SA characters you liked--until they did something you can never forgive them for

[kaellok]

Ah, this thread for me is Shallan. 

 

For those who listened to the Splintercast podcasts, Shallan's reaction and treatment of Renarin at the end of WoR was both shocking and horrifying to me. This is probably a scene that didn't bother too many other people, but Renarin has a very special place in my heart and I'm very protective of him. Considering one of the things that I had originally loved about Shallan was her kindness and empathy -- to the point that I considered her to be a possible good friend or match for Renarin -- seeing the way she reacted to him was... physically painful to me.

 

A character that I thought was kind and understanding looks at my favorite charact and decides he's "creepy and weird." Beyond that, when he starts to show signs of extreme distress from his visions, Shallan treats him like he's an annoying inconvenience. Seeing someone I cared about say "Shut him up. Gag him if you have to." to my favorite character, at a time when he most needs someone to support him? It hurt. A lot.

 

Yeah, I get it, she was under a lot of stress. There was a lot of pressure on her to get this done and Renarin's breakdown was getting in her way, but the things she said and thought about him felt unnecessarily harsh and cruel. I don't know about you, but if someone around me (even someone I didn't really care about) started showing signs of an involuntary reaction, especially screaming in fear and possibly pain... I'd maybe... feel a little bad? Try to help? Be worried about him, even if I couldn't help? I certainly wouldn't ask someone to "gag him!"

 

Though I'm starting to learn how to forgive her, every time I think about it, I just get angry all over again and have to go calm down.

I disagree, but completely understand where you're coming from.  So upvote!

 

I'm just not a very nice, or kind, person (even though I do my best to act that way, just because it's easier and I am, at heart, quite lazy) and so I don't see myself acting much differently than Shallan did in those circumstances.  Definitely not the way nice/kind/good people are typically expected to act, though.

[FeatherWriter]

Yeah, this thing with Shallan isn't something that I tend to press my point on. It's more personal. Sometimes characters do things and you're like "THAT WAS HORRIBLE AND ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS THEM IS WRONG BECAUSE THEY'RE TERRIBLE." I've had some of those and those are some fun discussions.

 

But that's... not the way I feel about what happened. It was a lot more of "I had personally invested a lot of stuff into these two characters and seeing them not getting along hurt me a lot." I still have trouble forgiving Shallan for what happened, but I don't expect that there were many other people who were also upset by her. It's a lot more of a personal issue for me.

[Adamir]

Ah, this thread for me is Shallan. 

 

For those who listened to the Splintercast podcasts, Shallan's reaction and treatment of Renarin at the end of WoR was both shocking and horrifying to me. This is probably a scene that didn't bother too many other people, but Renarin has a very special place in my heart and I'm very protective of him. Considering one of the things that I had originally loved about Shallan was her kindness and empathy -- to the point that I considered her to be a possible good friend or match for Renarin -- seeing the way she reacted to him was... physically painful to me.

 

A character that I thought was kind and understanding looks at my favorite charact and decides he's "creepy and weird." Beyond that, when he starts to show signs of extreme distress from his visions, Shallan treats him like he's an annoying inconvenience. Seeing someone I cared about say "Shut him up. Gag him if you have to." to my favorite character, at a time when he most needs someone to support him? It hurt. A lot.

 

Yeah, I get it, she was under a lot of stress. There was a lot of pressure on her to get this done and Renarin's breakdown was getting in her way, but the things she said and thought about him felt unnecessarily harsh and cruel. I don't know about you, but if someone around me (even someone I didn't really care about) started showing signs of an involuntary reaction, especially screaming in fear and possibly pain... I'd maybe... feel a little bad? Try to help? Be worried about him, even if I couldn't help? I certainly wouldn't ask someone to "gag him!"

 

Though I'm starting to learn how to forgive her, every time I think about it, I just get angry all over again and have to go calm down.

