How does the Nahel Bond work exactly? (WoR Spoilers)

[Amaror]

First of all sorry if this topic has allready been discussed. I am fairly new to this forum and the Stormlight Archives.

 

Ok, so we know that Spren bond people that are broken and at the same time exemplify the values of the Spren. I will mostly talk about the Proto-Radiants Kalading and Shallan here, since we know most about them. We can guess that it was Gavilars death that broke Dalinar and Elhokar, but we don't know it for certain. It could always be that thing with his wife for Dalinar. 

 

Anyway the thing with the breaking and the values makes a lot of sense on the surface. Kalading got broken both through Tiens death and his betrayal through Amaram. Additionally he was always dreaming of saving people through fighting. Of protecting people, which is a major part of what makes out the Windrunners. 

Shallan was broken by the event of killing her Mother. The same event caused Shallan to lie to herself. She burried the memories of that event deep within her and lived a lie, refusing to acknowledge what happened. It makes sense that this would attract a Cryptic since they are attracted to lie and illusions. 

 

But when we look deeper it doesn't seem that easy. Kaladin was allready showing some Windrunner abilities in his fight with that one boy from his home village, before he got broken. But it's possible that the bonding happens before and that the Spren are just attracted to values that they like and that the breaking merely allows the bond to strengthen. After all, Kalading expressed his desire to save through fighting way before that. 

 

But if we look at Shallan the whole thing makes even less sense. Shallan doesn't only have some small bond before the breaking, she allready spoke the first ideal. She is even capable of using pattern as a shardblade, which required Kaladin to speak three whole ideals. Not only that but before her mothers death she doesn't even represent the values of the Cryptics very much. The memories of the time before that event are all happy and peacefull. No lies, no deception. Nothing that would really attract a Cryptic. And yet she not only attracted pattern but bonded him so far. The whole event that broke her and caused her to live a lie wouldn't have even happened if she hadn't been bonded before. 

 

So ... what do you guys think. Am i missing something? Or do we just not know enough about the Nahel Bond to say exactly how and why it happens?

[natc]

Which would mean Shallan was already living a lie before that fiasco. And Kaladin's life was possibly bad enough to him that he was already a tad cracked.

Seems straightforward enough. There's no way to force investiture into a spiritweb without a gaping hole in it. Especially not a splinter's worth of investiture. Since when did Shallan become a reliable narrator anyway?

Edited August 22, 2015 by natc

[DreamEternal]

Where did Kaladin show any windrunner abilities in his hometown? If you are talking about that first fight with the other boys, it could have been just some latent combat talent plus a lucky hit, since it is clear that not all of Kaladin's talent comes from Syl. Even if you take his inability to perform simple forms after he killed her, you must remenber he was hurt, depressed and simply not focused, and he was able to kill a chasmfiend back when he was healthier and had more imediate concerns.

Shallan, on the other side... I believe we were meant to believe that her childhood was much, much darker than what we saw and Shallan buried it all away, after all most mothers wouldn't kill their children for having strange powers, and most educated people know the Radiants were good once.

EDIT: storming typos

Edited August 22, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Amaror]

Shallan, on the other side... I believe we were meant to believe that her childhood was much, much darker than what we saw and shallan buried it all away, after all mist mothers wouldn't kill their children for having strange powers, and most educated people know the Radiants were good once.

 

I think her Mother's "Friend" was most likely part of one of the few billion secret organisations that seem to exist on Roshar. And i think that particular organisation thinks the Voidbringers can only come back if the Radiants come back before that. So in order to keep the Voidbringers from coming back they tried to kill people that showed signs of a nahel bond, aka Shallan.

[Unodus he/him]

I'm fairly sure there is more to Shallans story (after all, she hasn't figured out how to soulcast and soundweave- meaning she has more truths to speak.)- after all, we still don't know why her mother tried to kill her. Sure, there are people trying to prevent the return of the radiants since hypothetically they bring the apocalypse in their wake- but who could the mother have learned that from?

