DALINAR FLASHBACKS DONE?

[Orlion Blight]

For the comparison, I like the Joker; the Joker is the reason why Batman is as interesting a character as he is. So, the comparison itself wasn't supposed to be insulting.

 

I believe Szeth's importance is as an antagonist, as an obstacle for other characters. I do not want him to be "redeemed" and sing kombuyya with the newly formed Knights Radiants, I want him to continue to be a foil! A protagonist is about as good as the challenges he faces, and once those challenges are resolved... what good is the protagonist? 

 

Szeth is an important character, so long as he continues down this road. The Diagram pretty much said, "Hey, make sure he does not escape being Truthless, or you can kiss your chull goodbye!" I'd like to see why that is, how such a frightening opponent that has all ready thrown the civilized world into chaos can possibly be worse! Makes me sad that his flashbacks won't appear until book 5, but I'll live, somehow.

[ljósmóður]

Well, I was very strongly invested in Kaladin as a character and adored his flashback sequences so, to an extent, my personal feelings about who gets the flashbacks in SA3 is that it doesn't really matter because I won't love them as much as I did WoK. That's not to say I don't like the other characters who are rumoured to be flashback ones - I do, particularly Dalinor.

 

Looking at it dispassionately and considering the way the arc will look by book 5, I'm happy with the choice to explore Dalinor's past rather than Szeth's at this point. Dalinor, as a bondsmith is destined to be a lynchhpin for the Radiants so having his book at the centre or pivot point of a 5 book arc makes sense to me. Also, he's the character, thus far, who knows the most history about the KR through his study of the ancient texts and his flashbacks. Exploring his past and how it ultimately feeds into his interest (obsession) with the eponymous texts means there is scope for a lot more information about the Knights Radiant, their history and how that history will affect the new protoradiants. I agree with pps who have said that having Szeth as the final flashback character feels satisfying from a literary perspective. He opened the whole shebang so rounding off the first arc with him feels right to me.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Mrs.K.Stormblessed

[maxal]

Maxal, I was the one that downvoted you on this post. You're making some wild, baseless comments (like how most people don't want to read about Szeth's backstory, and how it won't tell us anything important), which I completely disagree with. You may not be interested in such things because you're fixated on Adolin, but other people are.

 

First of, thank you for coming forward and explaining in details why you felt my previous post deserved a downvote. I truly appreciate this. It makes for a more decent conversation and it allows me to respond to your criticisms. You make a few valid points concerning my previous post, which certainly wasn't my best work and I will address them.

 

You start by accusing me of making the baseless assumption most readers do not want to read about Szeth. I will address this in a short while, but before I want to skip to the end of your first paragraph. You claim my lack of interest in Szeth is caused by excess of interest into Adolin: this is wrong and if it is the message I have conveyed, then I have badly expressed myself. The reason I do not wish to read about Szeth is not because I wish to read more about Adolin: the two are uncorrelated. There are plenty of characters I enjoy reading about, apart from my clear favorite: Szeth is just not one of them.

 

I will explain in this post why.

 

 

I think Szeth's back story will be very interesting. Not only will we find out more about the Shin and the Stone Shamanate, but we'll also find out more about Cultivation (assuming we are right and she is hiding out in Shin), the Honourblades, probably the Heralds too, as we know at least one of them has been to retrieve their Blade.

 

In your accusation of me making baseless claims as to most readers level of interest into Szeth, I believe you were referencing to this part of my post:

 

Do not get me wrong, people generally want to know about the Shin culture and what Szeth will do with Nightblood, but not many has expressed the desire to find out about his personality, he inner self.

 

In your reply, you have, probably inadvertently, confirmed my statement. I claimed most readers are not interested into Szeth, the character, but more on the world-building going on around him. This "baseless" claim I made was based on the numerous discussions we have had on this very forum on the subject of Szeth. I have noticed the most predominant reasons why people wanted to read about Szeth were those you have enumerated into your post: Shin culture, Nightblood, Honorblades, Heralds, etc. Whereas these are very valid reasons to wish for the Szeth flashbacks, these are also not truly related to Szeth, as an individual. In other words, we do not need the flashbacks to find out about those things which brings me to my other point.

 

What are flashbacks for?

 

Based on what we have seen so far in the first two books, flashbacks serve mostly to further develop the characters they revolved around. They are solely character based. Kaladin's explored his teenage years and the turn of events that led him to become a slave, but more importantly, they craft him as an individual. Shallan's served a similar purpose: there were not many events in her flashbacks, but they events presented helped us understand her better and craft her into a better character.