Rust and ruin, you infected me with your Shallarin obsession. I read the fanfiction you put online, your analysis, and was completely convinced that there would be Shallarin. I had to physically put the book down and try to catch my breath at the 'gag him' scene. First, I wanted to kill Adolin for the possibility of Shallolin. Then Kaladin for the possibility of Shalladin. Then Shallan for extinguishing the possibility of Shallarin...

 

via Imgflip Meme Maker

Edited June 23, 2015 by Adamir

[Arondell]

But that's... not the way I feel about what happened. It was a lot more of "I had personally invested a lot of stuff into these two characters and seeing them not getting along hurt me a lot." I still have trouble forgiving Shallan for what happened, but I don't expect that there were many other people who were also upset by her. It's a lot more of a personal issue for me.

 

This is a primary reason why I consciously avoid investing myself in potential relationships.  Particularly between characters that haven't even met.  Though I'll grant that I don't think I have ever seen such a potential relationship get blown away like that. 

[DreamEternal]

Even worse, before they entered the building with the mechanism to activate the oathgate, Renarin said the winds were blowing in the wrong direction and name dropped the Everstorm. Then, Pattern said the stormform Parshendi were creating a storm that would blow in the wrong direction. Really, it wouldn't be too hard to connect the dots Shallan. Actualy, it is probaly better she didn't notice, since knowing Shallan she would think he made a pact with the voidbringers or was cursed by the Old Magic or something, being as impulsive as she is.

Not unforgivable, but did make me lose interest in a potential Shallan/Adolin relationship until further character development on her part. The brothers just care so much about one another.

Edited June 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[EvilNuff]

Yeah, this thing with Shallan isn't something that I tend to press my point on. It's more personal. Sometimes characters do things and you're like "THAT WAS HORRIBLE AND ANYONE WHO SUPPORTS THEM IS WRONG BECAUSE THEY'RE TERRIBLE." I've had some of those and those are some fun discussions.

 

But that's... not the way I feel about what happened. It was a lot more of "I had personally invested a lot of stuff into these two characters and seeing them not getting along hurt me a lot." I still have trouble forgiving Shallan for what happened, but I don't expect that there were many other people who were also upset by her. It's a lot more of a personal issue for me.

 

Try to remove your love of Renarin and look objectively at the characters.  I say this because for me the character I can never forgive is Renarin.  Look at his actions throughout the book objectively without emotion.  

 

1. He took shards from his family that could be better used on others, true warriors.  His father and brother were trying to help him but the right thing to do would have been to refuse them and help his family in another manner.  He is not a warrior and he knows that.

 

2. He never said anything about his reaction to the blade.  Again this is reprehensible and unforgivable!

 

3. Worst of all, and this is the reason that I consider him unforgivable...he entered the duel *knowing* that he could not help or contribute.  He jeopardized his brother and his families shards in a ridiculous manner!  He is supposed to be an intellectual and yet he displays zero signs of intelligence throughout the book.  

 

Honestly, Shallan's reaction to him is well deserved.  If anything her reaction is less negative than it should be.

[Adamir]

 

Try to remove your love of Renarin and look objectively at the characters.  I say this because for me the character I can never forgive is Renarin.  Look at his actions throughout the book objectively without emotion.  

 

1. He took shards from his family that could be better used on others, true warriors.  His father and brother were trying to help him but the right thing to do would have been to refuse them and help his family in another manner.  He is not a warrior and he knows that.

 

2. He never said anything about his reaction to the blade.  Again this is reprehensible and unforgivable!

 

3. Worst of all, and this is the reason that I consider him unforgivable...he entered the duel *knowing* that he could not help or contribute.  He jeopardized his brother and his families shards in a ridiculous manner!  He is supposed to be an intellectual and yet he displays zero signs of intelligence throughout the book.  

 

Honestly, Shallan's reaction to him is well deserved.  If anything her reaction is less negative than it should be.

I would suggest looking at the intention behind the action. He took the Shardblade and Plate because, judging by Amaram and Adolin's reactions when they offered Kaladin the same, refusing it is an insult to the giver.

