haven't set the amounts. If she uses duralumin with Steel to knock his Blade away, she has no more steel, and then ten heartbeats later Szeth has the advantage again. I'm saying it's an Honorblade, because it's the only weapon we've seen Szeth use. It doesn't use up Stormlight so incredibly fast that he wouldn't be able to win. Remember his fight with Gavilar. He was using all sorts of Lashings, and making good use of his extra speed and strength, up against a master swordsman wearing Shardplate and wielding a Blade, and he still had enough Stormlight at the end to get to the ground safely.

You stated a sideways force, holding a rock in your hand away from your body is not far enough away, with enough radius affect, with enough power to turn away a maintained dularium steel pushed coin. If you like I would be happy to research the math involved, but Szeth would have to EASILY spend as much, if not more than Kal did when he drew ALL the parshendi arrows to his shield AND that drained Kal's ENTIRE reserve. So please do have Szeth use his entire stormlight supply to stop one coin, so Vin can then use a powerful steel pull to yank Szeth's honorblade away, and then follow up with a pewter flared enhance punch that caves Szeth's face in.

 

Can Szeth do something else during that exchange? Of course, but I don't think reverse lashing does what you think it does 

 

Yet again, it has been pointed out on numerous occasions stormlight runs out far faster than metals for numerous reasons.

 

First, as lol_king mentioned, it continually drains regardless its use. So basically you are operating with a bucket full of water that has holes in it.

 

Second as lol_king also pointed out, Szeth had to continually drain spheres from his own supply, from the surrounding supply of lights, and the enemies armor. In this posited bout, Szeth ONLY has his own to draw upon. If having a sack full of spheres required Szeth to continually scavenge for other sources, then how many spheres do you realistically expect him to carry around for this fight to accomplish all you say he can do?

 

Thirdly the most I will give you is the burn rate for stormlight and the burn rate of atium MAY be about the same, which means Vin just burns atium, preventing death. When her atium and his stormlight is gone, Szeth is now human like anyone else, while Vin still has ALL her metals.

 

Finally as I again have continually mentioned, Szeth is using an Honorblade. Is an honorblade insanely powerful? Probably yes, but at this stage in the book, with Szeth as was given the blade functions as such: inefficient use of stormlight, provides two windrunner surges, remains only in blade form and takes 10 heartbeats to summon.

 

If when more books are released, and we know more of what an honorblade can do, you want to retcon and base the bout on that? Then matters would be totally different. if you wanted to take Szeth at the end of Stormlight with Nightblade, then again totally different. But as posited, this fight is not the open and shut case that you present.

[gjustice99 she/her]

So please do have Szeth use his entire stormlight supply to stop one coin, so Vin can then use a powerful steel pull to yank Szeth's honorblade away, and then follow up with a pewter flared enhance punch that caves Szeth's face in.

As much as I want Vin to win this fight, do iron and steel work on shard/honorblades?

[Edgedancer he/him]

As much as I want Vin to win this fight, do iron and steel work on shard/honorblades?

Only in combination with Duralumin.

[Pathfinder]

So I find I genuinely want to calculate this out, to get a definitive answer, but I am running into some roadblocks, so any help would be appreciated. I did some research and i know Kinetic energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2 . Now I found a page that I have linked below, where they define based on that equation the relative kinetic energy an arrow, a light spear (Szeth's situation), a pistol and a rifle among others have. I could say for simplicity sake that a coin shot from an allomancer would equate to the pistol, and a dularium would equate to a rifle, but that is my own assumption based on description rather than calculation. Thinking upon the equation, the mass of the coin would be similar to that of the bullet, but since the force is maintained through the entire push (in my example, i know the push doesn't HAVE to be maintained), and is opposed to the mass of the allomancer, would I multiply Vin's weight with the weight of the coin, and then divide it by the pull of gravity (32.2 ft./sec/sec)? Or would I add it? Or would that be entered elsewhere?

 

I feel like somewhere else on this board someone else with a far greater understanding of these calculations has already done this. If so can someone point me in that direction? Or help me figure this out?

 

edit: heres the link i forgot to include lol  http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm

Edited November 20, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Shaggai]

You stated a sideways force, holding a rock in your hand away from your body is not far enough away, with enough radius affect, with enough power to turn away a maintained dularium steel pushed coin. If you like I would be happy to research the math involved, but Szeth would have to EASILY spend as much, if not more than Kal did when he drew ALL the parshendi arrows to his shield AND that drained Kal's ENTIRE reserve. So please do have Szeth use his entire stormlight supply to stop one coin, so Vin can then use a powerful steel pull to yank Szeth's honorblade away, and then follow up with a pewter flared enhance punch that caves Szeth's face in.

