Spoilers!!! A new highprince

[ParadoxicalZen]

In regards to Kaladin being made a Highprince, I find it unlikely unless it is a King's Order/Edict as there is a whole WoB on rising/falling in nahn/dahn on theory land (http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='roshar' number 43) although being a Radiant in itself is enough to grant a fair amount of rank/prestige. As for Amaram....possible but until we know more the secret Societies and their reach/influence, i'm not putting my money on anyone taking the seat yeta although I think Ialai may be able to act as a sort of stand-in until new one is chosen or unless she marries (or perhaps their son if they had any children)

[Oudeis]

In regards to Kaladin being made a Highprince, I find it unlikely unless it is a King's Order/Edict

 

This was stipulated to in the original point; when Sadeas killed whoever, King Gavilar appointed Aladar. We're not saying that Alethi laws of primogeniture would automatically issue Sadeas's seat to Kaladin. We're saying, if there is no clear heir, there's precedent that the King gets to assign someone else to be a Highprince, and that he'd assign Kaladin.

 

The plain fact is, all of this is almost certainly ridiculous speculation. Sadeas had a wife to whom he'd been married for many years and who he seemed to be greatly attracted to. While it's odd that no one has mentioned his heirs yet, he almost certainly has at least one.

[maxal]

This was stipulated to in the original point; when Sadeas killed whoever, King Gavilar appointed Aladar. We're not saying that Alethi laws of primogeniture would automatically issue Sadeas's seat to Kaladin. We're saying, if there is no clear heir, there's precedent that the King gets to assign someone else to be a Highprince, and that he'd assign Kaladin.

 

The plain fact is, all of this is almost certainly ridiculous speculation. Sadeas had a wife to whom he'd been married for many years and who he seemed to be greatly attracted to. While it's odd that no one has mentioned his heirs yet, he almost certainly has at least one.

 

Do we have the solid confirmation it was King Galivar that ordered Yenev to be replaced by Aladar? It could be they knew Aladar would be the one to garner the most support providing Yenev died... They could have bribed the Brigthlords to elect him, but I do not recall it ever being said Galivar ordered it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt the king has the power to chose the Highprinces... They may be a kingdom, but it has been highlighter often enough the princedom are essentially independent...

 

As for Ialai, well, I would say it is entirely possible they spent a lifetime together without having a child... It is called infertility. Or perhaps it is she suffered many miscarriages and due to the lack of proper medical care, she ended up infertile. It happened often enough in royal families back in medieval times. They not having children is not at all surprising, though I'd wager they would have had some had they chose to, but life decided otherwise. The reasons for a couple to struggle at having children are multiples and in a world where "aid to conception" is a not a reality, such couples would end up childless. 

 

Overall, I'd say the Alethi birthrate does not seem very high... most families have few children... which is rather uncommon for societies offering only primitive birth control methods... dry-nets someone     

[Oudeis]

Do we have the solid confirmation it was King Galivar that ordered Yenev to be replaced by Aladar? It could be they knew Aladar would be the one to garner the most support providing Yenev died... They could have bribed the Brigthlords to elect him, but I do not recall it ever being said Galivar ordered it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt the king has the power to chose the Highprinces... They may be a kingdom, but it has been highlighter often enough the princedom are essentially independent...

 

The Highprinces are supposed to do what they're told. They don't, usually, but they're supposed to. Those are the laws. Before the War of Unificiation, scant decades ago, they basically were separate Kingdoms, not a unified Alethkar. Gavilar bound them and set himself as King. Presumably, it's not impossible he would have given himself strong powers, such as the right to appoint a Highprince in the absence of one.

 

As for Ialai, well, I would say it is entirely possible they spent a lifetime together without having a child... It is called infertility. Or perhaps it is she suffered many miscarriages and due to the lack of proper medical care, she ended up infertile. It happened often enough in royal families back in medieval times. They not having children is not at all surprising, though I'd wager they would have had some had they chose to, but life decided otherwise.