 

Essentially, flashbacks are character development initiative, or so they are, up to now. From my perspective (and my perspective can be entirely wrong, but I do base myself on the clues we currently have at hand), the flashbacks main goal are not to further enhance the world-building, but the characters. I do classify information pertaining the Shin and the Honorblades as world-building and they do not need to be explore via a flashback. The present narrative can also be used for this.

 

That being said, why do I not want to read Szeth? Because I have no empathy for him and I doubt Brandon will find a way to present him in a favorable enough light for me to feel it. Why? All clues at hand suggest Szeth was made a Truthless because the Shins declared his words about the return of the Radiants were false. He was given a stone, a Honorblade and asked to obey ANY order given to him by the owner of the stone, no matter what it is or else his soul will be lost. The fact that Szeth, by a pure excess of Faith, managed to convince himself it was more right to slay innocents, start wars and break every countries laws then to wager his soul so totally, completely, irrevocably clashes with my personal beliefs in the manner I am incapable of finding a glimmer of pity for him.

 

Szeth thus is a villain and not a very good one as he does not assume his evilness. My interest into him, as a character is thus close to none and this is independently of any information we may glare at through his flashbacks as again, there are other ways to find out those very same things.

 

I may have expanded my personal feelings towards Szeth to a larger number of persons, but the fact remains he is not a universally loved character: either here or elsewhere, many people are not too keen on reading more about Szeth. Yes, there are, of course people who love the character, but there are also a fair share of people who wished he had remained dead. So base on this qualitative observation of mine, I have made my previous comment. It perhaps was not phrased in the appropriate way.

 

I hope this shed more light into my previous post. I wished to say more, but I am deeply afraid my computer will kill my message, so here it is.  

[kaellok]

See, I too love the character of the Joker and I agree (with whoever said) that his character makes Batman the character he is. But there is simply no comparison between the Joker and Szeth, especially where their backstories come in. Joker's present, his love for chaos, are what make the story interesting. With Szeth, everything we've been told about him is about his past. Almost all we know about his people and him personally are based on reflections about his past. It has been heavily foreshadowed that he knew something, or learned something, about the coming of Radiants and Voidbringers. With the Joker, you're right that his backstory doesn't add to the story. Rather, his vague background adds to his mystique, which adds to the story. But with Szeth, his background has already been stated to be important to the story. 

 

Think of it like this. What if you knew that the Joker had foreseen Batman's coming and had tried to do something to preemptively help Batman against his enemies, only to wind up becoming a villain because of those actions which were intended to help. Would his backstory be important then? You becha. What if that was foreshadowed from the beginning, the very beginning, of Joker's story?

 

I also want to point out to people how frequently the comment of "I didn't like Shallan until WoR" comes up. There's a good chance that whatever Brandon already has planned for Szeth will turn a lot of peoples' opinions around.

Yay!  Lots of new posts to read, and a lot with some fascinating stuff.  Love it!

 

Give us POV chapters of Szeth, by all means.  Let us learn about what happened, yes.  I don't think that it's going to be anything amazing that surprises many people, though.  I know we're in disagreement here, which is fine, but I think that the present and future for Szeth are of far more importance than his past--and more importantly, would add significantly more to the story than telling what happened in his past would at this point.  Wow, that sentence sucked, let me try again.  This time with an entire paragraph!

 

Point of view in third-person limited (where we're outside someone's head, but we only get to see inside one at a time, usually broken by chapter) is used as a storytelling device to help the readers relate to, be sympathetic to, or understand a character.  The flashback chapters we have had so far have been entirely to make us sympathetic to the characters, so I'm assuming that will continue to be the case, especially given who the flashback characters are expected to be.  Szeth is in a weird position of being a major character who has seen relatively little screentime, limited development, and whose actions are entirely unsympathetic at all (which wars with his thoughts, which, especially in WoK, are incredibly sympathetic.)  All we really know about his past is that he believed something to be true, was told that it wasn't, and due to reasons now has to obey whoever is holding a specific rock--because to do otherwise would be to deny his faith (yes, yes, simplistic explanation and not respectful, but that's really what it boils down to.)  Nothing more about his past is needed for him to be a great character--just screen-time.

 

And I think that filling in the blanks of the past would help to destroy what he could be as a character, just as it would destroy the Joker as a character.  At least, for the person he is now.  He needs time to travel and develop more into something other, if that's Brandon's intent; or, at least, giving that time and development would make the rest a whole lot easier a sell to people like me.

 

Regarding Shallan, how many people actively disliked her going into WoR?  From my very unscientific survey of 0 people, and just based from what I remember, most people found her boring in WoK.  So, there's a difference between disinterest and active dislike.

