Cosmere Battle Royale; AKA Who Would Win

[Pathfinder]

The third law says that for every action (force) there is an equal and opposite reaction (force). Forces are found in pairs. Think about the time you sit in a chair. Your body exerts a force downward and that chair needs to exert an equal force upward or the chair will collapse. It's an issue of symmetry. Acting forces encounter other forces in the opposite direction. There's also the example of shooting a cannonball. When the cannonball is fired through the air (by the explosion), the cannon is pushed backward. The force pushing the ball out was equal to the force pushing the cannon back, but the effect on the cannon is less noticeable because it has a much larger mass. That example is similar to the kick when a gun fires a bullet forward. 

[Moogle]

The third law is that for every force, there is an equal and opposite force. If 120 lbs. of force are on the coin, there are 120 lbs. of force on Vin (assuming the third law holds). There is no condition about the objects remaining "stationary". It is true that objects can remain stationary, however, if for example friction is stopping them from moving.

 

You're right that Vin will not be pushed back as fast as the coin, because she has a higher mass, but she will experience the same force.

[Pathfinder]

The third law is that for every force, there is an equal and opposite force. If 120 lbs. of force are on the coin, there are 120 lbs. of force on Vin (assuming the third law holds). There is no condition about the objects remaining "stationary". It is true that objects can remain stationary, however, if for example friction is stopping them from moving.

 

You're right that Vin will not be pushed back as fast as the coin, because she has a higher mass, but she will experience the same force.

but the difference between the 120 pounds that vin is, and the ounces the coin is, is translated into the momentum shooting the coin forward. So she wouldn't be thrown back. If there were twin Vin's with the same twin powers, both pushing on the same coin, they would be thrown back, but that is NOT the case. 

 

Maybe I am misreading something, or misunderstanding. As you state what is going on with the coin, explain to me what is happening if I physically push a boulder in front of me, assuming the boulder is lets say 50 pounds, and I am 150 pounds. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Vizier he/him]

You know, it just occurred to me how glorious it would be if Vin (or any Mistborn, but especially Vin) were to be dropped in the middle of Newcago.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Vizier

[Pathfinder]

...you know, it just occurred to me how glorious it would be if Vin (or any Mistborn, but especially Vin) were to be dropped them in the middle of Newcago.

Cue Aladdin's "A Whole New World" to play in the background lol 

[Moogle]

Maybe I am misreading something, or misunderstanding. As you state what is going on with the coin, explain to me what is happening if I physically push a boulder in front of me, assuming the boulder is lets say 50 pounds, and I am 150 pounds. 

 

You push on the boulder, exerting X newtons of force. This in turn causes X newtons of force backwards onto you. If the boulder is very slippery, so there is no friction to stop it from moving, the boulder will begin to move away. If you have shoes on that grip the ground nicely, friction will stop you from moving, as you will exert X newtons of force on the ground, which will in turn cause X newtons of force on you, which cancels out and prevents you from moving while the boulder moves. (Effectively in the end, X newtons are applied to the boulder, and X newtons are applied to the earth in the opposite direction.) If you don't have shoes that grip the ground nicely (say, you're on slippery ice), you will also begin to move away. Also, if you push really really hard, you might move away anyways as X is too strong for friction to cancel out.

 

Assuming you're both on frictionless ground: The boulder will accelerate at at X / (50 pounds in kilograms) m/s^2, while you will accelerate at X / (150 pounds in kilograms) m/s^2, ie. your acceleration will be a third of that of the boulders.

 

(This is all assuming there is a constant force of X newtons applied, which is not quite the case but it serves to illustrate the principles.)

 

but the difference between the 120 pounds that vin is, and the ounces the coin is, is translated into the momentum shooting the coin forward. So she wouldn't be thrown back. If there were twin Vin's with the same twin powers, both pushing on the same coin, they would be thrown back, but that is NOT the case.

 

From my understanding, you are saying the force applied to the coin is equal to the force which causes Vin to shoot up when the coin is underneath her. This means there's a good 120 lbs. of force (well, more) applied to the coin to shoot it at someone, and there's a good 120 lbs. of force in the opposite direction pushing Vin in the opposite direction (assuming Newton's third law holds). Vin might not shoot back if friction is sufficient, but 120 lbs. of force is a lot and Vin doesn't remark on that kind of kick every time she Pushes a coin.

 

There is also the fact that Allomancers don't suffer "kickback" until the object they are Pushing on hits an object and can no longer be forced back. They suddenly experience a massively increased force on them, which should not happen if Pushing is just applying a force to the object, and the same force in turn is applied to you..

 

I have researched that elastic collision model, and the thread OP remarks very specifically on this kickback effect, which should not happen if Pushing just applies the same force to both you and the object. I will read this thread in more detail, here is the link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7663-proposed-physics-model-for-steelpushing-elastic-collisions/

 

Edit: I have read the above link, the OP's model seems very reasonable and fits the observed behavior of things nicely. What does it mean for this discussion? It means that coins are not accelerated as if they have 120 lbs. of force applied to them, and are in fact slower. Christmas is saved! Coins no longer cause the atmosphere to undergo fusion!

 

Edit2: To explain why the new model makes things less ridiculous with more math, if Vin can shove herself up in the air, she's essentially adding kinetic energy equal to 1/2 * her mass * (new velocity squared - old velocity squared). Assuming this energy added each second, ie. power, is constant (though is reduced with distance to the object being Pushed or Pulled), if she Pushes something which is half her weight, its velocity only increases sqrt(2) times. If she pushes a coin - which we'll say is 1/1000 of her weight - it is only going to gain an increase in velocity equal to sqrt(1000) = 31 times faster than the velocity increase she herself gets when she Pushes herself into the air off of a coin on the ground, which is not as fast as the "Vin applies a force of X newtons on both herself and the coin" model, which would have the coin acceleration 1000x faster than she did when lifting off the ground which results in very unfortunate vaporization of the coin.

 

Now, this is still pretty fast, so Szeth might have to expend a lot of Stormlight deflecting it, but it's not quite as bad as I feared. It's very difficult to calculate all this because we can't measure how fast Vin jumps up.

 

Edit3: Of course, I'm not necessarily sure if it's kinetic energy, but at the very least the basic idea of elastic collisions, where you have masses m1 and m2 and there's a Push which causes m1 to get m2/(m1+m2) of the velocity and m2 to get m1/(m1+m2) of the velocity works out. It might still be force? This is really something Brandon should be asked. I like the idea of the Allomancer adding kinetic energy every second though, because that seems more in line with how Investiture should work... but it has major issues if, say, both the coin and Vin are stuck against a wall, and it doesn't quite explain levitation.

 

Edit4: A sneaky way to ask Brandon would be whether a Steel Misting could power a city or a house by Pushing a metal magnet around a circular track. If it's a constant force, then energy added to the system is force x distance which quickly gets ridiculous, but if it's a constant energy, then the energy added to the system at maximum is not very ridiculous and the Misting might be able to power a few dozen lightbulbs.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

You push on the boulder, exerting X newtons of force. This in turn causes X newtons of force backwards onto you. If the boulder is very slippery, so there is no friction to stop it from moving, the boulder will begin to move away. If you have shoes on that grip the ground nicely, friction will stop you from moving, as you will exert X newtons of force on the ground, which will in turn cause X newtons of force on you, which cancels out and prevents you from moving while the boulder moves. (Effectively in the end, X newtons are applied to the boulder, and X newtons are applied to the earth in the opposite direction.) If you don't have shoes that grip the ground nicely (say, you're on slippery ice), you will also begin to move away. Also, if you push really really hard, you might move away anyways as X is too strong for friction to cancel out.

 

Assuming you're both on frictionless ground: The boulder will accelerate at at X / (50 pounds in kilograms) m/s^2, while you will accelerate at X / (150 pounds in kilograms) m/s^2, ie. your acceleration will be a third of that of the boulders.

 

(This is all assuming there is a constant force of X newtons applied, which is not quite the case but it serves to illustrate the principles.)

 

 

From my understanding, you are saying the force applied to the coin is equal to the force which causes Vin to shoot up when the coin is underneath her. This means there's a good 120 lbs. of force (well, more) applied to the coin to shoot it at someone, and there's a good 120 lbs. of force in the opposite direction pushing Vin in the opposite direction (assuming Newton's third law holds). Vin might not shoot back if friction is sufficient, but 120 lbs. of force is a lot and Vin doesn't remark on that kind of kick every time she Pushes a coin.

 

There is also the fact that Allomancers don't suffer "kickback" until the object they are Pushing on hits an object and can no longer be forced back. They suddenly experience a massively increased force on them, which should not happen if Pushing is just applying a force to the object, and the same force in turn is applied to you..

 

I have researched that elastic collision model, and the thread OP remarks very specifically on this kickback effect, which should not happen if Pushing just applies the same force to both you and the object. I will read this thread in more detail, here is the link: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7663-proposed-physics-model-for-steelpushing-elastic-collisions/

 

Edit: I have read the above link, the OP's model seems very reasonable and fits the observed behavior of things nicely. What does it mean for this discussion? It means that coins are not accelerated as if they have 120 lbs. of force applied to them, and are in fact slower. Christmas is saved! Coins no longer cause the atmosphere to undergo fusion!

 

Edit2: To explain why the new model makes things less ridiculous with more math, if Vin can shove herself up in the air, she's essentially adding kinetic energy equal to 1/2 * her mass * (new velocity squared - old velocity squared). Assuming this energy added each second, ie. power, is constant (though is reduced with distance to the object being Pushed or Pulled), if she Pushes something which is half her weight, its velocity only increases sqrt(2) times. If she pushes a coin - which we'll say is 1/1000 of her weight - it is only going to gain an increase in velocity equal to sqrt(1000) = 31 times faster than the velocity increase she herself gets when she Pushes herself into the air off of a coin on the ground, which is not as fast as the "Vin applies a force of X newtons on both herself and the coin" model, which would have the coin acceleration 1000x faster than she did when lifting off the ground which results in very unfortunate vaporization of the coin.

 

Now, this is still pretty fast, so Szeth might have to expend a lot of Stormlight deflecting it, but it's not quite as bad as I feared. It's very difficult to calculate all this because we can't measure how fast Vin jumps up.

 

Edit3: Of course, I'm not necessarily sure if it's kinetic energy, but at the very least the basic idea of elastic collisions, where you have masses m1 and m2 and there's a Push which causes m1 to get m2/(m1+m2) of the velocity and m2 to get m1/(m1+m2) of the velocity works out. It might still be force? This is really something Brandon should be asked. I like the idea of the Allomancer adding kinetic energy every second though, because that seems more in line with how Investiture should work... but it has major issues if, say, both the coin and Vin are stuck against a wall, and it doesn't quite explain levitation.

 

Edit4: A sneaky way to ask Brandon would be whether a Steel Misting could power a city or a house by Pushing a metal magnet around a circular track. If it's a constant force, then energy added to the system is force x distance which quickly gets ridiculous, but if it's a constant energy, then the energy added to the system at maximum is not very ridiculous and the Misting might be able to power a few dozen lightbulbs.

I will admit a lot of what you wrote, and what was written in the post you referenced (which ironically enough if you scroll down, I posted there hoping someone could help me on this topic and I never got a response lol), is over my head but I will keep re-reading and doing additional research so I can understand it better, so I appreciate the link and the explanation that helps me learn new things and further appreciate Brandon's books 

 

I do still intend to sometime this week, or hopefully this weekend begin listing all the instances Szeth uses stormlight based on illumination, and actions accomplished between inhalations to satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps assist in knowledge on this forum. Also if I have time, I would like to try the same with Kaladin, to see if there is a clear visible difference in the amount of activities accomplished between inhalations when compared with Szeth, or is it something we have to take at face value as stated by Syl. Do you, or anyone else have any suggestions or contributions regarding my methodology to aid in attaining that goal? Do you think I should make a new thread with that goal in mind?

[Moogle]

I will admit a lot of what you wrote, and what was written in the post you referenced (which ironically enough if you scroll down, I posted there hoping someone could help me on this topic and I never got a response lol), is over my head but I will keep re-reading and doing additional research so I can understand it better, so I appreciate the link and the explanation that helps me learn new things and further appreciate Brandon's books 

 

I'm sorry I can't explain it better. The core idea which I think makes the most sense is that the force is not equal and opposite between you and the thing you're Pushing, but instead there's a total amount of energy/force that is generated by the Allomancy, and if your mass is significantly larger than the thing you're Pushing, most of that force/energy will be directed at the thing you're Pushing. This is why Vin, when she throws down a coin, only gets pushed up and starts to "fly" when the coin hits the ground and she's effectively pushing on something with nigh-infinite mass. (The thread I linked claims it is kinetic energy added to the system which is added inversely proportion to your masses, but that doesn't quite explain why there's still a force applied when both the Pusher and Pushee are anchored in one place.)

 

I do still intend to sometime this week, or hopefully this weekend begin listing all the instances Szeth uses stormlight based on illumination, and actions accomplished between inhalations to satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps assist in knowledge on this forum. Also if I have time, I would like to try the same with Kaladin, to see if there is a clear visible difference in the amount of activities accomplished between inhalations when compared with Szeth, or is it something we have to take at face value as stated by Syl. Do you, or anyone else have any suggestions or contributions regarding my methodology to aid in attaining that goal? Do you think I should make a new thread with that goal in mind?

 

A new thread seems perfect for that.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Moogle

[_Lestibournes]

On 9/16/2013 at 9:09 AM, Pechvarry said:

I've been trying to think of a good spy vs spy opponent for Shai.

Denth could be good, he's very sneaky

[Fezzik]

Not only did this thread end more than 4 years ago, you quoted a post more than 5 years old. New Record!