 

Can Szeth do something else during that exchange? Of course, but I don't think reverse lashing does what you think it does 

 

Yet again, it has been pointed out on numerous occasions stormlight runs out far faster than metals for numerous reasons.

 

First, as lol_king mentioned, it continually drains regardless its use. So basically you are operating with a bucket full of water that has holes in it.

 

Second as lol_king also pointed out, Szeth had to continually drain spheres from his own supply, from the surrounding supply of lights, and the enemies armor. In this posited bout, Szeth ONLY has his own to draw upon. If having a sack full of spheres required Szeth to continually scavenge for other sources, then how many spheres do you realistically expect him to carry around for this fight to accomplish all you say he can do?

 

Thirdly the most I will give you is the burn rate for stormlight and the burn rate of atium MAY be about the same, which means Vin just burns atium, preventing death. When her atium and his stormlight is gone, Szeth is now human like anyone else, while Vin still has ALL her metals.

 

Finally as I again have continually mentioned, Szeth is using an Honorblade. Is an honorblade insanely powerful? Probably yes, but at this stage in the book, with Szeth as was given the blade functions as such: inefficient use of stormlight, provides two windrunner surges, remains only in blade form and takes 10 heartbeats to summon.

 

If when more books are released, and we know more of what an honorblade can do, you want to retcon and base the bout on that? Then matters would be totally different. if you wanted to take Szeth at the end of Stormlight with Nightblade, then again totally different. But as posited, this fight is not the open and shut case that you present.

Perpendicular velocities are separate. If you fire a bullet horizontally from a gun, it will hit the ground at the same time as a marble you drop (assuming no air resistance). It doesn't matter how hard Vin Pushes. The force required to move it a certain distance is (2*d*m)/t², where d is the distance, m is the mass of the coin, and t is the time Szeth has to do it. Let's assume Szeth has to move it about half a meter. Therefore, the force required is m/t². t is d/v, so that's mv²/d_s². d_s is the distance between Vin and Szeth. You assumed earlier that it would be about the mass of a bullet, so that's about 0.0042 kg. Let's also assume it's moving at the same speed, so about 500 m/s. So the force is 250000*0.0042/d_s². That comes out to about 1000/d_s² N. Compare that to the force required to move hundreds of arrows, each weighing more than a bullet, across a massive distance to Kaladin's shield. Yes, Kaladin probably was more efficient, but the mass of an arrow according to your source is 35 grams, or 0.035 kg - nearly ten times the mass of a bullet. Multiply it by the several hundred arrows he had to move, and how fast he did that, and how far away some of those arrows were, he exerted an insane amount of force with his Lashing. Szeth wouldn't use up all his Stormlight stopping one of Vin's coins, or even an entire pouch's worth.

 

Yes, Stormlight runs out continuously, but that just gives Szeth an incentive to finish it quickly. And unless Vin uses atium continuously as well, he'll do that with ease. Besides, even with Vin using atium, Szeth can win. A Full Lashing on the ground as he gets close, take out her legs with his Blade (and she can't dodge at this point, no matter how agile she is. Her legs are immobile), and she's stuck to the ground. Boom. Dead. Yeah, Szeth might be running low on Stormlight, but a Full Lashing doesn't use much Stormlight, and Vin's still dead. Even if a Full Lashing is too much of a risk, atium isn't an infinite advantage. Vin has managed to beat it, and Stormlight gives enhanced combat skill on top of the extra speed. For all we know, Szeth would be able to hit her despite atium. And once he's hit her, she's dead. Even if he only hits one arm, she now has the dead weight of an arm to lug around, and can't use that dagger, at which point he can hit her again and kill her.

[Pathfinder]

But there IS air resistance acting on the arrows. So despite a continual push during the entire flight, Vin's weight does not enter into that calculation whatsoever?

 

Also the arrows were not moving at the same speed as a bullet. How do you account for the speed in the distance covered? You are assuming the same rate of effect upon the projectile. The amount of time Szeth would have to affect an arrow would be MUCH more than the time he would have to affect a bullet. How do you account for that?

 

Again, you are grossly underestimating the amount of stormlight to power everyone of those abilities. Vin is pewter enhanced, so the usual power level of lashing would not have the same affect. He would have to use even more than he has used on normal people in the book, as well as again he is continually breathing in more and more stormlight, which he WOULDN'T have. 

 

This is not an open and shut fight. 

 

I am reading further, but I am referring to the angle of reach, which is 

where V is the initial velocity

 

As I come up with scientific formula, this is how I am envisioning the issue:

 

Take a pistol and a sniper rifle. Fire them parallel to the ground, and over a long enough distance the pistol bullet will be pulled to the ground earlier than the rifle bullet. Now increasing the gravitation pull would make that occur sooner, but if we increase the velocity to compensate for the increased gravitational pull, the projectile will still make the distance. What I am stating is in the assumed distance between these two combatants, and the velocity of a dularium pushed coin, Szeth would need a HUGE amount of stormlight to affect it enough to curve its course enough to not strike him. 

