When did Odium kill Honor?

[Colateralwar]

We know from the final vision that Dalinar received that all of the visions, save the last one, were events that Honor himself witnessed. Therefore, we know that he survived at least until the day of Recreance.

 

I think that the death of Roshar's God, known or not, would have had a visible and powerful impact on the land. Therefore I think it is extremely important to ask when exactly Honor was killed? Was it right before Dalinar began receiving the visions? On the day of Recreance, when the Radiants abandoned their shards? Or some other key date. I think it stands to reason that his demise would correspond with some significant event, explaining it in someway.

 

Any ideas?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Colateralwar

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I think that the death of Roshar's God, known or not, would have had a visible and powerful impact on the land.

Nobody noticed when Leras died.

[Colateralwar]

Nobody noticed when Leras died.

Good Point, hadn't thought of that. Although to be fair Scadrial was already falling to pieces... might be kinda hard to tell if something was further screwed up by his dying.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Good Point, hadn't thought of that. Although to be fair Scadrial was already falling to pieces... might be kinda hard to tell if something was further screwed up by his dying.

On the one hand, Kelsier took up the power, which apparently prevented BAD THINGS from happening.

On the other hand, spren already act as the leak to prevent a Dor-type situation from happening. We know that new spren appeared or changed when Honor was shattered, but that's not necessarily something that would be immediately noticeable, given how erratic and difficult to track spren are.

[Voidus]

Yeah I was going to say, Leras just died, Preservation wasn't Splintered like Honor was

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Yeah I was going to say, Leras just died, Preservation wasn't Splintered like Honor was

Splintering is a long and time-consuming process, though.

I suspect Tanabanana was dead already

Edited April 29, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[darkanimereal1]

On the one hand, Kelsier took up the power, which apparently prevented BAD THINGS from happening.

On the other hand, spren already act as the leak to prevent a Dor-type situation from happening. We know that new spren appeared or changed when Honor was shattered, but that's not necessarily something that would be immediately noticeable, given how erratic and difficult to track spren are.

 

Ooh, do you have a reference for the spren changing thing? I didn't know about that.

 

Splintering is a long and time-consuming process, though.

I suspect Tanabanana was dead already

 

Also, thumbs up on the much-easier-to-remember-nick-name.

 

Anyway, although I'm not sure if there would have been a large, noticeable effect when Honor was shattered, I do think this is still an excellent question. I've been wondering this for a while. I'm glad that you pointed out that Honor was still alive for all of his visions up to the last one--I wouldn't have thought of that right away. My guess is that his death falls somewhere in here:

 

The current calendar in the Era of Solitude did not begin at the end of Aharietiam, but a date approximately three thousand years afterward.

Somewhere in those first 3,000 years. Source here: http://coppermind.net/wiki/Era_of_Solitude

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Ooh, do you have a reference for the spren changing thing? I didn't know about that.

It's secondhand signing info that I located on a different forum. Lemme dig it up...

I went to a Sanderson book signing today and whether spren existed before (Way of Kings ending spoiler) Odium killed the Almighty and shattered the Honor shard. His answer was that some of the spren existed, but some were different, and new ones existed after it.

I honestly have no idea if this is already well known or not as far as Cosmere-ology goes but it was fun, and he was basically the nicest guy ever.

[Meg]

There was an interesting thread about that topic not so long ago . 

 

I may add a -- hopefully not previous answered -- question: Tanavast was Honor's *physical embodiment* as Rayse is Odium's? So "killing Honor" means that (Odium made) Rayse kill Tanavast (Honor)? Did the killing of the body the Splintering of Honor or had Odium to make further efforts to Splinter Honor after Honor's body was dead? 

 

Is this understandable?

 

edit: Hitting the send-button I remembered that I forgot something else. 

 

There's an idea in my brain (I'm quite sure it's not my idea but I've read it somewhere else): Might the death/Splintering of Tanavast/Honor have caused the Day of Recreance? 

Edited April 29, 2013 by Meg

[+HoidIsAwesome he/him]

Was going to create a new thread but is sorta related to this one so here goes:

Honor's body (I forget the true name of the Shard holder). Do we ever find out what happened to it? I mean in Mist born we see atis, vins and letas' bodies when they die. What happened to Honor's?

[Isomere]

A couple questions:

Q: Are we certain he was alive during the Recreance? The arguments I'm hearing have convinced me, but I can't find proof right now. In the last chapter you can interpret it to mean he was alive for the Recreance, but it is vague.

"Most of what I show you are scenes I have seen directly," the figure said. "but some, such as this one, are born out of my fears. If I fear it, then you should too."

 

Q: Are we certain the Shard Shattering on Roshar and the the death of Tanavast are the same moment in time? I see several ways to make them not match up. 

 

1) Shattering a shard might not always kill the holder

2) Tanavast abandoned the shard when he saw Odium coming (as he was wetting himself)

3) Tanavast was not the original Holder of Honor

 

There are all three very unlikely. I have always assumed they both happened at the same time, but there isn't any substantial evidence to push me either way.

[Meg]

Was going to create a new thread but is sorta related to this one so here goes:

Honor's body (I forget the true name of the Shard holder). Do we ever find out what happened to it? I mean in Mist born we see atis, vins and letas' bodies when they die. What happened to Honor's?

 

 

It's Tanavast and I didn't think about what happened to his body. 

 

As for Mistborn: We saw this bodies because "we" (the readers) witnessed their deaths so we "saw" their bodies but apparently Tanavast died a few years before The Way of Kings.  

[+HoidIsAwesome he/him]

It's Tanavast and I didn't think about what happened to his body.

As for Mistborn: We saw this bodies because "we" (the readers) witnessed their deaths so we "saw" their bodies but apparently Tanavast died a few years before The Way of Kings.

Yes I guessed that. I'm just wondering if anyone in the past DID find the body and if so what they did with it. I mean - does it still hold some power or is it just an ordinary body?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Yes I guessed that. I'm just wondering if anyone in the past DID find the body and if so what they did with it. I mean - does it still hold some power or is it just an ordinary body?

Probably not ordinary, if ati and leras' corpses were any indicator.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-5

• Did Sazed do anything with the bodies of Ati and Leras after he ascended?

  No, I'm afraid not. Those might have been useful to have around, though.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[+HoidIsAwesome he/him]

Probably not ordinary, if ati and leras' corpses were any indicator.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-5

In any case there's some interesting possibilities there IMO.

[Dros]

We know Honorspren were around when Nohadon was alive.  Were Honorspren created after Honor was splintered or already out there? 

[Senor Feesh]

We know Honorspren were around when Nohadon was alive.  Were Honorspren created after Honor was splintered or already out there? 

 

Some existed prior to the Splintering. Since the event, some new ones have come into being, and some older ones changed. Details unknown.

[Vortaan he/him]

I'd wager that Honor died around either the Recreance or the Hieorcracy. Just a gut feeling. Actually, here's an interesting question that would probably answer it. When did the periods of constant warfare start in Roshar? I'll bet that coincides nicely with the death of Tanavast, and I'll also bet that it coincides nicely with the Sunmaker.

[The Count he/him]

We know Honorspren were around when Nohadon was alive.  Were Honorspren created after Honor was splintered or already out there? 

 

 

Some existed prior to the Splintering. Since the event, some new ones have come into being, and some older ones changed. Details unknown.

 

We know that there are more Spren since Honor died, but is there confirmation that there are more Honorspren?

 

I have doubts about that.

[Meg]

We know Honorspren were around when Nohadon was alive.  Were Honorspren created after Honor was splintered or already out there? 

 

Some existed prior to the Splintering. Since the event, some new ones have come into being, and some older ones changed. Details unknown.

 

 

We know that there are more Spren since Honor died, but is there confirmation that there are more Honorspren?

 

I have doubts about that.

 

 

I'm fairly sure BS's statement wasn't only about Honorspren, but I can't find the exact quote, only another thread where this is mentioned: 

 

Recently Brandon confirmed that spren already existed on Roshar before Honor's shattering, but after he was shattered some were different, and some new ones were created.

 

 

 

Vortaan, on 30 Apr 2013 - 05:32, said:

I'd wager that Honor died around either the Recreance or the Hieorcracy. Just a gut feeling. Actually, here's an interesting question that would probably answer it. When did the periods of constant warfare start in Roshar? I'll bet that coincides nicely with the death of Tanavast, and I'll also bet that it coincides nicely with the Sunmaker.

 

 

If I understand the term "constant warfare" right this is a very, very, very old problem on Roshar. 

 

TWoK Chapter 60 Dalinar's vision with Nohadon:

 

“What happened here?” Dalinar asked despite himself. “It’s terrible!”

“I ask myself this same thing. How could we let this occur? The Desolations are well named. I’ve heard initial counts. Eleven years of war, and nine out of ten people I once ruled are dead. Do we even have kingdoms to lead any longer? Sur is gone, I’m sure of it. Tarma, Eiliz, they won’t likely survive. Too many of their people have fallen.”

Dalinar had never heard of those places.

The man made a fist, pounding it softly against the railing. Burning stations had been set up in the distance; they had begun cremating the corpses. “The others want to blame Alakavish. And true, if he hadn’t brought us to war before the Desolation, we might not have been broken this badly. But Alakavish was a symptom of a greater disease. When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again? A world torn by war and squabbling? If we continue as we have, then perhaps we deserve to lose.”

 

(emphasizes mine)

 

 

If this is a hint on "constant warfare" and if the beginning of "constant warfare" is a hint for Honor's death, I fear he died very long ago. The nations Nohadon mentions are not known so I think he lived prior to the existence of the Silver Kingdoms. 

 

Dalinar is sure that this man was Nohadon, the author of that in-world-book "Way of Kings" and that he may have founded the Knights Radiant or at least that "Way of Kings" became kind of a guide for the KR. 

 

A theory of mine as a side note: My gut feeling says that the formation of the ten Silver Kingdoms was concurrently to the foundation of the ten Orders of the KR and that each of the Silver Kingdoms was subservient for/became home of one of the ten Orders of the KR with Urithiru as a center for all. * (see edit below)

 

 

But back to when Honor died: 

 

My gut feeling says, this happened far later (my bet is on the Day of Recreance). 

 

I'm fairly sure that the Hierocracy was a "consequence" of the Day of Recreance and therefore, sorry Vortaan , I'm sure that the Sunmaker and the War of Loss weren't concerned with Honor's death in any way. 

 

 

 

Edit: 

* Ooops, I forgot that Nohadon claimed he went from "Abamar to Urithiru". But I think that don't necessarily contradicts my idea because Urithiru could have already existed and had become the center of the KR and the Silver Kingdoms after Nohadon's live. 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2013 by Meg

[The Count he/him]

I'm fairly sure BS's statement wasn't only about Honorspren, but I can't find the exact quote, only another thread where this is mentioned: 

 

That was the quote I was thinking of...

 

To me this reads that there are more types of (for want of a better word) 'mundane' spren following the splintering but not more Honorspren (created by honor before his splintering).

 

I guess it is all in the interpretation and th quote is too vague to say for sure...

[Dros]

It just seems the Nahel Bond works a lot like the relationship between a Shard and its holder. Syl has gained more and more cognitive abilities the longer she interacted with Kaladin. So a splintered Honor would probably create things like Honorspren. However, it's my understanding that Shards can "grant" splinters to the people of a world  while still whole (Preservation?) and if so, it means Honor didn't have to be splintered by Odium to create Honorspren. So, as a  counterargument against my own thoughts, Honor may have been weakened by granting Honorspren splinters to the people of Roshar and that's how Odium overcame him.

 

I really thought Brandon said the splintering of Honor was not the reason for the Recreance though.  

[Meg]

I really thought Brandon said the splintering of Honor was not the reason for the Recreance though.  

 

 

 

As for the spren-question I can't find a quote for this, too. The only one I could find that has a relation is this: 

 

 

Question about timelines—Was Honor splintered BEFORE or AFTER the day of recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I'm going to RAFO that for now.

 

source

 

 

Perhaps somebody has more luck in finding something? 

[hoser he/him]

We know Honorspren were around when Nohadon was alive.  Were Honorspren created after Honor was splintered or already out there? 

 

 

As for the spren-question I can't find a quote for this, too. The only one I could find that has a relation is this: 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps somebody has more luck in finding something? 

Here's a secondhand quote from Zas, but Zas being the quotemaster, I don't need to look further:

 

QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

This is from the Theory:the Recreance thread. 

 

If you accept that the Radiants didn't exist at the time portrayed in the Dalinar-Nohadon vision and the prelude shows that the Radiants existed at the time of the Herald abandonment, then the Almighty was around while Nohadon was alive and at least some Honorspren existed. 

 

This is the only quote relating to the Recreance trigger that I remember and it has to do with the heralds, not Honor shattering.

[The Count he/him]

If you accept that the Radiants didn't exist at the time portrayed in the Dalinar-Nohadon vision and the prelude shows that the Radiants existed at the time of the Herald abandonment, then the Almighty was around while Nohadon was alive and at least some Honorspren existed. 

 

This is the only quote relating to the Recreance trigger that I remember and it has to do with the heralds, not Honor shattering.

 

I think this is a good point, I forgot the quote about Honor being around during the prelude...

 

For me I think Honor was splintered after the day of recreance and before the Heirocracy.

 

I like the argument that the visions are based on actual events. In the everstorm vision, Tanavast specifically says that this is only a possible future, implying that what came before was actual fact. Ergo, Honor watched the day of recreance happening.

 

Maybe he was decapacitated in someway before that so could not influence events... maybe the death / splintering took a long time... I don't know.

 

But I feel that, if Honor had been around during the time of the Heirocracy and the Sunmaker, there would have been a vision about it since it is a pivotal event.

 

Speculating further, I also like the theory (can't remember who said it first) that the Ardents were getting the same visions as Dalinar during the time of the Heirocracy, which led to them trying to seize power. This would mean that Honor had been splintered / killed before then. No evidence for this though really.

 

The main question I have is, Why have there been no surgebinders since the day of recreance?

 

Szeth and Kaladin seem to be the first in a very long time. What changed? Gavilars actions? Szeths actions? Something else?

Edited May 1, 2013 by MadRand