 

First of all, I never said impossible, just very unlikely, and second of all, I never said child. I said heir. You're right. Maybe Ialai was never able to bear a live child to Torol. Who cares? A nephew would work, a cousin, failing all of that, he could have taken a trusted lieutenant and done whatever you do in Alethkar, "adopt" him or simply appoint him your legal heir. In the reasonably small chance that they've been married this long without fruit, there are still many, many other options for Torol to have an heir.

 

And before you go ahead and spin me a tale, yes, I know that there could still technically be ways for him to be without heir. Providing an anecdote will mean nothing, however, so please resist the urge. it's possible, but in the circumstances would be unlikely. Still, it is why this thread is something other than pointless; because there's a chance, however small, that the Highprincedom is without a clear ruler.

 

It still boggles my mind that you have no problem acknowledging the possibility not only that Torol somehow doesn't have an heir, but that a disgraced and fleeing proven murderer would be appointed Highprince because a widow who has no reason to aid him would somehow find proof that Adolin killed Sadeas and use it to blackmail the King... but you will not consider the possibility that Kaladin might be appointed, because you feel he lacks administrative skills. You know that they are typically inherited positions, right? Meaning no Highprince ever has to have aptitude or training in running a Highprincedom? This is a place where "Who died and made you Highprince?" applies. Even Dalinar himself didn't bother starting to teach Adolin how to run an army (let alone a Highprincedom) until he'd more-or-less made the decision to abdicate. What has Adolin done to make him more qualified as Highprince than Kaladin?

[maxal]

I went overboard. I am sorry. I apologized.

 

Oudeis, since my existence seem to trouble you so much, I would appreciate if you made an effort to ignore it.

Edited August 3, 2015 by maxal

[Oudeis]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply your existence bothers me. Your convictions confuse me sometimes, but I can handle being confused. When my position gets misrepresented and dismissed (in a somewhat brusque way), that does bother me, but you do that infrequently enough.

[maxal]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to imply your existence bothers me. Your convictions confuse me sometimes, but I can handle being confused. When my position gets misrepresented and dismissed (in a somewhat brusque way), that does bother me, but you do that infrequently enough.

 

Your previous post was.... something. The tone of it was mean and patronizing which I did not feel I deserved. I removed my previous response because it was not kind at all towards your person. It was late and I had allowed my self to be drawn into a petty game. For this, I apologized: I broke one of my rules.

 

 

And before you go ahead and spin me a tale, yes, I know that there could still technically be ways for him to be without heir. Providing an anecdote will mean nothing, however, so please resist the urge. it's possible, but in the circumstances would be unlikely. Still, it is why this thread is something other than pointless; because there's a chance, however small, that the Highprincedom is without a clear ruler.

 

This is incredibly patronizing and dismissing. Your tone was mean. You did not have to attack my person to defend your point. It was uncalled for. Trying to dismiss as a silly woman who obviously knows more than you do on this to hide he fact your argument does not hold the road was also undignified. I mentioned infertility because you seemed to disbelieve people could be without heir which is baffling as our world is filled with kings and nobility who failed to produce heirs, adoption was never used as the blood line was deemed too important: you had to be born to the right persons. Considering the lack of modernity on Roshar and the importance they attribute to their blood lines, it seems heavily likely the same would apply. 

 

 

 

It still boggles my mind that you have no problem acknowledging the possibility not only that Torol somehow doesn't have an heir, but that a disgraced and fleeing proven murderer would be appointed Highprince because a widow who has no reason to aid him would somehow find proof that Adolin killed Sadeas and use it to blackmail the King... but you will not consider the possibility that Kaladin might be appointed, because you feel he lacks administrative skills. You know that they are typically inherited positions, right? Meaning no Highprince ever has to have aptitude or training in running a Highprincedom? This is a place where "Who died and made you Highprince?" applies. Even Dalinar himself didn't bother starting to teach Adolin how to run an army (let alone a Highprincedom) until he'd more-or-less made the decision to abdicate. What has Adolin done to make him more qualified as Highprince than Kaladin?

