ecohansen Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 One more speculative thread on a wonderful midweek day off work: So, in this thread ( http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7012-elhokar-becomes-a-radiant/) there was a fair degree of disagreement over whether or not the symbolheads that Elhokar sees are in fact Cryptics, and whether, if they are, that means that he is a Lightweaver. The strongest competing theories seem to be that ( A ) he is in fact a Willshaper, or ( B ) Cryptics merely watch all important people, and Elhokar can see his watchers for some as-yet-unclear reason that doesn't require him to be a proto-radiant. I agree that the questions are far from settled, but to me, Elhokar's defining trait of manufacturing misleading scenarios (cutting the saddle-girth and lying about it) in order to reveal truths (that he is being watched) screams "lightweaver". If, for the sake of this thread, we temporarily assume that Elhokar is a Lightweaver, there is one major unresolved element of the lightweaver profile that he needs to meet: he needs to have a representational art to channel his weaving with. We've not seen any particularly notable hints about what that art might be, but why should we let that stop us from speculating? Since he is a male Alethi, he would have been strongly discouraged from painting or writing. I don't remember if there is definitive word on whether or not sculpture is a feminine art, but we can probably assume that it is (I thought I remembered a female sculpting competition in one of the feast scenes in WoR, but I can't seem to find it now). The fact that Elhokar physically manipulated the saddle-girth in order to manufacture his lie might suggest that he is a thwarted sculptor, but that is a bit tenuous. Another option, since he verbally conveys his fabrications, is that he is an oral storyteller. However, he doesn't seem to be any more gifted in this department than Shallan is, and Shallan has a separate art to channel her weaving. So how about it? Are there any hints I'm missing that might reveal which art Elhokar uses? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Alcohol. He mixes his drinks very uniquely and consumes them in interesting ways. Edited July 1, 2015 by hoser 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 If, for the sake of this thread, we temporarily assume that Elhokar is a Lightweaver, there is one major unresolved element of the lightweaver profile that he needs to meet: he needs to have a representational art to channel his weaving with. Actually, I think it's been strongly implied that this isn't necessary. Pattern tells Shallan (I'm paraphrasing rather than finding the quote) something like: "It shouldn't matter, but for some reason it does to you." She shouldn't need her art to focus her lightweaving, but something, probably those pesky lies she's told herself until she believes them to be true, is holding her back and requiring that for now. jW 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Not that I know, but on the other side he seems to be able to create "true lies". For exemple, he faked an assassination atempt to make Dalinar look into real threats to his life. He also seems to have dificulty admiting truths about himself. The spren going away after Kaladin appeared could mean he pulled one of them into the physical realm and bonded it as he started to admit his imcompetence. Of course, there is also evidence that the spren he used to see are unmade, particulary by comparing him in WoK, when he looks to Dalinar(a proto radiant) with hateful eyes for one moment, to Lin Davar when he does the same with Shallan after Helaran reveals his shardblade and leaves. In both cases there seems to be a battle between the dark influence and the warding power of the Radiant family member, except with Elhokar the good side won. Edited July 1, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 The sad truth is we have not seen Elhokar exhibit any artistic qualities. He rather seems a temperamental man with serious trust issues sprouting for his irrational fear of assassins which lead him to either be too trustful in his advisers or to ignore them completely. He does not seem to have the capacity to make up his own mind via a rational thought process so he alternates in between forcing his way or letting his uncle take all the place. Like most Kohlin men, it seemed, he is rather emotional, though he seems to be lacking Adolin's natural kindness and Dalinar's respect for other's life. As a result, he does not emphasizes with the pain/struggles of those below him which leads him to unjustly imprison Kaladin for making him appear like a fool. He seems rather focus on maintaining the impression he is a good king and rages mad when people make him look bad. He was raised in an authoritative family, an approach that did not seem to work well for him. I do think he genuinely want to be a good king and is, deep down, a good man, but I also think he is seriously misguided. His desire to prove himself is so strong I have long since identify him as a good candidate to fall prey to evil hands. He seems ready to endorse any possible philosophy as long as it helps him strengthen the impression he is a strong man. He orchestrated the entire chasmfiend hunt just so he could appear more capable of leadership towards the Highprinces, he foolishly caused the demise of 50 good soldier by pushing forward in what had become a dangerous hunt and lastly he expressed little regard towards their death, thus emphasizing my personal impression he is lacking the good-heartiness we have seen in Dalinar/Adolin. Is he artistic? I can't say based on the clues we have. Navani and Jasnah are both non-artistic inclined individuals to the point they regard art badly. Jasnah herself states she has little respect for the art of drawing, a statement we later learn seems to have sprouted from her own lack of talent in the matter. Navani thinks badly of former Brightness Kohlin, an impression which may have sprouted from strong artistic inclinations from the later which the former would have frown on. I will underline this last sentence is pure speculation on my part and is based on very little evidence, but I see it as likely. We have no indications if Galivar had any artistic inclination, but we do know neither Dalinar nor Renarin seemed to have them. Of all Kohlins, the only to have shown a streak of it is Adolin, but it seemed to have come from his mother's side of the family. Thus, artistic talent does not seem to run in neither the Kohlin nor Navani's family. So to answer the question, I think it doubtful Elhokar would have much artistic inclination, but I could be wrong about it. We have not seen enough of him to make a judgment call on the matter, but based on what we do know, I am inclined to say no. Is he Lightweaver potential based on the fact he orchestrated an assassination attempt to increase the value of his paranoia? I do not know if this is enough to attract a Cryptic: Shallan seemed to have created much more powerful lies than that. I have always found Elhokar somewhat lacking in terms of Radiant potential. If it weren't for the symbol heads in the mirror, nobody would have identify him as a potential proto-Radiant... I am thus of the school whatever it is he is seeing are not there for the Nahel bond or perhaps they were initially, but it failed. I would be very surprised to see Elhokar become a Radiant. I have no idea what Brandon has in store for him, but it would make sense, for me, to play with his weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecohansen Posted July 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 Jondesu, you are so right. I felt fully confident, but I was misremembering the following quote: WoR ch.21 These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order's general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished. Many, of course, is not all. Apologies for my idiocy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 I would have to assume that lightweavers became bonded indiscriminately as long as the whole truth-lies thing is met and the cryptic wants to stay after being attracted. They probably can't all be of the arts, as hansen brings up, but considering their powers and the nature of the order there'd be no shortage of artists in the Order of Lightweavers if culture, religion, and other such factors allowed them to pursue that field. It's interesting how they're a pretty abstract group of people, when cryptics and abstract seem to mix so poorly. Pattern is hilariously bad at expressions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) Cryptics actualy are very good at abstractions, as seem by their natural mastery over language and patterns. They are bad at non-literal interpretations of abstractions. Edited July 2, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted July 2, 2015 Report Share Posted July 2, 2015 Pattern seems to think language to be a bit too un-abstract and pattern-oriented for humanity to wrap their heads around at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Honor Spren Posted July 3, 2015 Report Share Posted July 3, 2015 I was thinking that maybe the cryptics were considering him? But they decided he wasn't what they were looking for. There is also the fact that we don't know much about Elhokar's personal life before, or even during, the vengeance pact. There could have been something that broke him so that he could be a Radiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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