 

At least he actually tried to help his brother during the duel; I would protest against what you stated on Renarin displaying no intelligence during the duel. He saw what was happening to his brother; it wasn't a duel, it was an execution. He knew the other Shardbearers were actively trying to cripple/kill Adolin. Yes, it was reckless, yes, it may have done more harm than good, but in that situation, without stopping to think, during which time Adolin could have a Shardblade sticking out of his spine, there are only two reactions most people would take.

 

1. Do absolutely nothing, like 99.8% of the spectators. You can come up with your own reasons for it; you would embarrass yourself in front of Lighteyed society, Sadeas offered to bribe you, you could get killed, etc.
2. Actually try to help Adolin.

For what its worth, I am glad Renarin tried to help Adolin. Unlike the entire Lighteyed population of Alethkar, he didn't make excuses for doing nothing to help Adolin. I would say that one scene shows Renarin as he actually is; someone with enough empathy to try to help another human being with no regard for himself. As you said, 'look at his actions throughout the book objectively without emotion'. That completely misses the point of characterization; allow me to give you two examples, Kelsier and Eragon. Look at what they both did.

 

Eragon: Overthrew a tyrannical empire, became one of the most powerful magic users alive, and helped bring a resistance movement to victory.

 

Kelsier: Overthrew a tyrannical empire, became one of the most powerful magic users alive, and helped bring a resistance movement to victory.

 

Now, how about their characterization?

 

Eragon: Blandy McBlandson, the blandest human being to walk the earth since Desmond Miles.

 

Kelsier: Optimistic by necessity, with a boulder-sized chip on his shoulder and conflicting motivations. An ego that could only be contained by starting his own cult, and uncertain whether he is fighting for justice, revenge or fame.

 

Now, by an objective standpoint, Eragon is just as good a character as Kelsier. To conclude my argument, do not judge a character by what they do (except, and note the hypocrisy in these words, except Szeth), but by what they intend. Do you hate Vin for releasing Ruin, or Kelsier for starting a chain of events that led up that moment? If not, then there is no logical reason to hate Renarin.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Adamir

[maxal]

Try to remove your love of Renarin and look objectively at the characters.  I say this because for me the character I can never forgive is Renarin.  Look at his actions throughout the book objectively without emotion.  

 

1. He took shards from his family that could be better used on others, true warriors.  His father and brother were trying to help him but the right thing to do would have been to refuse them and help his family in another manner.  He is not a warrior and he knows that.

 

2. He never said anything about his reaction to the blade.  Again this is reprehensible and unforgivable!

 

3. Worst of all, and this is the reason that I consider him unforgivable...he entered the duel *knowing* that he could not help or contribute.  He jeopardized his brother and his families shards in a ridiculous manner!  He is supposed to be an intellectual and yet he displays zero signs of intelligence throughout the book.  

 

Honestly, Shallan's reaction to him is well deserved.  If anything her reaction is less negative than it should be.

 

Careful, you are walking on dangerous water here... Stating any dislike towards Renarin is perilous as no matter how you phrase it, there will be people to downvote you. However, doing the same for other characters will most likely not result in the same outcome. I could rant on pages as to how unfair that is.

 

I agree with some of what you say and I disagree with others. Renarin has always been a hard character for me as I do not understand him. He also is very different than me, as a person, which makes it harder for me to emphasize with him. 

 

I do not fault Renarin for wanting to try out at being a soldier: he was prevented from doing so. It is reasonable he wants a go at it, to the very least even of all clues point towards him being very poor at it. However, after he gave up on his lessons all together, I believe the noble and helpful thing to do would have been to loan his Shards to a more capable soldier, in the scope of the last battle. Others have done it in the past, though reluctantly, but let's be frank: Renarin hates his shards, I thus do not believe one second he would angst over having someone else use them for him for a short while.

 

I do not fault him for trying to help his brother, even if he may have doomed him by doing so. It was an act of pure love and care. Adolin was being brutally pounded on and was completely unable to fend for himself when he pitched in. No doubt he didn't think it through: his brother needed help, NOW. I wish for Renarin to find a better way to support his brother in the following book, one that does not involve combat.