 

I'd say there is more to the Nahel bond that we don't know about- but we can guess, I guess. 

[Jondesu he/him]

I'm fairly sure there is more to Shallans story (after all, she hasn't figured out how to soulcast and soundweave- meaning she has more truths to speak.)- after all, we still don't know why her mother tried to kill her. Sure, there are people trying to prevent the return of the radiants since hypothetically they bring the apocalypse in their wake- but who could the mother have learned that from?

 

I'd say there is more to the Nahel bond that we don't know about- but we can guess, I guess. 

Better yet, Pattern implies she was able to soundweave before, meaning before she lied to herself about having a spren/Shardblade and lost most of her memories and abilities in the process, until she began to rediscover them and bond with Pattern again.  I see that as being a lot like what happened with Kaladin and Syl, and that she almost killed Pattern, then he found his way back to her.  That also leads to more questions, of course, but it's interesting to realize.

 

jW

[Amaror]

I'm fairly sure there is more to Shallans story (after all, she hasn't figured out how to soulcast and soundweave- meaning she has more truths to speak.)- after all, we still don't know why her mother tried to kill her. Sure, there are people trying to prevent the return of the radiants since hypothetically they bring the apocalypse in their wake- but who could the mother have learned that from?

 

I'd say there is more to the Nahel bond that we don't know about- but we can guess, I guess. 

 

Well she has a "Friend" with her when she tries to kill Shallan, so that's most likely the person that initiated her in the cult. I think at one time Shallan mentions something that her mother was talking more and more with her friend and acting less and less like herself or something. 

It also may be the reason her father contacted the Ghostbloods afterwards.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

First of all sorry if this topic has allready been discussed. I am fairly new to this forum and the Stormlight Archives.

 

Ok, so we know that Spren bond people that are broken and at the same time exemplify the values of the Spren. I will mostly talk about the Proto-Radiants Kalading and Shallan here, since we know most about them. We can guess that it was Gavilars death that broke Dalinar and Elhokar, but we don't know it for certain. It could always be that thing with his wife for Dalinar. 

 

Anyway the thing with the breaking and the values makes a lot of sense on the surface. Kalading got broken both through Tiens death and his betrayal through Amaram. Additionally he was always dreaming of saving people through fighting. Of protecting people, which is a major part of what makes out the Windrunners. 

Shallan was broken by the event of killing her Mother. The same event caused Shallan to lie to herself. She burried the memories of that event deep within her and lived a lie, refusing to acknowledge what happened. It makes sense that this would attract a Cryptic since they are attracted to lie and illusions. 

 

But when we look deeper it doesn't seem that easy. Kaladin was allready showing some Windrunner abilities in his fight with that one boy from his home village, before he got broken. But it's possible that the bonding happens before and that the Spren are just attracted to values that they like and that the breaking merely allows the bond to strengthen. After all, Kalading expressed his desire to save through fighting way before that. 

 

But if we look at Shallan the whole thing makes even less sense. Shallan doesn't only have some small bond before the breaking, she allready spoke the first ideal. She is even capable of using pattern as a shardblade, which required Kaladin to speak three whole ideals. Not only that but before her mothers death she doesn't even represent the values of the Cryptics very much. The memories of the time before that event are all happy and peacefull. No lies, no deception. Nothing that would really attract a Cryptic. And yet she not only attracted pattern but bonded him so far. The whole event that broke her and caused her to live a lie wouldn't have even happened if she hadn't been bonded before. 

 

So ... what do you guys think. Am i missing something? Or do we just not know enough about the Nahel Bond to say exactly how and why it happens?

 

Shallan's bond was forming quite a bit before her Mother tried to kill her, enough to apparently have spoken the requisite words for Level 3 (as Pattern implied she was a lot further along the Radiant path than Kaladin at the end of WoR; having just spoken her 3rd truth, combined with the first oath > first truth > second truth, making her a level 4 Radiant). So going from this, it is hard to say what Shallan's early childhood was like, as she most likely repressed those memories due to associating them with her Mother, but most likely something terrible caused her to crack badly enough for a bond to start forming.

[mirahound she/her]

Shallan's bond was forming quite a bit before her Mother tried to kill her, enough to apparently have spoken the requisite words for Level 3 (as Pattern implied she was a lot further along the Radiant path than Kaladin at the end of WoR; having just spoken her 3rd truth, combined with the first oath > first truth > second truth, making her a level 4 Radiant). So going from this, it is hard to say what Shallan's early childhood was like, as she most likely repressed those memories due to associating them with her Mother, but most likely something terrible caused her to crack badly enough for a bond to start forming.

I definitely think there was more going on in Shallan's family before her mother tried to kill her. I just think there's no way she would have had a Shardblade otherwise, and honestly, something just felt off to me about her interaction with her father right after she kills her mother.

[ivoryblade]

Forgive me for asking, but where in the books does it say that one needs to be broken before a spren bonds to him/her?

[DreamEternal]

It is not directly stated in the book itself, but strongly implied by Syl saying that all Knights Radiant were broken, and it is outright stated in the WoR back cover that only broken souls can have surgebindings inserted into them, and Brandon confirmed that to use external investiture(like surgebinding or allomancy) there need to be cracks in your soul.

[Oudeis he/him]

Where did Kaladin show any windrunner abilities in his hometown? If you are talking about that first fight with the other boys, it could have been just some latent combat talent plus a lucky hit, since it is clear that not all of Kaladin's talent comes from Syl.

 

Disagree. From what we can see of Kaladin's perspective, it was like being taken over by an otherworldly force. That's not a "lucky hit." And it is the opposite of clear that "not all of Kaladin's talent comes from Syl." The times he displays incredible skill, the wind can be seen visibly warping around his body, and he feels like something else is using him. Kaladin's fight with the Chasmfiend is not astounding prowess and impossible skill. That was luck and some assistance from Shallan's Lightweaving and Shardblade; part of it was him being in excellent shape, and part was the training he did have. And use of the terrain to his advantage. So, after many years of intense training, he was able to accomplish something pretty good with a lot of assistance. As a young boy, the first time he ever touched a weapon, what he did could not be confused for natural skill.

 

I'm fairly sure there is more to Shallans story (after all, she hasn't figured out how to soulcast and soundweave- meaning she has more truths to speak.) 

 

Do we know this is how this works? Kaladin didn't know how to do a Basic Lashing, but then just figured it out one day, without saying an Ideal recently. Surgebinding doesn't come with a video game tutorial, and it's not as simple as just trying different combinations of buttons until one of them works. Without a teacher, it might be insanely difficult to figure out what the trick is. And remember, she did Soulcast, twice now, once an entire boat. She clearly has the capacity, just not the skill.

[Unodus he/him]

 

 

Do we know this is how this works? Kaladin didn't know how to do a Basic Lashing, but then just figured it out one day, without saying an Ideal recently. Surgebinding doesn't come with a video game tutorial, and it's not as simple as just trying different combinations of buttons until one of them works. Without a teacher, it might be insanely difficult to figure out what the trick is. And remember, she did Soulcast, twice now, once an entire boat. She clearly has the capacity, just not the skill.

 

For soundweaving, Pattern says they had done it once before- but she had forgotten how to (due to memory suppression). Since she still has memorys suppressed, it is only logical to conclude that she has more powers to uncover by undoing that suppression.

Also consider that Shallan was also able to summon Pattern as a blade in a pinch, but didn't recognize that the shardblade was him until later in the book when she realized the truth- I believe this mechanic also applies to her ability to soulcast, so she won't be able to realize how to use the surge until she uncovers the truth. This lead me to believe Shallan has more truths to speak before she masters her surges.