 

I'd also like to say that if Szeth's past is as important as so many of you keep telling me (which is possible; I really really really need to know who sent Szeth to kill Galivar, after all), then it still makes the most sense for him to be Book 5.  To see the very beginning meet with the very end (of the 5-book arc, at least.)

 

(also, as a side-note: Sanderson has some great characters.  I feel more strongly and passionately about them than most, and am far more willing to spend hours discussing ones that I don't like, because even if I don't like them, I don't for strong reasons, and I also enjoy how I don't like them.)

[Bort]

Nice post, Maxal. Have an upvote to cancel out the downvote I gave you

 

When I said that you were making assumptions about how not everyone wanted to read about Szeth, I was referring to this comment of yours:

 

Szeth... well Szeth is not a character most people want to read about

 

My comment about your Adolin obsession simply came from the number of posts I've seen from you about how Adolin should have their own book, and Adolin this, and Adolin that, and so on.

 

Personally, I'm curious about Szeth himself. Yes, I'm interested in everything I mentioned in my previous post (which you quoted as being the bits that people are interested in in Szeth's flashbacks), but I'm also interested in finding out exactly what kind of person Szeth was before he was made Truthless. What kind of person goes out and commits all of those atrocities, to keep his personal honour intact, all because his leaders did not believe him when he warned of the Radiants' return? I'm expecting Szeth's back story to fill in, not just a lot about the world, but also a lot about who Szeth actually is.

 

It's the same with Kaladin's and Shallan's flashbacks. Yes, it explained a lot about who they are, and what motivates them, but both flashbacks did quite a bit of worldbuilding.

[maxal]

Nice post, Maxal. Have an upvote to cancel out the downvote I gave you

 

When I said that you were making assumptions about how not everyone wanted to read about Szeth, I was referring to this comment of yours:

 

Well I agree this was not perhaps phrased in the appropriate way. It left no room for disagreement so I must agree with your critic: I should not have have state my thoughts in such manner. I had not realized I was making a baseless assumption and it was not my intent. I am glad I managed to clarify my position on the matter.

 

 

My comment about your Adolin obsession simply came from the number of posts I've seen from you about how Adolin should have their own book, and Adolin this, and Adolin that, and so on.

 

Personally, I'm curious about Szeth himself. Yes, I'm interested in everything I mentioned in my previous post (which you quoted as being the bits that people are interested in in Szeth's flashbacks), but I'm also interested in finding out exactly what kind of person Szeth was before he was made Truthless. What kind of person goes out and commits all of those atrocities, to keep his personal honour intact, all because his leaders did not believe him when he warned of the Radiants' return? I'm expecting Szeth's back story to fill in, not just a lot about the world, but also a lot about who Szeth actually is.

 

It's the same with Kaladin's and Shallan's flashbacks. Yes, it explained a lot about who they are, and what motivates them, but both flashbacks did quite a bit of worldbuilding.

 

I know I appear as being mildly obsessed over Adolin as a character, which is not a completely wrong assumption to make. However my interest in him does not deter me from enjoying story lines from other characters. For instance, here are the different POV/plot lines I have enjoyed in SA that aren't related to him:

1) Kaladin's flashbacks in WoK. I thought those were thoroughly effective and compelling.

2) Kaladin's entire story arc in WoK. I absolutely loved the fact Kaladin just did not give up and get on trying to make things better for himself and his men. However, I loved even more to see him succeed in his endeavors. Having his effort being rewarded was entirely satisfying.

3) Shallan's story arc prior to arriving to the Shattered Plains. Yeah, I actually loved to read about her taking herself into control and refusing to be the scared little girl anymore. I loved how she self-rescued herself after her ship-wreck.

4) Dalinar at the Tower, finally admitting he has been wrong all along. Great one. I loved to have him be... wrong by an excess of faith. It made him fallible. I also loved how he stumped down childish Elhokar. Finally.

5) The interludes with Reddin and the one in Kohlinar were interesting to read. I had an absolute instant interest in Reddin, the king of Jah Keved's bastard and I do wish to read more about him. There is just something about his character that struck a cord in me. I loved the Kohlinar one for the celebration of waste and the opulent life of the queen's subjects at antipodes of Dalinar's strict regime in the Shattered Plains.

6) Kaladin's story line in WoR up until he was send into prison. I loved to read about his not always harmonic adjustments to his new life as a Captain, his refusal to eat a choufa and his arrogant comments on the various lighteyes surrounding him, completely oblivious to the fact he was the one being petulant. I literally jump on my coach when he finally decided to take a stand and enter the 4 on 1 duel. That was a great moment.

7) Dalinar and Navani being.... holding each other and making noises....

8) Pattern. Everything about Pattern was great, especially when he goes to spy on Sebrarial's bath.

There are probably other, but these come to mind spontaneously.