 

I do fault him for keeping quiet about his "adventures" with his Blade, at the very least to his brother. His desire to remain in secrecy is the on thing that has bothered me the most in WoR, but again, he is so widely different than me, I have a hard time not holding up over him.

 

As for him being intellectual, he sure did not come up this way in WoR. It was more obvious in WoK: I thus reserve my judgment for the later books, but I too am ambivalent over him being labelled as this smart. Other characters have been smarter in book, but again, it may be the lack of Renarin that made me think this way.

Edited June 23, 2015 by maxal

[Adamir]

I do not fault Renarin for wanting to try out at being a soldier: he was prevented from doing so. It is reasonable he wants a go at it, to the very least even of all clues point towards him being very poor at it. However, after he gave up on his lessons all together, I believe the noble and helpful thing to do would have been to loan his Shards to a more capable soldier, in the scope of the last battle. Others have done it in the past, though reluctantly, but let's be frank: Renarin hates his shards, I thus do not believe one second he would angst over having someone else use them for him for a short while.

 

I do fault him for keeping quiet about his "adventures" with his Blade, at the very least to his brother. His desire to remain in secrecy is the on thing that has bothered me the most in WoR, but again, he is so widely different than me, I have a hard time not holding up over him.

Think of the situation with his Blade this way.

 

Renarin: Hey, brother, remember that priceless relic you gifted me with?

 

Adolin: Yes, what about it?

 

Renarin: Well, it seems to be screaming at me. And all logic points to me just being insane, but could you let me give you the ultimate insult and throw away a priceless relic that you risked your life for?

 

I agree with what you said about Renarin trying to be a soldier. I wouldn't say its what he wants to be, but Alethkar is a military based nation. Being a soldier is the highest calling in their religion. Of course there is pressure for the Highprince's son to join the military; it would be shameful to House Kholin to refuse.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Adamir

[Quiver]

You know... the second I read the "weird and creepy" comment, I knew what Feather's reaction was going to be. And I'm not gonna lie, I found it kind of funny...

 

...But man. I agree; her posts really did get me invested into Shallarin as a Thing that was going to happen.

(Coincidentally, that oepened the possibility of Kaladin and Jasnah, which was my immediate hope for Kaladin during Way of Kings).

[DreamEternal]

Kaladin and Jasnah... I never considered it, but that does sound a good fit.

I still prefer my Szeshonai crack ship.

[maxal]

Think of the situation with his Blade this way.

 

Renarin: Hey, brother, remember that priceless relic you gifted me with?

 

Adolin: Yes, what about it?

 

Renarin: Well, it seems to be screaming at me. And all logic points to me just being insane, but could you let me give you the ultimate insult and throw away a priceless relic that you risked your life for?

 

I agree with what you said about Renarin trying to be a soldier. I wouldn't say its what he wants to be, but Alethkar is a military based nation. Being a soldier is the highest calling in their religion. Of course there is pressure for the Highprince's son to join the military; it would be shameful to House Kholin to refuse.

 

Well... For one let's be frank, Adolin did not risk his life for this specific Blade. Salinor was way below his skill level: it was an easy duel. So let's remove that one from the equation.

 

I am not stating he should have thrown the Blade away, but he could have tried to share some of his ordeal with his close family members. More so his father is currently having dreading visions as well and is talking of refunding the Radiants. In this optic, Renarin's silence on the matter is troubling and again, it is so violently against my position on matters it is baffling to read about it. There is nothing I have the hardest time with than people who refuse to share, to talk and chose to deal with their trouble in silence. I can see why he did it, but it is still hard to comprehend why he did not try to launch an idea or two or try to approach his family on the matter, even if reluctantly. 

 

I did not get the feeling anyone was pressuring Renarin to become a soldier: his family advised him to choose the path of Ardentia as it would have allowed him to pursue his true interests. Nobody is putting pressure on him: if they were, he would have been on the training ground, despite his sickness trying to master the sword. Nobody expects Renarin to become a soldier, in fact nobody expects much out of him, which may very well be why he ended up with such a low self-esteem. As to the soldier thing, I believe Renarin put this pressure on himself, seeing how his religion put a higher value on soldier than any other Callings. Being a sickly child, it could also be he spent more time with the Ardents studying growing up and was thus more contaminated with their views on thing, hence is none fading desire to elevate himself to the status of soldier.

 

House Kohlin do not bare any shame on not training Renarin: the kid is sick, an invalid. Nobody expects House Kohlin to give a Plate to their sick child just so he could try at being a soldier. Dalinar does it, because he loves his son and feels for him having to play the second fiddle next to Adolin. He didn't have to do it and nobody would have thought less of him. Not everyone is a soldier either, we have met quite a few high ranked lighteyes who aren't soldiers. Adoin himself did not choose "soldering" as his Calling. Renarin dilemma appears to be a rather internal one, one that seems to have sprouted from a tunnel vision of life: the only way to contribute to his household is by becoming a soldier. Why does young Renarin ended thinking this? I dunno. This is were I am lacking background. I can blame religion, I cannot blame his family and I can also blame his autistic nature which often come with a certain rigidity.

[The Honor Spren]

Kaladin and Jasnah... I never considered it, but that does sound a good fit.

. . . Jasnah is 14 years older than him.

In the subject of Kaladin ships, I don't know. There may or may not be potential in him and Laral, but I don't know. It's just too early on.

About characters people like and don't like, I would hate to be the person who comes in here and says, "I really liked Sadeas. Why did he have to die? "

Edited June 23, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[DreamEternal]

. . . Jasnah is 14 years older than him.

And? It makes a relationship somewhat less likely, but not impossible. Plus, if a man can date a much younger woman and no one bats an eye, why can't the opposite happen?

Of course, I am the guy who jokingly shipped Szeshonai, so I may not be fully serious

Edited June 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[The Honor Spren]

And? It makes a relationship somewhat less likely, but not impossible. Plus, if a man can date a much younger woman and no one bats an eye, why can't the opposite happen?

Of course, I am the guy who jokingly shipped Szeshonai, so I may not be fully serious

Well, I'm just usually not for any ship with a span of 6 years or more between them. Usually.

And puhlease, if you want a ridiculous ship try this one on for size:

Lift/Sadeas (note the irony)

[maxal]

And? It makes a relationship somewhat less likely, but not impossible. Plus, if a man can date a much younger woman and no one bats an eye, why can't the opposite happen?

Of course, I am the guy who jokingly shipped Szeshonai, so I may not be fully serious

 

I once vehemently opposed myself, in a private conversation, to this ship based on the age difference up until I realized the grim truth...

 

I am Jasnah's age.

 

Suppose I do not have neither my husband nor my children, would I engage myself in an intimate relationship with a handsome 20 years old man with an awesome upper body?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe I would. I do not think it would last, but for a fling... I mean... Why not?     

[DreamEternal]

No, you don't get it, Sadeas/Lift and Dalinar/Lift are horrible afronts to Szeshonai! All my mad theories and ships make sense at some level, but are extremely unlikely, for exemple: I suspect Shshsh is the Nightwatcher, and Dalinar's boon was to find a woman he loved more than Navani. See? Makes some sense, yet it is totaly insane. Same with Eshonai, if she manages to restore herself, Szeth, if he gets redeemed. It can make some sense, but it will never happen.

Kaladin/Jasnah is way more likely than the previous two, even if somewhat far from what one would expect.

Edited June 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Adamir]

I fear I have stirred up some animosity between myself and Renarin critics. How about a bonding exercise? Grab your rifles and join me around this barrel of live, defenseless fish, because nothing cheers me up more than criticizing a character everyone hates and no one will defend (Amaram).

[kaellok]

Let's all try to remain constructive with our posts. This is, after all, a topic that can devolve rather swiftly if not treated respectfully.

Just because you disagree with someone's opinions or feelings or thoughts doesn't mean they are wrong (at least in this context).