 

Also here is a question, if we are assuming that a coin shot travels the velocity of a bullet, how is Szeth, even with stormlight, able to have enough time and speed to pick up a stone, and lash it before he is shot? Kal knew the parshendi were drawing their arrows and already had a shield in his hand. How is Szeth going to be in position and prepared to counter this?

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Shaggai]

1. But there IS air resistance acting on the arrows. So despite a continual push during the entire flight, Vin's weight does not enter into that calculation whatsoever?

 

2. Again, you are grossly underestimating the amount of stormlight to power everyone of those abilities. Vin is pewter enhanced, so the usual power level of lashing would not have the same affect. He would have to use even more than he has used on normal people in the book, as well as again he is continually breathing in more and more stormlight, which he WOULDN'T have. 

 

This is not an open and shut fight. 

1. Air resistance operates opposite to the direction of motion, so that just proves that Stormlight can do more than I had previously thought. Vin's weight has nothing to do with it, because the directions of motion are separate.

 

2. He's not using a Reverse Lashing on Vin, just on the coins. Also, separate directions of motion. Vin's pewter or duralumin or whatever doesn't matter. If you mean for the Full Lashing, assuming he starts with a reasonable amount of Stormlight, he'll have quite a bit more Stormlight than the Stormlight expended in getting close to Vin while either redirecting her coins or just healing from them. He'll still have enough to Full Lash her, and he has an unblockable sword against a pair of daggers. Also, like I said, he might not even need a Full Lashing. A sword versus a pair of daggers is already an unbalanced fight, and a sword which cannot be blocked and which one-hit-kills anything is even more unbalanced. Sword + enhanced combat abilities* + not having to care about getting hit vs. pair of daggers + seeing the future + having to care about getting hit. Atium is very powerful, yes, but when you include Full Lashings and/or Stormlight's combat enhancement* it's not as big a deal, especially when Szeth doesn't have to be careful about getting hit but Vin does.

 

*Separate from the strength and speed. Pewter cancels those out.

[Pathfinder]

1. Air resistance operates opposite to the direction of motion, so that just proves that Stormlight can do more than I had previously thought. Vin's weight has nothing to do with it, because the directions of motion are separate.

 

2. He's not using a Reverse Lashing on Vin, just on the coins. Also, separate directions of motion. Vin's pewter or duralumin or whatever doesn't matter. If you mean for the Full Lashing, assuming he starts with a reasonable amount of Stormlight, he'll have quite a bit more Stormlight than the Stormlight expended in getting close to Vin while either redirecting her coins or just healing from them. He'll still have enough to Full Lash her, and he has an unblockable sword against a pair of daggers. Also, like I said, he might not even need a Full Lashing. A sword versus a pair of daggers is already an unbalanced fight, and a sword which cannot be blocked and which one-hit-kills anything is even more unbalanced. Sword + enhanced combat abilities* + not having to care about getting hit vs. pair of daggers + seeing the future + having to care about getting hit. Atium is very powerful, yes, but when you include Full Lashings and/or Stormlight's combat enhancement* it's not as big a deal, especially when Szeth doesn't have to be careful about getting hit but Vin does.

 

*Separate from the strength and speed. Pewter cancels those out.

I added additional edits for your consideration. And actually it would be Sword that can be yanked out of hand+enhanced combat abilities+accelerated healing vs the ability to disarm the opponent+dagggers+enhanced comabt abilities+seeing the future+ accelerated healing

 

I think by this point we should just agree to disagree because we are clearly not making any headway

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Shaggai]

I added additional edits for your consideration. And actually it would be Sword that can be yanked out of hand+enhanced combat abilities+accelerated healing vs the ability to disarm the opponent+dagggers+enhanced comabt abilities+seeing the future+ accelerated healing

 

I think by this point we should just agree to disagree because we are clearly not making any headway

I'm not so sure it could be yanked out of his hand. Yes, she'll be using duralumin, but it takes duralumin to push it at all, so presumably a duralumin push would be much less powerful than it would on an ordinary sword. Add in Szeth's enhanced strength, and he might not even have to let go.

 

As for your edits: No, that's completely false. Gravity acts on all objects impartially, regardless of velocity. Fire a sniper bullet horizontally, and drop a marble, and they'll hit the ground at the same time. The bullet will go farther, but not longer. Speed doesn't affect gravity. Szeth doesn't have to move it much for it to miss, and he can dodge as well.