[Oudeis he/him]

I find nothing logical about your assumptions. She did successfully Soulcast, twice, and has no related supressed memories. Also, once upon a time, she had no abilities, but stating the Ideals and her original Truths granted her the powers. She wasn't born able to Lightweave but instinctively supressed it and had to uncover it. Also, if she's a Fourth Ideal Radiant, she has only one Ideal left to say. Also, the Truth she spoke at the end of Words of Radiance came immediately after she was able to up her Lightweaving game by making solid constructs. And again, we know of no other Radiant whose power works this way; say an Ideal, get a specific power.

 

Basically, I see no reason to assume that the Knights Radiant operate under World of Warcraft principles. Though it would explain why Shallan couldn't make Stick into Fire; clearly, the ability was still on cooldown.

 

Pattern himself specifically says, if you won't remember how you once did it, you'll have to learn anew. I don't agree that every Truth she says will be a recovered former memory. If that were the case, couldn't no Lightweaver ever say any ideal in the first place short of traumatically repressed memories? Which three memories had she repressed as a child in order to speak as Truths in order to get the initial powers?

[Unodus he/him]

I find nothing logical about your assumptions. She did successfully Soulcast, twice, and has no related supressed memories. Also, once upon a time, she had no abilities, but stating the Ideals and her original Truths granted her the powers. She wasn't born able to Lightweave but instinctively supressed it and had to uncover it. Also, if she's a Fourth Ideal Radiant, she has only one Ideal left to say. Also, the Truth she spoke at the end of Words of Radiance came immediately after she was able to up her Lightweaving game by making solid constructs. And again, we know of no other Radiant whose power works this way; say an Ideal, get a specific power.

 

Basically, I see no reason to assume that the Knights Radiant operate under World of Warcraft principles. Though it would explain why Shallan couldn't make Stick into Fire; clearly, the ability was still on cooldown.

 

Pattern himself specifically says, if you won't remember how you once did it, you'll have to learn anew. I don't agree that every Truth she says will be a recovered former memory. If that were the case, couldn't no Lightweaver ever say any ideal in the first place short of traumatically repressed memories? Which three memories had she repressed as a child in order to speak as Truths in order to get the initial powers?

I'm not saying that Surgebinding is some sort of game mechanic that rewards making specific actions with extra magic power (or whatever it is you meant by World of Warcraft principles, I've never played the game. Sorry x.x), rather I meant that all surgebinding is based on self-actualization/self-reflection/etc- which is why there are so many different Orders, as there are many ways to reflect on oneself (each one taking a different approach). If that is true, Shallan won't be able to continue her path of self-discovery until she confronts her conflicts (I believe that will apply to every order), it just happens that Shallans confliction comes from her suppressed past- so perhaps not every Lightweaver has suppressed memory, but since they must have all been broken at some point they will still have their own individual resolutions to conquer. 

 

Also, even if the rest of Shallans powers aren't connected to her past, there are still unexplained mysteries in her story. If those are not explained by Shallan herself, perhaps they'll be explained by another character (for example, Helaran was a key character in both Kaladin and Shallans past- it's not unreasonable to suggest the mystery of her mother (for example) will crop up again in the same manner)

[hoser he/him]

Aren't there many ways for Shallan to pick up Lightweaving tricks?  After all, even in opposition, Kaladin learned from Szeth.  Here are just a few I thought of quickly:

• learn from the Herald associated with her order
• find a book at Urithiru
• Pattern conveniently remembers
• learn from another proto-Radiant in either of the orders that Lightweaves
• learn from Hoid
• Jasnah tells her something she learned (even if Jasnah can't use it herself)

I believe that Shallan is as far advanced as she ever was, if not more, so she could do sound lightweaving if she learned the trick. 

Brandon will likely make it dramatic, but this limitation is exists at Brandon's whim, as I see it.  What did I miss?