Are spren attracted to somebody/something or do they cause it?

[Kurkistan he/him]

I can roll with Rand/Meg's explanation for how spren function in different circumstances.

[Duskshard he/him]

The way I think of it, is that in order of the spren to be visible everywhere but shinovar then the highstorms must be the reason.

 

So I figured that either,

 

The highstorms must affect the environment in some way that makes the spren visible. 

 

The highstorms affect the spren making them visible.

 

The highstorms affect people allowing them to perceive the spren.

 

It's been a while since I've read the books, does anyone know if there's any reference of Szeth acknowledging the existence of spren?

[The Count he/him]

The way I think of it, is that in order of the spren to be visible everywhere but shinovar then the highstorms must be the reason.

 

So I figured that either,

 

The highstorms must affect the environment in some way that makes the spren visible. 

 

The highstorms affect the spren making them visible.

 

The highstorms affect people allowing them to perceive the spren.

 

It's been a while since I've read the books, does anyone know if there's any reference of Szeth acknowledging the existence of spren?

There is fourth option here...

There are no spren in Shinovar.

I agree that the highstorms are linked to this once the only thing we know for sure about Shinovar is that the highstorms do not reach there.

Weather there are no spren or that they are just invisible... Who knows.

[Duskshard he/him]

There is fourth option here...

There are no spren in Shinovar.

I agree that the highstorms are linked to this once the only thing we know for sure about Shinovar is that the highstorms do not reach there.

Weather there are no spren or that they are just invisible... Who knows.

 

That's true, since the highstorms appear to be the common denominator it could just be that spren can only exist where the highstorms touch the land.

[Jimmy moon]

I feel like there must be differemt classifications of spren, since there is so much variety as do what spren seem to do. Some seem to be attracted to things (fire, wind, fear, music) some seem to live simbioticly with things (skyeels, chasmfiends). Cuisech, in Iri, seems to take without giving. Could there be spre that give without taking?

I don't think there are spren in Shinovar. Axies says alspren only appear in Iri, there must be a pattern to the geographical habitats of spren

[Carcinios he/him]

Just had a thought.

Maybe we are looking at the Spren the wrong way. Rather than cause or attract could it not be attract and cause.

Now this is similar to what other people have said before but with a slight difference.

We see flamespren are attracted to flames, fearspren to fear etc. and we see to some degree Syl changin Kaladin by her nature. However Syl is initially attracted to kaladin's sense of honour. So initially it seems clear that spren don't cause something but are attracted to it.

 

But if that was a universal rule then it stands to reason that Syl shouldn't have caused the changes in Kaladin or become changed herself. So I see two possible explanations for why these changes took place.

 

1. honorspren are unique. This seems to be the favoured explanation at the moment but it doesn't quite fit for me. I think that spren largely will follow the same rules in their own way.

 

2. This is my thought. Spren grow stronger the more persistant the attribute they are attracted to is. Syl changes Kaladin because he is consistently honourable. It is a fundemental part of who he is and that means Syl doesn't leave him. They essentially get to the point where they are in a feedback loop of Syl being  so strongly attracted to Kaladin's honour that she binds to it instead giving Kaladin Radiant abilities. The reason that flamespren or windspren never show these traits is that fire is temporary and they are never strongly enough attracted to it to enter the binding phase of the relationship. My hypothesis is that the may be some kind of infernospren which are strongly enough bound to massive fires that they activily sustain them.

 

The question immediately arises as to why Dalinar (perhaps the most consistently honorable person in the series) has not attracted his own honorspren but given Syl's aversion to his shardblade it doesn't really destabalise the theory.

[Crysanja]

we know that sly and windspren can "play" with the physical world.

with this in mind i would say that different spren are attracted to different things.

 

like a creation spren to an artist performing.

 

now lets quickly look at children - if they find something interresting - a fire, an antnest, whatever

- what will they do? - they poke it, they try to play with it.

 

since spren are able to interact with the physical worlds and see some things as interresting. they will interact with thouse sometimes.

just to play.

 

humans do silly things, just because we can --spren can interact with the world, they will do so, just because they can.

