kroen Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Odium's plan is to be the only shard remaining, right? well then unless he drops the all "don't take the shards you kill" act he stands 0% chance to defeat Harmony. A shard shouldn't be stupid regardless of intent, right? so why then does Odium even conceive a plan he himself know he can't accomploish? unless he does plan to take some shards at some point, which is where the theory comes in. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) We don't know ebough about shard to shard combat to know if he couldn't force Sazed to invest to much of his power into the world and become weaker, or if there are other ways to defeat a shard besides raw power. The only exemple of on-screen shard combat is in mistborn, but Ruin and Preservation are polar opposites in intent, wich may change how they interact. Plus, Leras was able to trap part of Ati's power in the Atium while he was the weakest of them to force him to become his equal in power, even though he lost his mind in the process, so simply overpowering the oponent isn't the only trick in a shard's arsenal, not by a faint breeze or a stormwind. Edited June 15, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Odium's beat other Shards 2 on 1 (both Devotion and Dominion, Honor and Cultivation ended up with Honor dead). I doubt Harmony is impossible for Odium to kill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus52980 Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 I remember a Brandon quote saying something to the effect of "Harmony has more raw power, but Odium is more of a warrior/fighter, so it would be a close fight". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Harmony also has conflicting and non-intervening Intents to deal with so he'd have a hard time confronting Odium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Having more raw power isn't the only way of fighting. I suspect that Ruin alone was actually a greater threat than Harmony is, because Ruin was capable of destroying while Harmony is paralyzed in a lot of ways by the conflicting Intents inside of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Maybe even Preservation alone may have been able to contain him, since it is the only shard we have seen that could forcibly isolate part of a shard power from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowspren Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 In AoL, Wax is talking to Harmony and he basically says "you're Harmony, aren't you supposed to balance things?" and Harmony replies "Yes, I sent you" No doubt raw power isn't the only way to kill another shard, in this sense I don't think Harmony will want to fight Odium directly I think that he's going to use a 'champion' of sorts to fight Odium. As we've seen, Preservation uses everyone else to finally kill Ruin, so I think that Harmony will act similarly, investing more into the people to somehow kill Odium... Then again, Brandon won't play the same card twice... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 the way shards have been scheming with mortals, i definitely think there are other ways to bring them down. they would not take such care in those schemes if they could not be harmed by them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kroen Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Didn't Brandon said somewhere that Odium knows he can't beat Harmony? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Didn't Brandon said somewhere that Odium knows he can't beat Harmony? I saw one that said Odium is worried/angry that 2 of the Shards joined, but it was pretty vague on the why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 Having more raw power isn't the only way of fighting. I suspect that Ruin alone was actually a greater threat than Harmony is, because Ruin was capable of destroying while Harmony is paralyzed in a lot of ways by the conflicting Intents inside of him. Wouldn't it be possible that the act of Harmony destroying Odium is an act in accordance with both intents? Buy destroying Odium, Ruin's intent would be fulfilled via destruction. At the same time Harmony would be preseverving the Cosmere by removing the threat to it that is Odium. I think the main issue for Harmony would be he would need to acknowledge that Odium is a large enough threat to the Cosmere that his intervention would be needed in order for things to be Preserved. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus52980 Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 But this is the same debate that Kaladin has with his father isn't it? Can you "protect" something by killing? Did preservation go out of its way to "kill" ruin, or did it just want to defeat him? Seems to me that Vin was the one who chose to do the killing, and maybe against the "urging" of preservation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 But this is the same debate that Kaladin has with his father isn't it? Can you "protect" something by killing? Did preservation go out of its way to "kill" ruin, or did it just want to defeat him? Seems to me that Vin was the one who chose to do the killing, and maybe against the "urging" of preservation That makes sense, but I suppose this actually supports my statement. If Sazed/Harmony decided his intervention was nessary for the Preservation of the Cosmere then he propobably could fight Odium in earnest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted June 19, 2015 Report Share Posted June 19, 2015 That makes sense, but I suppose this actually supports my statement. If Sazed/Harmony decided his intervention was nessary for the Preservation of the Cosmere then he propobably could fight Odium in earnest. I think it's more likely to be tied to Scadrial than the Cosmere. Similarly, i think it would relate more to harmony or balance, not preservation, because you have to consider ruin as well. That means that if things get too bad, he will act. But, also, if they are too good (because ruin will allow building to be more effective at destroying, but its cost will come due, likely at the point most likely to bring about the most destruction.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) I think it's more likely to be tied to Scadrial than the Cosmere. Similarly, i think it would relate more to harmony or balance, not preservation, because you have to consider ruin as well. That means that if things get too bad, he will act. But, also, if they are too good (because ruin will allow building to be more effective at destroying, but its cost will come due, likely at the point most likely to bring about the most destruction.) Harmony, by definition does not imply balance, simply agreement. Yet in most of my reading here (I've been a lurker for quite a while) people seem to equate Sazed's/Harmony's nature to balance.This seems to me a clever misdirection by Brandon as he has not (to my knowledge) disuaded the notion. Thank you Kaellok, I have been wrestling with this idea for a while but your post was actually the one that made it click in my head clearly. I doubt that Sazed/Harmony would intervene if things got too bad or too good. After more thought, it seems to me that his intervention would be triggered by Odium disrupting his ability to create and destroy. Edited June 23, 2015 by Iron Eyes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted June 22, 2015 Report Share Posted June 22, 2015 Harmony, by definition does not imply balance, simply agreement. Yet in most of my reading here (I've been a lurker for quite a while) people seem to equate Sazed's/Harmony's nature to balance.This seems to me a clever misdirection by Brandon as he has not (to my knowledge) disuaded the notion. Thank you Kaellok, I have been wrestling with this idea for a while but your post was actually the one that made it click in my head clearly. I doubt that Sazed/Harmony would intervene if things got two bad or two good. After more thought, it seems to me that his intervention would be triggered by Odium disrupting his ability to create and destroy. Good clarification on Harmony. I imagine a lot of us kinda read that and think of some sort of state of Zen or Nirvana, like Ying-Yang... but that does not have to be the case. I also think it's good to note that when a Shard becomes "Invested" (ha) in a planet, it makes it harder for that Shard to leave. I imagine Harmony is heavily invested on Scadrial, so a conflict with Odium would have to be initiated by Odium's arrival. And, I suspect, Odium was forced to Invest in the Greater Roshar system, which traps him in that system until he manages to sufficiently destroy Roshar. This might also explain the discrepancy between Sel being somewhat advanced while Roshar is in constant danger of being annihilated. This leads us to a couple possible outcomes: 1) Odium, being tied to Roshar, will fail because Roshar will continue to be preserved. This will prevent Odium from escaping to carry out his plan (unless he finds a loophole) 2) Roshar will be destroyed by the end of Stormlight Archive. (or shortly after) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 WoB has clarified that the Shard we know as "Harmony" does, in fact, mean a balance between opposing forces and an inability to act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted June 23, 2015 Report Share Posted June 23, 2015 WoB has clarified that the Shard we know as "Harmony" does, in fact, mean a balance between opposing forces and an inability to act. Difficulty acting, yes, but the point is that balance may not be the right thought, and if he can find a purpose/action that aligns with the purposes of both Preservation and Ruin, he should be able to act with impressive power. jW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 WoB has clarified that the Shard we know as "Harmony" does, in fact, mean a balance between opposing forces and an inability to act. I disagree with your assessment here. Brandon states that it is hard to act due to Preservation's and Ruin's intents being diametrically opposite. This doesn't imply balance, just that he would require an solution that satisfies two polar opposite intentions which is obviously not easily fulfilled. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Invictus Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Hi, all! New member, glad to meet you all! Keep in mind my understanding of the Cosmere is restricted to the three novels and one short story I've read, plus plundering the Coppermind, so please excuse me if I make an error in reasoning, but... Shards and those who hold them are basically gods, yes? This doesn't mean they all have the same powers. Each Shardworld has a very different Investiture, yes? (Yes, I know it all comes from the same ultimate source---Adonalsium!---but each Investiture manifests in very different ways.) Therefore, wouldn't the abilities personally possessed by each Shard therefore also be very different from every other Shard? Take the Greek gods, for instance. Ares couldn't help you in matters of love, just like Aphrodite couldn't do anything for you in martial matters. Therefore, Odium might be considerably more directly destructive than other Shards. Maybe Harmony is, not less powerful, but less able to overtly manifest the way Odium can? What with Intent shaping each Shard/Investiture? Or am I completely wrong? I apologize if this has already been solved, elsewhere. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renarin_Kholin Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 Sorry, there is one thing where i disagree with some of you guys... I don't think we should be seeing Harmony as just Preservation + Ruin... I kinda imagine it in the same way as two gems fusing in SU, where the new being does share characteristics of both individuals, but in the end would act more based on its new intent. If or when Odium does attack Scandrial, I don't imagine Sazed overtly destroying Rayse nor trying to preserve Scandrial, as his intent is neither longer Preservation nor Ruin but a smashing of the two. If Odium does ever arrive at Scandrial I would see Harmony trying to stop Odium by getting a perfect "harmony" against his power, and thus creating a stalemate between two forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted June 28, 2015 Report Share Posted June 28, 2015 WoB has flatly stated that Harmony actually does have the two opposing Intents, which argues against the idea that he no longer feels either, but just an urge to seek harmony. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renarin_Kholin Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Hmm... guess i need to go reread all those. thanks though for the correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Some of the WoB is obscure and confusing and worse, contradictory. I should also mention that (ironically, per WoB) any WoB is mutable. So until it's flat-out stated in-universe, what we know could prove false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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