 

In there, you keep on being patronizing by being completely oblivious to everything I have said in the thread. My convictions? I said on numerous occasions this was not a rock-proof serious theory. All I said is I believed, given the state of Alethi politics, they would be more likely to chose Amaram than Kaladin as the next Highprince. Kaladin, it is simply not even a possibility, not right now. I don't even need to explain why they wouldn't chose him for this position. It is self-explanatory. Unless you believe the entire political system of Alehtkar will collapse within a week, if so though I would invite you to consult the history of both France and England to get a better view on how revolutions truly go in a plausible world. It takes time, a storming lot of time for things to truly change and often, the revolution fails.

 

The fact you may believe Kaladin is better placed than Adolin to be Highprince is baffling. Adolin simply spent everyday of the last 6 years of his life trailing after his father and being his right hand man. He has bathed into Alethi politics since he was a little boy, he is smart enough to know his strengths, to listen to advice and to take it if it makes sense. Since when does Kaladin, the son of a surgeon from a small town, who spend the last 6 years either spear fighting, being a slave or bridge running, who never listens to anyone except himself is more qualified, more knowledgeable of the task at hand than Adolin? Kaladin knows nothing of the lighteyes world, worst, he fails at seeing the big picture more often than not while Adolin is an apt leader of an army comprising multiple thousands of individuals. Kaladin rules over a 1000 and he struggles, not to mention the huge social missteps he often does. He is not ready.

[Confused]

I"ll see both your speculations and raise you one: Elokhar's son is Sadeas' heir and Ialai will be his regent until he comes of age.

 

I believe that Gavrilar agreed with Sadeas that their children would marry in order to secure Sadeas's support for Gavrilar's monarchy. Queen Ayuden (sp?) is Sadeas and Ialai's daughter. Who else would Elokhar marry when his father is trying to forge a kingdom?

 

Ialai is the most powerful woman in Alethkar. She runs the best spy network. She is the widow of the most powerful Highprince, after Dalinar's army was eviscerated.

 

I mentioned this in a different thread, and a similar conversation apparently has been ongoing here: When Adolin is discovered to be Sadeas's murderer (and he will be, and will probably even confess), Ialai will be entitled to have him executed. She will agree to transmute the sentence into life banishment in exchange for his and Dalinar's shardblades. That gives her three (ijncluding Oathbringer), plus Amaram's blade. That's a lot of power by Alethi standards.

 

This speculation is based on the question, what would Sadeas want and get to throw his support to Gavrilar? You never hear about Sadeas's family. To me, it's inconceivable he wouldn't have children. He and Ialai seem so sensual, languid in their relationship, exactly the kind of parents who would raise a child like Ayuden, Who else would want syncophants lavishing her with praise while her city languished into riot. Remember, Jasnah wanted her dead.

 

I also think this whole episode will raise the issue about why only women can be educated but not hold positions of power. Brandon has said that's cultural. I suspect it's because, like with Vorinism, someone made the decision to separate power from knowledge.

[maxal]

Aseduan is not Sadeas's daughter and as I said earlier, being sensual does not guaranty the birth of healthy children, not in a world where modern medical care is unavailable. It's obvious they would have tried, but if such child exist, he would have been mentioned by now. It all points towards them not being able to have children. It happens and unlike some other people seemed to think, the percentage of individuals having issues conceiving is not insignificant. It is quite the opposite actually. However, most issues linked to infertility are treatable, but not on Roshar. They just don't have this technology. So yes, a long time couple without children is entirely possible and not exceptional either.

 

Though I believe Aseduan is indeed related to Sadeas in some measure, it was rather far. As for Elhokar's son, he can't inherit the kingdom and a princedom. Galivar had to step down when he took the kingship, so even if the boy ends up being the only male heir remotely linked to Sadeas, he can't have the princedom.

 

The most likely outcome is one of the House Lords following Sadeas will be chosen, if not Amaram, then someone we have never heard of. They would never appoint someone outside the princedom of Sadeas to rule over, especially not someone linked to the Kholins in any way. The Kholins killed their Highprince and are getting too powerful. Anyone not already within the princedom would automatically be ruled out. This is a delicate situation. 

 

The Sadeas agreeing to strike a deal with the Kholins, exchanging power against a lesser sentence towards Adolin also is possible. They would gain more this way then by beheading Adolin, especially since Adolin's reputation would be totally ruined from the ordeal. Apart from giving them instantaneous satisfaction as seeing him dead or exiled, they would not gain much in the long term. A deal seems plausible, especially for cunning Ialai. It probably won't happen, but it is not as ludicrous as some individuals seem to think. In fact, if Ialai does not try to turn the situation to her advantage, I will be seriously deceived: she is supposed to be shrewd.

[Twenty@20]

I get a sinking feeling that all this speculation about Highprince succession and associated politics will come to a nought in the face of the Desolation. The neutral highprinces will folk towards Dalinar because they are out of their depths in the face of the Desolation. Among Sadeas' faction Aladar already jumped ship and Ruthar is disgraced through his son. Ialai will have a personal vendetta against the Kholins but she will be hardpressed to find allies.

 

The power of being a Highprince will go for a toss when when the only job of a Highprince is to direct the war effort against the Voidbringers. And dont forget the Voidbringers will target the highprinces. Good luck to whoever wants to be a non-Radiant Highprince. Also its unlikely that Dalinar wll try to install Kaladin as a highprince because Kaldin will be much more valuable as a one man army.

 

I think Dalinar will next try to unite the whole of Roshar and in that his next challenge will be Taravangian.

[Alfa]

Would be interesting to know, if Sadeas has illegitimate children. Hoid is talking somewhere in TWOK about Sadeas visiting whores, and in Mr. T's chapter in WOR is mentioned something, like the illegitimate heterochromatic-eyed son of highprince Valam could have a claim on the title of his father, even if it was strongly diminished by his eye-colour, illegitimate status and the fact, that he stabbed his own father. So, if sadeas has an illegitimate child (especially a bright-eye) a gang could try to make this child the new highprince.

[Ascendant Warrior]

Would be interesting to know, if Sadeas has illegitimate children. Hoid is talking somewhere in TWOK about Sadeas visiting whores, and in Mr. T's chapter in WOR is mentioned something, like the illegitimate heterochromatic-eyed son of highprince Valam could have a claim on the title of his father, even if it was strongly diminished by his eye-colour, illegitimate status and the fact, that he stabbed his own father. So, if sadeas has an illegitimate child (especially a bright-eye) a gang could try to make this child the new highprince.

 

I believe that that particular illegitimate child is the son of the Veden Highprince shown in Shallan's flashbacks.

 

I am not sure who will actually be chosen to succeed Sadeas, but I think it will happen and it will be important to the plot of the next book.  Amaram seemed like a logical choice, but the arguments on this thread have convinced me that I am probably wrong. I don't think Adolin or Kaladin are good choices, if Elhokar is to appoint someone.

 

Regarding Adolin, I believe his arc is heading elsewhere. I'm with Maxal that I think Adolin will revive his dead blade, but I actually don't think his assassination of Sadeas will weigh on him very heavily, at least to the point of affecting the entire kingdom's politics. He did what had to be done, and that may provide the spiritual cracks needed for the future Nahel bond.

 

Kaladin obviously has his own issues and duties that make him less compatible with the position of Highprince.

 

I expect it will be a lower ranked Brightlord that takes the princedom, perhaps one we've seen, perhaps not.

Edited August 4, 2015 by lord_mistborn4