 

 

so an attracted creation spen may interact with the artist in some way - propably make him work better, maybe change the colors a bit - idk

 

 

most spren seem to have some kind of group behaviour. something they think is very interresting, is creating or attracting larger and larger groups of them

 

odd here is that kaladin is so honorable to give sly an option to bind him, but we never see other honor spren near him.

[junior]

The question immediately arises as to why Dalinar (perhaps the most consistently honorable person in the series) has not attracted his own honorspren but given Syl's aversion to his shardblade it doesn't really destabalise the theory.

 

One possible reason is because something else (perhaps another spren, perhaps not) has already latched onto him.  Something's causing his visions, and it might be connected to his seeming lack of spren.  Not all spren are immediately apparent, after all.  We only know about his nephew's (probably) truth spren because of a single throwaway line.

 

Another possibility is that Dalinar's lack of honor spren is connected to the magic that affected his memory and perception of his wife.  It's possible that the spren can't bond with someone who's been affected by it.

[Kiwi]

The question immediately arises as to why Dalinar (perhaps the most consistently honorable person in the series) has not attracted his own honorspren but given Syl's aversion to his shardblade it doesn't really destabalise the theory.

 

I think these honorspren are unique in that it largely depends on how others view you.  It's difficult for Dalinar to attract positive attention towards his honorable actions because of the Alethi way of thinking.  The Alethi view fighting and vengeance to be honorable, rather than the way Dalinar portrays honor.

 

On the other hand, you can see Kaladin attract an honorspren because of the way others felt about him.  Before he was a slave, Syl was attracted to Kaladin, and she says it was from the loyalty of the men he commanded at the time.

[Millennium]

My theory is that spren are creatures of probability. When something is likely to occur, it attracts the spren. In turn, the spren -just by the mere fact of their presence- increase the likelihood that it will occur. They cannot quite increase it to 100% -the deathspren came for Kaladin, but he did not die- but other than that, we don't really know what extent their influence has.

 

Syl seems to think that she causes things. But she's also very new to being a "smart spren," so there is still a lot of room for her to be mistaken: this could be that special breed of ignorance that comes from knowing just enough to think you know everything. I think it's likely that smart spren can exercise some control over their influence, but can they control it to a point where they start causing things? I think that's a lot less certain. Brandon seems to be going for a quantum "feel" here.

 

Why doesn't Dalinar have an honorspren? This may be a form of cosmic irony. The world itself has come to recognize just how harsh this world has become: it's so unlikely for a nobleman (or, perhaps, anyone?) to form truly deep bonds or hold real honor that honorspren are no longer attracted to them. Thus, Dalinar does not have one. But since he now has a man with an honorspren working for him, and spren raise the probability of their chosen concepts (if my theory holds), maybe Syl will be the catalyst that allows an honorspren to find him.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Millennium

[Gloom he/him]

I believe that were all getting close.

 

My theory is that spren are attracted to their attribute, and reinforce it. So when Kaladin was dying, Syl fought the death spren because they were reinforcing the likelyhood of his death. Fight off the Death Spren, and Kaladins death becomes less certain. It doesn't mean Kaladin couldn't have still died, but it made his death less of a certainty. The same would be true of Creation Spren. The more you gather, the more creative your endevor becomes, because they reinforce your creativity. The more flame spren that appear, the stronger a fire becomes.

 

Honor Spren. Honor Spren behave differently than other spren. I have two theories for this. Either they are extremely rare, or they merge. By this I mean that instead of Kaladin getting swarmed by Honor Spren, the Honor Spren merge with Syl as the strength of her bond with Kaladin grows. This makes Syl stronger and more powerful. It culminates when Kaladin becomes a full Knight Radiant, at which point Syl is saturated with Honor Spren.

 

The Spren affect would persist of course. Syl reinforces Kaladins honor.

[Crysanja]

im not sure, but i think there was a scene in the book - on Kaladins army times - were a lighteyes attracted multiple honor spren.

so they might merge, but there can be more then one too.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Crysanja

[Meg]

im not sure, but i think there was a scene in the book - on Kaladins army times - were a lighteyes attracted multiple honor spren.

so they might merge, but there can be more then one too.

 

 

Can you give us a quote for that (I think, you're remembering something wrong here). 

[Gloom he/him]

im not sure, but i think there was a scene in the book - on Kaladins army times - were a lighteyes attracted multiple honor spren.

so they might merge, but there can be more then one too.

 

I'm pretty sure you are mixing up Honorspren and Gloryspren. I think Honorspren were mentioned all of two times in the entire novel.

[Crysanja]

it propably was glory spren, with the back and forth with kaladin in the book its kind of takes some time to find it, i dont want to spend =)

[Kurkistan he/him]

Yeah, they weren't honorspren. Gloom is right: exactly two mentions of honorspren in the book. The Nahoden flashback and the climax.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

The popular theory about Dalinar (at least at one point) was that he didn't have a spren because of his Shardblade and now that he's given it up he'll probably end up attracting a spren.

[Gloom he/him]

The popular theory about Dalinar (at least at one point) was that he didn't have a spren because of his Shardblade and now that he's given it up he'll probably end up attracting a spren.

 

I think it is more complicated than that. Before going to the Shattered Plains, Dalinar was unworthy of Honorspren. He has changed significantly, but most of that change was fairly recent. The Shards may have kept spren away, or perhaps he just hasn't noticed that he has been chosen by an Honorspren. It took Kaladin months before his Honorspren became significantly different from other spren and started communicating with him. There are moments during Dalinars fight scenes that you have to question if it is just the Thrill, or if he is inadvertently surgebinding like Kaladin did.

 

Then their is the possibility that Honorspren are localized to Alethekar. We know Alespren are localized, and there are a few other spren that are only seen in certain regions. There are even singular fixed spren like the fountain. If Honorspren don't travel over the Shattered Plains, Dalinar may not attract Honorspren until returning to his princedom.

 

If it is the Shards that prevent Dalinar from becoming a surgebinder, then how is it that every Knight Radiant wore Shards? Yes, we know that the Knights Radiant gave up their shards, but for all we know, they gave up surgebinding at the same time. At the very least, no new surgebinders replaced them.

 

Knowing Sandersons style, it isn't any one of these things, but a combination of things at play that have kept Dalinar from becoming a surgebinder.

[Gloom he/him]

I haven't looked extensively through this forum to understand the Odium Shard vs Honor Shard theory, but I don't recall any evidence from the book of Void Knights, so unless someone produces evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume that all Shards are of similar manufacture.

 

I can see the usage of the Shards as a valid argument, and believe that it may have been a contributing factor as to why the Knights Radiant gave theirs up.

[Crysanja]

dont forget Dalinar is under the effect of the old magic, i dont know what it changed for him, but maybe it prevents the bounding of spren.

[Gloom he/him]

dont forget Dalinar is under the effect of the old magic, i dont know what it changed for him, but maybe it prevents the bounding of spren.

I won't say this argument doesn't hold any weight.  It could very well be a factor.

 

On the other hand, there were times towards the end of TWoKs that I got the impression that Dalinar was already in the early stages of becoming a surge binder. Nothing specific, just an impression. It's easy to assume he would become a Wind Runner because of how honorable he is, but their were ten orders, and we've barely seen two. From a writers standpoint, making Dalinar a Wind Runner could  threaten to overshadow Kaladin whom many assume will be in charge of the Wind Runners. Making Dalinar a surgebinder from a different order would make more sense. It would give a new order some exposure with an already established character. His visions could be related to his order or not.

[Crysanja]

i wanted to throw in a few questions.

 

1.is there a limited number of flame spren in the world?

 

2.are spren creatures which eat, age, grow, give birth and die?

 

3.does a fire create flame spren, or is it just attracting them.

 

4.maybe there is a plain spren(mostly invisible), which turns into a flame spren when it gets near a fire? and turns back, when the fire is out?

 

5.can spren bound to animals or objects?

 

6.what do spren get out of the bond? <- they seem to get memory/ies and intelligence

 

 

sorry i guess some of thouse have answers, but i think they are key to this topic too.

 

 

edit: thanks to Gloom this makes things more clear.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Crysanja

[Gloom he/him]

1.is there a limited number of flame spren in the world?

 

2.are spren creatures which eat, age, grow, give birth and die?

 

There may be a finite number of spren at any one time, but we don't know enough about them to determine what laws govern them.

 

 

3.does a fire create flame spren, or is it just attracting them.

 

Fire attracts Flamespren. If spren were spontaneously created, then all spren could exist anywhere. Some spren are limited to geographic areas.

 

4.maybe there is a plain spren(mostly invisible), which turns into a flame spren when it gets near a fire? and turns back, when the fire is out?

 

If this were the case, then they would respond the same way no matter where a person went. They don't, Alespren are a great example of that since they only appear in Iri and even then infrequently. Furthermore, if Brandons publisher put out The Complete Spren Catalogue.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/04/way-of-kings-spren-catalogue

 

5.can spren bound to animals or objects?

 

6.what do spren get out of the bond? <- they seem to get memory/ies and intelligence

 

These are some interesting questions. Spren can be bound to objects. Surgebinders bind spren with their abilities temporarily. Soulcasters may be able to do so in a more permanent way. Outside of this, I really don't know.

 

But is you're really looking to solve a mystery, there is always Cusicesh the Protector. This little spren is a true oddity.

 

EDIT: "Luckspren" cluster around skyeels, and Chasmfiendspren float out of dead Chasmfiends. Luckspren are not actually in the text, rather the illustration prior to chapter three. The first would indicate that animals can attract spren, and the later may be an indication that spren can bond with some animal life.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Gloom

[Meg]

i wanted to throw in a few questions.

 

1.is there a limited number of flame spren in the world?

 

 

I'd say: we don't know. 

 

 

2.are spren creatures which eat, age, grow, give birth and die?

 

 

They don't seem to eat, age, grow (as we understand it) nor give birth, but spren can die.

 

 

3.does a fire create flame spren, or is it just attracting them.

 

That's (mostly) what that thread is about.

 

I stay with my opinion, that spren are attracted by something and then make themselves visible to the people. Once they are seen by the people that kind of enforces this people to stay with their actions even if this isn't intended. So I think when one is near to death he unconsciously sees death spren. Because he learned, that death spren appear, when one dies, he thinks he dies and then he dies faster/easier than if there are no death spren. This happens in his subconscious mind. 

 

I still don't believe that each and any spren can be "captured" or immobilized by being measured (as are the flame spren in Geranid's Interlude). 

 

 

4.maybe there is a plain spren(mostly invisible), which turns into a flame spren when it gets near a fire? and turns back, when the fire is out?

 

That means every 'plain' spren can become every visible spren? I'm not sure .

 

5.can spren bound to animals or objects?

 

Soulcasters contain spren. Are they bound to the Soulcasters? I don't know in mind. They are imprisoned in the Soulcasters, this we know. 

 

6.what do spren get out of the bond? <- they seem to get memory/ies and intelligence

 

That seems to work for Syl anyways. Whether the cryptics aren't sentient before binding, I don't know. 

 

 

And I'd like to quote Windrunner here relating to that Tor-link: 

 

The Tor.com articles, while fun to read, are not vetted by Brandon or Peter. That guy has no better idea of what the Nightwatcher is than any of the rest of us fans.

source

[Gloom he/him]

The Tor.com articles, while fun to read, are not vetted by Brandon or Peter. That guy has no better idea of what the Nightwatcher is than any of the rest of us fans.

And I'd like to quote Windrunner here relating to that Tor-link: 

 

Why?

 

First, the link was just informational in this post. It wasn't used to substantiate anything.

 

Second, while the Team Sanderson may not have officially vetted the link, they haven't discredited it either. The fact that the Night Watcher was absent from the list when the book referenced it in regards to spren may or may not be a factor. You think Tor publishes information like this without getting approval and a nod from the materials creator? If so, then why wasn't the Night Watcher included? Sloppy research? Really? From his publisher?

"These visions are not in line with what I've understood about the Nightwatcher," Renarin said. "Most consider her to be just some kind of powerful spren. Once you've sought her out and been given your reward and your curse, she's supposed to leave you alone. When did you seek her?"

 

Third, much of the information from that link were direct quotes from the Way of Kings. Yes, the author added additional information and opinion at times, but in regards to spren, it is a very good resource material that can save time for those who are interested in spren. I'm assuming direct quotes aren't under suspicion.