 

The reason I advocate so much for Adolin to get a decent spot in the story is because I feel the character deserves to be treated on equal footing as the other major characters Brandon keeps on mentioning: he has, after all many POV. I feel the story is better with him in it than without him. His POV may no dealt with world changing actions, they do enhanced the story in a way Szeth POV do not, in my humble opinion. However, my love of one character does not prevent me from loving other characters: love does not divide itself, it multiplies itself.

 

The truth is, I have disliked all of Szeth POV. I skimmed through them rapidly as I found I had little interest in him, as a character. We could say Brandon has not find an angle into which I could find him sympathetic enough to wish to read about him. I agree Szeth as a role to play in the story, but his thoughts are ones I wish to read about. Therefore, for me, finding a character with about 10 POV in both books I have little interest in and no sympathy for is bound to take over most of next book was a dreaded thought. 

 

I hope to be able to revise my opinion by book 5.-

[hypatia]

If I remember right the question if Szeth only acts honourbound was RAFO.

There is something strange with him - first I thought of him like Galilei - telling a unwanted truth and facing the consequences, but believing further in his opinion.

But this was wrong - he doesn't believe in his opinion anymore - he believes strongly in being wrong.

He's all "I failed, I deserve this punishment, it's justified".

And in the end all it needs is Kaladin, no disputation or something magical, to bring this to an end, only the manifestation of a Knight Radiant.

It looks like there was more than only honour, but not magic, rather something like a religious bounding, because all depends on his believe in himself.

[DreamEternal]

The way I understand the Shin is that it is like a nation wide cult, every member shamed, scared and brainwashed since birth to obey the cult leaders, with no possibility of release else their soul is destroyed. I suspect that such cult was created to prepare for the final desolation, since Szeth says in his WoR interlude that he raised the alarm, but I think its leaders went drunk with power and didn't want to share their Blades and secrets with the world, so they created an rule that who raises the alarm too early, risking their secrecy, is turned into a truthless. Szeth, brainwashed since his birth to obey, does what any good machine would do and complies.

Edited July 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[EvilNuff]

Hope this isn't too far off topic but I find it interesting hearing from others which characters they like and which they dislike (and the reasons why).  I know I like Adolin and Szeth both and eagerly looked forward to Szeth chapters (and there is of course another character I somewhat dislike and one I detest as well, lol).  I would love to hear more from others on which characters they actively liked or disliked more than the norm (and why).

[DreamEternal]

The reason that I like Szeth is because of my interpretation of the Shin above. It is fascinating, in a dark way, to see how such culture and mentality can turn even the most compassionate of people into tools of destruction, and how his compassion, when contained, only serves to torture him. I only hope that he can find peace, now that he realized the Stone Shamans are wrong. Now he only needs to abandon a lifetime of obedience, come to peace with himself and tell Nin to storm off, so...

Well, one can only hope. If it helps understand my liking of the character, I see Szeth as a victim of his culture, almost deprived of his free will, and his flaw is not a lack of morality, but of strenght to disobey, and I believe one should not be punished for being too weak.

Edited July 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[maxal]

Hope this isn't too far off topic but I find it interesting hearing from others which characters they like and which they dislike (and the reasons why).  I know I like Adolin and Szeth both and eagerly looked forward to Szeth chapters (and there is of course another character I somewhat dislike and one I detest as well, lol).  I would love to hear more from others on which characters they actively liked or disliked more than the norm (and why).

 

There are a few threads where we talk about our favorite and our least favorite ones. However, if you have something else in mind, you can always start it 

[+Wax]

How many was TWoK?

387k

Source:

http://cesspit.net/drupal/node/1869/

Edited July 23, 2015 by axcellence

[Darkness]

I'm excited for Szeth's character development, both as a function of flashback sequences providing backstory and his future in the SA. Actually, I would even find it agreeable (and hilarious) if

Szeth's resurrection

was really just a red herring, and his flashbacks were put off in order to dampen the general riot that would ensue. Observe:

Nightblood to Szeth in WoR, "Do you want to destroy some evil today?"

Szeth to Nightblood in first few pages of Oathbringer, full of self-loathing and recognition, "I am Evil."

*poof* Szeth dies. For good. End. Full stop.

But then, I have an admittedly strange sense of humour

[Bort]

I don't think that'll be the case, but I do have to admit it would be really funny if it did happen like that.

[DreamEternal]

I don't...

How the...

What.

My sense of humor dies not registrate this.

My sense of artistic merit is screaming in denial.

My sense of logic doens't care anymore.

My sense of compassion looks down on you all for enjoying this kind of humor.

Just kidding. But that is not my kind of humor.

Edited July 25, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern