Chasmfiends and Desolations

[nightwatcher]

At the beginning of WoK, the battlefield is drenched in red, orange, and purple. It seems rather coincidental that these are the colors of Human, Parshendi, and greatshell blood, respectively. In addition, when Jasnah finds a picture of a voidbringer, it's a Chasmfiend.

 

Alone, I wouldn't think twice. Together... perhaps there's more to the chasmfiends than we know.

 

And wait... Chasmfiends have spren, don't they? so what would happen if a parshendi used a chasmfiends spren to morph? Can the listeners use the spren of greatshells?

 

Perhaps that is what the voidbringers were. Neither parshendi nor greatshell, but both taken together.

[Shadowspren]

Hmm... interesting... the Parshendi armour (for warform) is often likened to that of a Greatshell so maybe... Plus they speak of a plethora of songs that were forgotten that are "songs of power"

 

Mistborn (HoA)

If this did occur, could it be somehow similar to the transformation that occurs with Koloss? They slowly grow bigger, and their blood changes colour... just a thought

 

Then again, maybe Odium has the ability to control Greatshells somehow... there seemed to be a lot of weird creatures before the recreance... so it might be possible. If it was linked to the spoiler topic ^^^ then it might be possible that Odium could gain control over them directly... possibly because of the Gemheart, i dunno.

 

That being said,perhaps there were just other creatures with purple blood. the thing with Sanderson is he says "in my books there are more connections than coincidences" but there are still a load of coincidences I'm sure

Edited August 13, 2015 by Shadowspren

[Seloun]

Given the way Parshendi change forms depending on the spren they're bonded to, I would imagine the greatshells behave the same way. The big, odd greatshell Kaladin and Shallan run into in the chasm has odd spren associated with it:

 

 

“Those spren,” Shallan whispered, so soft he could barely hear. “I’ve seen those . . .”

 

They danced around the chasmfiend, and were the source of the light. They looked like small glowing arrows, and they surrounded the beast in schools, though occasionally one would drift away from the others and then vanish like a small plume of smoke rising into the air.

 

“Skyeels,” Shallan whispered. “They follow skyeels too. The chasmfiend likes corpses. Could its kind be carrion feeders by nature? No, those claws, they look like they’re meant for breaking shells. I suspect we’d find herds of wild chulls near where these things live naturally. But they come to the Shattered Plains to pupate, and here there’s very little food, which is why they attack men. Why has this one remained after pupating?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 830). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
 

 

Most likely, each stage of the greatshell's lifecycle is mediated by a type of spren in a symbiotic relationship. Much as when Estonai gets 'taken over' by the Odium-spren, a Voidbringer is likely a greatshell hijacked by an Odium-spren.

 

Likewise, in the 'Life cycle of a chull' plate in WoR, it mentions that the best way to prevent a chull from pupating is to shelter it from a highstorm. It would also explain why the greatshells need to pupate on top of the chasms - they need access to the highstorm like the Parshendi for the bond, and the appropriate spren they're looking for may be only found in the chasm region.

[natc]

Even the Reshi Isles seem to have weird spren around them though. And the Santhid. With skyeels mentioned to have them I normally just assume that those are the spren sustaining the reduced gravity to accommodate their absurd size.

[WindrunnerRadiant]

I hate to break it to you, but I think its all but guaranteed that the Voidbringers are the Listeners bonded to Voidspren, Chasmfiends having nothing to do with it. Jasnah even says that she is fairly certain that the picture of the "Voidbringer" was just made of the scariest thing they could find. However, I wouldn't doubt for a second that there is some sort of connection between the Listeners and the Chasmfiends. Personally, I am of the opinion that humans on Roshar were made by Honor and Cultivation when they arrived there, and Listeners where already there (along with the Greatshells and chull and the like).

[EvilNuff]

I hate to break it to you, but I think its all but guaranteed that the Voidbringers are the Listeners bonded to Voidspren, Chasmfiends having nothing to do with it. ...

I think there are multiple types of voidbringers.  I suspect chasmfiends might be another type when bonded with other voidspren.

[natc]

I reckon they'd just be crushed by their own weight without their gravity(?)spren without some drastic change to their anatomy.

[Kelek's Breath]

I hate to break it to you, but I think its all but guaranteed that the Voidbringers are the Listeners bonded to Voidspren, Chasmfiends having nothing to do with it. 

I don't know if this is exactly true. According to their Songs, the Listeners turned to Odium after the spren started bonding with humans. If human legends are true, and voidbringers followed them from the Tranquiline Halls, then there are types of Voidbringers not seen yet.

[CabbageHead]

I don't know if this is exactly true. According to their Songs, the Listeners turned to Odium after the spren started bonding with humans. If human legends are true, and voidbringers followed them from the Tranquiline Halls, then there are types of Voidbringers not seen yet.

I suppose you could take the theoretical position that the voidbringers are the Odium spren. If that is the case, they would have followed from the Tranquiline halls, and they could have different forms based on what native Rosharan species they bond with/subjugate.

[Confused]

Voidbringers include anything Odium's investiture influences. Odium's mandate (intent) of Aggression does not allow Odium's investiture to bond well. Thus, Odium has to pour his investiture into a host through "holes." (WoB.) Stormspren IMO are corrupted windspren, just like the fish in the Dalinar Purelake vision was corrupted.

 

In the Purelake, the corrupted spren itself bonded with the rock mass that became the thunderclast - a type of Voidbringer. Similarly, with the listeners, the stormspren itself bonded. There was no direct bonding in either case between Odium's investiture and its ultimate host (unlike Syl and Kaladin, e.g.)

 

So...what are Voidbringers?

• Listeners who bond with spren carrying Odium's investiture.
• Thunderclasts - which I think are DEAD GREATSHELLS that Odium-corrupted spren resurrect.
• The "mindless" Unmade (according to the Diagram, not the "splinters") - which I think are DEAD LISTENERS whose remains have been "disturbed." (That's why listeners get so upset when Alethi bother their dead.)
• CORRUPTED HUMANS.- I have no textual evidence for this. Brandon says Odium's influence on humans is widespread. Whether this means humans just think odious thoughts or actually become bonded to spren holding Odium's investiture, I don't know. But the WoK Prelude scene never really distinguishes among combatants. For example, Kalak observes a place where "surgebinders fought." Did they fight each other or only "Voidbringers"? I think its unclear. And the Prelude image of humans in fur skins beside KR doesn't help clarify, since humans would fight on both sides if I'm right.

Just some thoughts...

 

FWIW, I put out a discussion of spren yesterday ("A Confused Primer on Spren") that I think addresses pretty important stuff (whether or not you agree with what's said). Perhaps my Internet etiquette slip is showing by mentioning this, but that post is one of a series I've been working on trying to explain things (my "Confused Theory of Everything"). The other important posts (IMHO) address "The Origin of the Cosmere," "The Shattering" and the "Mandates of the Known Shards." Those threads are all in the "Cosmere Theory" Forum. The "Spren Primer" is in this Forum, and I'm working on a long post about Desolations that tries to pull all these ideas together. That will also be posted in this Forum. Thanks!

Edited August 14, 2015 by Confused

[nightwatcher]

What if greatshells, like the parshendi themselves, change form in association with different kinds of spren? They have gemhearts, after all, which could be used to store the symbiote.

 

Then, when necessary, they simply... change. Altering forms under odium's direct supervision, becoming bigger, stronger, or smarter, in accordance with the spren in their soul. Taking on supernatural abilities, like the parshendi do in stormform. What if the creatures we see now are in the greatshell equivalent of dullform?

 

Desolations seems fairly appropriate, when you put it like that.

Edited August 15, 2015 by nightwatcher

[WindrunnerRadiant]

I don't know if this is exactly true. According to their Songs, the Listeners turned to Odium after the spren started bonding with humans. If human legends are true, and voidbringers followed them from the Tranquiline Halls, then there are types of Voidbringers not seen yet.

That is 'according to their songs.' Which could be wrong. I think it is more likely that the Listeners simply viewed it this way after many years because they saw humans bonded to spren without being corrupted while they're spren they bonded were changed by Odium.

Regardless, I concede that my point was faulty. Beyond that, I would argue that if Greatshells, Chasmfiends, etc. are Voidbringers, anything else that bonds the natural spren of Roshar in a symbiotic relationship are potentially Voidbringers. Basically just leaving humans to fend against all other life on Roshar. (We even know Ryshadium are special due to some conection with spren. There's a WoB on it somewhere, but I'm having a hard time finding it... So I appologize if that's wrong.)

Edited August 16, 2015 by WindrunnerRadiant

[mortalcoil]

Why do chasmfiends/Greatshells have to work for Odium?

 

What if they "help" fight voidbringers - kinda like they sense the wrongness of the voidbringers and are drawn to it to fight it during desolations? and unfortunately by their very destructive nature cause about as much damage as voidbringers in fighting against them.

[Seloun]

What if greatshells, like the parshendi themselves, change form in association with different kinds of spren? They have gemhearts, after all, which could be used to store the symbiote.

 

Then, when necessary, they simply... change. Altering forms under odium's direct supervision, becoming bigger, stronger, or smarter, in accordance with the spren in their soul. Taking on supernatural abilities, like the parshendi do in stormform. What if the creatures we see now are in the greatshell equivalent of dullform?

.

 

This is basically my point. If we assume greatshells and parshendi are both native to Roshar (or at least part of the originally developed life on Roshar), it seems quite reasonable to think that they have similar lifecycles. I don't think chasmfiends are the equivalent of dullform (they do appear to have spren already bonded to them) but I do think that their pupating is the equivalent of Parshendi standing out in the storm to bond with a spren:

 

 

Most gemhearts were harvested quite differently than the one had been today. Sometime during the strange life cycle of the chasmfiends, they sought the western side of the Plains, where the plateaus were wider. They climbed up onto the tops and made a rocky chrysalis, waiting for the coming of a highstorm.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 223). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

(em mine)

 

This is the reason why the chasmfiends pupate on top of the plateaus; they can't be in 'cover' much in the same way Parshendi cannot bind while inside buildings. Also, as mentioned in my previous post, the 'lifecycle of a chull' diagram suggests a similar behavior for chull as well, which I think suggests that his is a commonality of all Rosharian native life (the base creature bonds to a spren, which provides a symbiotic personality and access to some amount of Investure; the creatures throughout their lifecycle go through different but fixed variety of spren, which I speculate is also the means by which the spren reproduce). The Everstorm essentially subverts this standard mechanism by creating Odiumspren bonds instead.

[Numuhuku]

Why do chasmfiends/Greatshells have to work for Odium?

I'm kind of on this train of thought. While there's some commonality between Great Shell's ability to morph and Parshendi form changing, this could just be an indicator that Parshendi are biomagically similar to the native Roshar life forms. Not that Odium purpose built Chasmfiends as his war machines.

[nightwatcher]

There is some commonality between the two, as far as I can tell, but also distinct differences. Could it be, perhaps, that men served honor, parshendi odium, and greatshells served cultivation? Perhaps in the last battles, the greatshells helped the humans in an uneasy alliance. However, as cultivation no longer gives a crap about humanity, they've now abandoned us to the voidbringers.

 

At the very least, I've found a snippet that seems to confirm, or at least heavily imply, that the greatshell's characteristics are at least partially dependent on its spren.

 

 

"Well," the creature said, "don't ask about the soul of their god. They don't like to speak of that, it turns out. Must be spectacular, to let the beasts grow this large. Beyond even the spren who inhabit the bodies of ordinary greatshells. Hmmm..." He seemed very pleased by something.

                                                                                                                                         -- Axies the collector, WoR, page 187

 

This quote is an obvious reference to the spren inhabiting the Reshi isles. Notice how it implies that the size of the Reshi Isles is dependant upon its spren, rather than the power of the spren being determined by the greatshell. There is a possibility that Axies, being mildly obsessed with spren, is simply inclined to think of the spren as more important than the island, but I doubt it. The wording seems to imply that he, at the very least, believes greatshells to rely on spren to determine physical characteristics.

 

But that makes me wonder. The spren inside the Reshi isles is powerful- Powerful enough to move a human body, when Syl had trouble with leaves. And yet, its seems... docile. Benevolent. What could happen if spren of similar power, but more aggressive nature, were to inhabit greatshells?

[Rockbud]

I always assumed great shells would be overtaken by void spren because of their gem hearts (somehow). Spren can be trapped inside them so it kind of makes sense that void spren could inhabbit the gem hearts.

Semi related note; do parshendi have gem hearts (maybe tiny ones that go in noticed? They care for their own dead after all). Could also be where they get the ones for their beards.

[mortalcoil]

Semi related note; do parshendi have gem hearts (maybe tiny ones that go in noticed? They care for their own dead after all). Could also be where they get the ones for their beards.

 I'd go with no on mini gemhearts. Even if they did they definitely wouldn't be the source of the beard-gems, they seemingly leave their dead to the stone I think.

 

There is some commonality between the two, as far as I can tell, but also distinct differences. Could it be, perhaps, that men served honor, parshendi odium, and greatshells served cultivation? Perhaps in the last battles, the greatshells helped the humans in an uneasy alliance. However, as cultivation no longer gives a crap about humanity, they've now abandoned us to the voidbringers.

I had actually written that in my post then decided to delete it. I had forgotten when I wrote it of Cultivations lack of care for humanity now. Although I don't think I'd label the Parshendi as "serving" Odium, more likely "claimed by". I'm pretty sure if greatshells fought anywhere they would cause enough collateral damage that it would never be called "help" for either side.

 

 

But that makes me wonder. The spren inside the Reshi isles is powerful- Powerful enough to move a human body, when Syl had trouble with leaves. And yet, its seems... docile. Benevolent. What could happen if spren of similar power, but more aggressive nature, were to inhabit greatshells?

Miniature internal Spren-wars over greatshells? How much it can move could be a measure of how powerful the Spren itself is. And now I just got curious about how the greatshells appear in shadesmar.

[Blightsong]

Voidbringers include anything Odium's investiture influences. Odium's mandate (intent) of Aggression does not allow Odium's investiture to bond well. Thus, Odium has to pour his investiture into a host through "holes." (WoB.) Stormspren IMO are corrupted windspren, just like the fish in the Dalinar Purelake vision was corrupted.

 

In the Purelake, the corrupted spren itself bonded with the rock mass that became the thunderclast - a type of Voidbringer. Similarly, with the listeners, the stormspren itself bonded. There was no direct bonding in either case between Odium's investiture and its ultimate host (unlike Syl and Kaladin, e.g.)

 

So...what are Voidbringers?

• Listeners who bond with spren carrying Odium's investiture.
• Thunderclasts - which I think are DEAD GREATSHELLS that Odium-corrupted spren resurrect.
• The "mindless" Unmade (according to the Diagram, not the "splinters") - which I think are DEAD LISTENERS whose remains have been "disturbed." (That's why listeners get so upset when Alethi bother their dead.)
• CORRUPTED HUMANS.- I have no textual evidence for this. Brandon says Odium's influence on humans is widespread. Whether this means humans just think odious thoughts or actually become bonded to spren holding Odium's investiture, I don't know. But the WoK Prelude scene never really distinguishes among combatants. For example, Kalak observes a place where "surgebinders fought." Did they fight each other or only "Voidbringers"? I think its unclear. And the Prelude image of humans in fur skins beside KR doesn't help clarify, since humans would fight on both sides if I'm right.

Just some thoughts...

 

FWIW, I put out a discussion of spren yesterday ("A Confused Primer on Spren") that I think addresses pretty important stuff (whether or not you agree with what's said). Perhaps my Internet etiquette slip is showing by mentioning this, but that post is one of a series I've been working on trying to explain things (my "Confused Theory of Everything"). The other important posts (IMHO) address "The Origin of the Cosmere," "The Shattering" and the "Mandates of the Known Shards." Those threads are all in the "Cosmere Theory" Forum. The "Spren Primer" is in this Forum, and I'm working on a long post about Desolations that tries to pull all these ideas together. That will also be posted in this Forum. Thanks!

I can't find it but there is a WoB that confirms that thunderclasts are animated stone. I like to think of them as kind of awakened stone.

[natc]

Well we did have a whole vision dedicated to a Thunderclast tearing itself out of the ground.

[Kelek's Breath]

So...what are Voidbringers?.

• CORRUPTED HUMANS.- I have no textual evidence for this. Brandon says Odium's influence on humans is widespread. Whether this means humans just think odious thoughts or actually become bonded to spren holding Odium's investiture, I don't know. But the WoK Prelude scene never really distinguishes among combatants. For example, Kalak observes a place where "surgebinders fought." Did they fight each other or only "Voidbringers"? I think its unclear. And the Prelude image of humans in fur skins beside KR doesn't help clarify, since humans would fight on both sides if I'm right.

I can see this happening and I also read the Prelude text as being ambiguous whether there were surgebinders on both sides of the battle, and I can imagine Ialai as one of the first Human corrupted (at some point Sadeas is talking to her and she is distracted and not paying attention-possibly speaking with a spren). After all, in one of the in-world WoR epigraphs, it talks about a Radiant and their spren being subverted by the enemy.

[Alfa]

Random thought: If the greatshell-theories here are true, imagine what consequences it would have, when chulls turn out to be slaveform-chasmfiends.