 

Well, Vin would have to get some coins into her hand first, and maybe down a vial. I'm assuming they're dropped into a large area with knowledge of each other's powers, but without their stuff ready. Szeth can breathe in while bending down to get a rock, and he can do that pretty quickly. Or he can just breathe in, run at her, take the hits and get in close. If they don't have knowledge of each other's powers, then he won't have time to pick up a rock, but Vin will also be at a serious disadvantage, since she can't Push his weapon without duralumin and she won't know that.

[Pathfinder]

I'm not so sure it could be yanked out of his hand. Yes, she'll be using duralumin, but it takes duralumin to push it at all, so presumably a duralumin push would be much less powerful than it would on an ordinary sword. Add in Szeth's enhanced strength, and he might not even have to let go.

 

As for your edits: No, that's completely false. Gravity acts on all objects impartially, regardless of velocity. Fire a sniper bullet horizontally, and drop a marble, and they'll hit the ground at the same time. The bullet will go farther, but not longer. Speed doesn't affect gravity. Szeth doesn't have to move it much for it to miss, and he can dodge as well.

 

Well, Vin would have to get some coins into her hand first, and maybe down a vial. I'm assuming they're dropped into a large area with knowledge of each other's powers, but without their stuff ready. Szeth can breathe in while bending down to get a rock, and he can do that pretty quickly. Or he can just breathe in, run at her, take the hits and get in close. If they don't have knowledge of each other's powers, then he won't have time to pick up a rock, but Vin will also be at a serious disadvantage, since she can't Push his weapon without duralumin and she won't know that.

I am going on the premise that in order to have the same affect on a normal blade , you need to increase the action. So a dularium push would have the affect of a normal push on the honorblade. Just like any gravitational powers used ON Vin would need to be significantly amplified in order to affect her the amount it would any normal person. In order to attain this effect, dularium has to burn the entire steel reserve, so Szeth would need to consume the equivalent level of stormlight to accomplish the same goal

 

So again, you are now stating that Szeth has the increased level of strength, and reaction in order to anticipate AND prevent an INVISIBLE force from yanking his blade from his hand?

 

So firing a rifle and dropping a marble would result in them both having traveled the same distance? The example you give assumes no outside force acting upon the objects save for gravity. If the principle you cite is applied the way you imply, then firing a pistol vs firing a rifle would be no different. They both would travel the EXACT SAME DISTANCE. That is why I cited the angle of reach earlier. You are attempting through the amplification of gravity to change the angle in the distance between Szeth and Vin. I am going on the premise that they are roughly 30 feet apart, but this would still change nothing even if they were even FURTHER apart because of below:

 

Vin is 120 pounds in this example. She pushes the coin against her own weight. Force (N) is mass (kg) times acceleration m/s^-2). 120 pounds of force is 533 Newtons. Mass is 0.0025, so the acceleration is 213 200m/s^-2. From there, if the force is continually applied to the penny for 30 straight feet, it will reach Szeth in less than 0.01s, acheiving a speed of 2130m/s. Last time I checked, even stormlight enhanced, Szeth nor Kal has moved as fast as superman, the flash, or quicksilver, so how is he dodging it? BTW this is not accounting for dularium.

 

If they have knowledge of each other's powers, he still does not have enough time from picking up his rock to even increase the gravity before the coins have hit him. It would take the same time for Vin to grab a vial and down it with one hand, as she grabs her coins and casts them out in front of her with the other hand, as Szeth takes to bend over, inhale and pick up a rock. I could even give you that he already has his blade out, Vin can do a dularium push on ALL the coins AND his blade at the same time in ONE push. Then she can do that again with a dularium PULL. 

 

If they do NOT have knowledge of each other, Vin in EVERY SINGLE COMBAT she has had, she opens up with shooting coins. How would Szeth know to counter an ability that he knows nothing about in 0.01 seconds it takes to reach him? If he comes at her, any attack, any attempt to touch her, even his "glowing spray" would be seen in a shadow allowing her to avoid.

 

You keep saying "oh Szeth can do this" "Oh Szeth can do that" but you do not take into account the resource use required in order to accomplish these feats. I keep comparing things to DND, but this is like a wizard vs a psion. The Wizard has more spells to chose from, but once the spell is used that is it. The Psion has less spells to use, but can use a weak one a ton of times, or a powerful one once or twice. So lets assign values. Let us assign a numeric value of 10 to each metal Vin is burning. She has steel, iron, tin, pewter, duralumin, zinc, brass, copper, bronze, and atium. So even though copper and bronze would not be useful for this combat, I will still count it as a reservoir so Szeth would have a stormlight value of 100, while Vin would have ten numeric values of 10. So now lets see if I can chart this out below:

 

 annnnnnd I am swamped at work, so this portion will have to wait till tonight. I do not understand why you will just not concede that this bout is not open and shut, and that each combatant has abilities that at the VERY least would make it a close fight. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Pathfinder