Mestiv he/him Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 The kalam cosmological argument is as follows: Whatever begins to exist has a cause; The universe began to exist; Therefore: The universe has a cause. The issue being that this does not demonstrate that the "cause" is any sort of God that people recognize as such (essentially an intelligent force) I have a serious problem with this thing. The first sentence "Whatever begins to exist has a cause" - sound like some kind of universal rule true to everything. Who set this rule? Are there any ways to prove it? Sure, humans like to think that everything has a cause. However, I don't think that it will always hold true when we consider that at the very beginning right after the Big Bang, the laws of physics known to us didn't work yet due to, as wikipedia says: "Extrapolation of the expansion of the universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past. This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity and thus, all the laws of physics." Talking about cause in situation where laws of physics don't work (time is not working as we know it) is pointless in my opinion. And even if there is a cause to the existence of our universe, I agree that it doesn't have to be anything intelligent or even sentient 1
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 I posted way back when but that was a load of waffle. I don't follow any particular belief system but I do believe in concepts and ideals. That's why I like Brandon's work so much; so much to muse over and consider philosophically.
Yata he/him Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) I define myself as an Atheist. But to be honest the stricty semantic of Atheist don't apply to my though..therefore I suppose to be in the between from Atheist and Agnostic (but very near to the atheist). I have need of many words to describe better my PoV and as all the Forum knows I began to make error in English when I try to explain long concept...therefore I will avoid you any kind of suffering Edited March 31, 2016 by Yata
IndigoAjah he/him Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 I have a serious problem with this thing. The first sentence "Whatever begins to exist has a cause" - sound like some kind of universal rule true to everything. Who set this rule? Are there any ways to prove it? Sure, humans like to think that everything has a cause. However, I don't think that it will always hold true when we consider that at the very beginning right after the Big Bang, the laws of physics known to us didn't work yet due to, as wikipedia says: "Extrapolation of the expansion of the universe backwards in time using general relativity yields an infinite density and temperature at a finite time in the past. This singularity signals the breakdown of general relativity and thus, all the laws of physics." Talking about cause in situation where laws of physics don't work (time is not working as we know it) is pointless in my opinion. And even if there is a cause to the existence of our universe, I agree that it doesn't have to be anything intelligent or even sentient Yeah the whole argument works on the fallacy that everything follows human logic and the pattern of cause-effect that we have been programmed to perceive and would never be able to perceive if things did not follow this pattern.
Kaymyth she/her Posted March 31, 2016 Posted March 31, 2016 I define myself as an Atheist. But to be honest the stricty semantic of Atheist don't apply to my though..therefore I suppose to be in the between from Atheist and Agnostic (but very near to the atheist). I have need of many words to describe better my PoV and as all the Forum knows I began to make error in English when I try to explain long concept...therefore I will avoid you any kind of suffering But I've seen your English improve by leaps and bounds since you joined. Just keep working at it! 2
Mistrunner Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 General Conference! Unfortunately, our internet keeps cutting out. Thanks, Satan.
Clockwork he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 General Conference! Missed the first hour because I thought it was next week.
Kaymyth she/her Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) What's a General Conference? I think it's a big LDS conference. The UUA has something similar every year, called General Assembly, that bounces from city to city, and is stuffed full of seminars and committees and things. I think the main difference is that our GA is full of Unitarian Universalists, while the GC that other folks are talking about is full of Mormons. Edited April 2, 2016 by Kaymyth
Orlion Blight he/him Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) I think it's a big LDS conference. The UUA has something similar every year, called General Assembly, that bounces from city to city, and is stuffed full of seminars and committees and things. I think the main difference is that our GA is full of Unitarian Universalists, while the GC that other folks are talking about is full of Mormons. The other difference is that General Conference is just speeches and some music... It's not very interactive like the General Assembly sounds. Edited April 2, 2016 by Orlion Determined
Kaymyth she/her Posted April 2, 2016 Posted April 2, 2016 The other difference is that General Conference is just speeches and some music... It's not very interactive like the General Assembly sounds. Yeah....that's the thing about UU's. We can't decide ANYTHING without creating a committee and voting on it. Big things that involve the entire Unitarian Universalist Association take, like, three years to implement because everybody has to agree. My congregation takes voting to an extreme, and we can't pass any business without Consensus. Basically, everyone present at the meeting has to agree to the thing in order for the thing to happen.
Mistrunner Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 What's a General Conference?Pretty much what the others were saying. It's a biannual meeting held in Salt Lake City that's broadcast to churches throughout the world (and live on the internet!) where the prophet, apostles, and other church leaders give talks on things that are of importance these days. For example, this conference so far seems to be focusing a lot on the family. There's also a lot of hymns sung, of course. It's awesome. ...except when the internet cuts out.
The Honor Spren she/her Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Pretty much what the others were saying. It's a biannual meeting held in Salt Lake City that's broadcast to churches throughout the world (and live on the internet!) where the prophet, apostles, and other church leaders give talks on things that are of importance these days. For example, this conference so far seems to be focusing a lot on the family. There's also a lot of hymns sung, of course. It's awesome. ...except when the internet cuts out. I couldn't have said it better myself, me!
Mistrunner Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 I couldn't have said it better myself, me!Why hello, Honor Spren! Don't we look lovely today! Also, I've decided something. We're not only part of the forum quintuplet, we're also the forum immature younger sisters. *highfives other Honor Spren*
The Honor Spren she/her Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Why hello, Honor Spren! Don't we look lovely today! Also, I've decided something. We're not only part of the forum quintuplet, we're also the forum immature younger sisters. *highfives other Honor Spren* I know! I love what we've done with our dress! *highfives back* 1
Kaymyth she/her Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Girls! April Fool's Day was yesterday! (ow, my brain) 2
Mistrunner Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Girls! April Fool's Day was yesterday! (ow, my brain) Yes, Mother. *looks suitably ashamed* 2
Voidus Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Yes, Mother. *looks suitably ashamed* Still having the same dp is possibly even more confusing. 1
little wilson she/her Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 I was at the first session of General Conference yesterday. Listened to the second on my phone since I don't have cable. Two comments about both sessions. One, the anti-Mormons who gather outside the Conference Center really need to work on their rhetoric. One guy had a sign that said "My name is Satan and these preachers are my missionaries" and I'll be honest: I'm confused. Is he saying that *he* is Satan, or that the prophet is Satan? Because then while we were crossing the street, he yelled out "I am Satan," so I feel like he's saying that he's Satan and that just doesn't make any sense if he's trying to bash the church. But let's say that he's saying that the prophet is Satan. Is he trying to save the LDS folks' souls? Does he think he can do that if he insults us by calling us Satan-worshippers? And if he's not trying to save our souls, why is he wasting 6+ hours of his life standing on a sidewalk in Salt Lake City yelling "I am Satan"? The second comment is about the nay-sayers in the second session. The ones who yell out "opposed" during the sustaining votes for the prophet and other apostles. Why are they even at conference? What's the point? If I didn't believe, I sure as heck wouldn't go just to twiddle my thumbs for the hour and a half after yelling out opposed. Again, that seems like a massive waste of time for something that nets you literally nothing. I guess I value my time and don't see the point of spending it on something I don't like or believe in. Nor do I see the point of interfering with others' beliefs and telling them how wrong they are. That's not a way to make or keep friends. Nor is it a way to actually have a reasonable discussion with other rational human beings who have differing opinions to yours... 5
+Slowswift Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 The second comment is about the nay-sayers in the second session. The ones who yell out "opposed" during the sustaining votes for the prophet and other apostles. Why are they even at conference? What's the point? If I didn't believe, I sure as heck wouldn't go just to twiddle my thumbs for the hour and a half after yelling out opposed. Again, that seems like a massive waste of time for something that nets you literally nothing. Yes. It's a sustaining vote, not an election. Not to mention their blatant disregard for "by the same sign". 1
Mistrunner Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 One, the anti-Mormons who gather outside the Conference Center really need to work on their rhetoric. One guy had a sign that said "My name is Satan and these preachers are my missionaries" and I'll be honest: I'm confused. Is he saying that *he* is Satan, or that the prophet is Satan? Because then while we were crossing the street, he yelled out "I am Satan," so I feel like he's saying that he's Satan and that just doesn't make any sense if he's trying to bash the church. But let's say that he's saying that the prophet is Satan. Is he trying to save the LDS folks' souls? Does he think he can do that if he insults us by calling us Satan-worshippers? And if he's not trying to save our souls, why is he wasting 6+ hours of his life standing on a sidewalk in Salt Lake City yelling "I am Satan"? The second comment is about the nay-sayers in the second session. The ones who yell out "opposed" during the sustaining votes for the prophet and other apostles. Why are they even at conference? What's the point? If I didn't believe, I sure as heck wouldn't go just to twiddle my thumbs for the hour and a half after yelling out opposed. Again, that seems like a massive waste of time for something that nets you literally nothing. I guess I value my time and don't see the point of spending it on something I don't like or believe in. Nor do I see the point of interfering with others' beliefs and telling them how wrong they are. That's not a way to make or keep friends. Nor is it a way to actually have a reasonable discussion with other rational human beings who have differing opinions to yours... Exactly to both of these. I was able to go last year, and those protesters made me so confused. Why are you doing this? What exactly are you protesting? Is it the prophet? The members? The church as a whole? For heavens' sakes, why? What did make me happy, though, was a group of people- I think they were some of the Temple Square missionaries- holding a mormon.org banner and singing hymns. Made my day.
little wilson she/her Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Exactly to both of these. I was able to go last year, and those protesters made me so confused. Why are you doing this? What exactly are you protesting? Is it the prophet? The members? The church as a whole? For heavens' sakes, why? What did make me happy, though, was a group of people- I think they were some of the Temple Square missionaries- holding a mormon.org banner and singing hymns. Made my day. Actually, the singers aren't all Temple Square missionaries. I know this because my stake was supposed to supply the singers for one of the Saturday morning sessions about a year ago, and my sister and I went and were able to go to the afternoon session because of it. I think that's often what it is: members from the area who are asked to sing hymns to drown out the protestors in exchange for tickets. It's pretty cool.
Mistrunner Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 Actually, the singers aren't all Temple Square missionaries. I know this because my stake was supposed to supply the singers for one of the Saturday morning sessions about a year ago, and my sister and I went and were able to go to the afternoon session because of it. I think that's often what it is: members from the area who are asked to sing hymns to drown out the protestors in exchange for tickets. It's pretty cool. Ah, thank you. Good to know.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 3, 2016 Posted April 3, 2016 I'd be interested to learn some more about Mormonism, just for my own curiosity having been educated at school in Hindu/Islam/Judaism/Christianity/Buddhism to a degree, having a Catholic girlfriend and some family and an Anglican upbringing and quite a few friends who are Hindu/Muslim/Jewish but relatively little exposure to Mormons and what they believe (beyond the basic premise of the Book of Mormon and the Saints of America) here in the UK 1
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