This is intended to be a safe place to air grievances against fictional characters, after all

[FeatherWriter]

EDIT: Stuff seems to be kinda moving on in the time it took to write this out, so I don't mean to drag up old topics, but I'm gonna leave this here anyway.

 

I love Adamir's responses here, and agree wholeheartedly, but I wanna throw in some of my own meta as well. Because, well, it's Renarin. And if there's one thing I love to do, it's write Renarin defenses. Quotes and all, because if I'm gonna do a thing, I'm gonna do it all the way.

 

There's also the point that... Renarin tried to give his Blade away. The points youmake about how Renarin shouldn't be a shardbearer are brought up in the book, and addressed there. Sometimes by Renarin himself! You say he should have refused it on the grounds he wasn't a warrior, and... he did. Adolin insisted.

 

He [Adolin] handed Salinor's Shardblade toward Renarin. "A present."

"Adolin, are you sure? I mean, I'm not exactly the best with the Plate I already have."

"Might as well have the full set," Adolin said. "Take it."

Renarin seemed hesitant.

"Take it," Adolin said again. 

Reluctantly, Renarin did so.
 

-- WoR Ch. 14

 

Adolin tells him twice to take the Blade, and the first time, Renarin refuses it, for exactly the reasons you did. Dalinar giving his Plate to Renarin was another instance of that. It wasn't just nepotism: Dalinar believed that with Shardplate, Renarin could be a warrior, because the Plate would compensate for his blood weakness. Again, when Dalinar offers, we see Renarin initially refusing (even though he wants the Plate) on the grounds that it should go to someone more capable. Again, Dalinar insists.

 

Dalinar cleared his throat. “Perhaps it is time to again try training you in the sword.”

“My blood weakness—”

“Won’t matter a bit if we get you into a set of Plate and give you a Blade,” Dalinar said. “The armor makes any man strong, and a Shardblade is nearly as light as air itself.”

"Father,” Renarin said flatly, “I’ll never be a Shardbearer. You yourself have said that the Blades and Plate we win from the Parshendi must go to the most skilled warriors.”

“None of the other highprinces give up their spoils to the king,” Dalinar said. “And who would fault me if, for once, I made a gift to my son?”

 

--WoK Ch. 18

 

Every Shardbearer was once a beginner, just as Renarin was. Renarin's not necessarily a bad fighter, he's just inexperienced. It was too risky for him to learn to fight when he didn't have Shardplate protecting him, but with it, he can be a good fighter. Zahel talks about what a good student he is when Kaladin starts expressing disapproval toward the fact that Renarin got the Shards, defending Adolin and Dalinar's choice to make him a Shardbearer:

 

"Oh," Zahel said, "and you assume you'd do better your first time wearing Shardplate, bodyguard?"

"I doubt I'd forget my helmet," Kaladin said, shouldering his spear and stretching. "If Dalinar Kholin intends to force the other highprinces into line, I think he's going to need better Shardbearers than this. He should have picked someone else for that Plate."

"Like you?"

"Storms no," Kaladin said, perhaps to vehemently. "I'm a soldier, Zahel. I want nothing to do with Shadrds. The boy is likeable enough, but I wouldn't trust men to his command -- let alone armor that could keep a much better soldier alive on the field -- and that's it."

"He'll surprise," Zahel replied. "I gave him the whole 'I'm your master and you do what I say' talk, and he actually listened."

"Every soldier hears that on their first day," Kaladin said. "Sometimes they listen. That the boy did is hardly noteworthy."

"If you know how many spoiled ten-year-old lighteyed brats came through here," Zahel said, "you'd think it worth noting. I thought a nineteen-year-old like him would be insufferable. And don't call him a boy, boy."

-- WoR Ch. 18

 

Three moments where someone said "Renarin does not deserve to have Shards." Two of them were Renarin himself, and the other Kaladin. Each time, these points were refuted in canon by characters we trust in terms of both their relationship with Renarin (judging him worthy) and their experience with Shards (knowing who should hold them.)

 

In terms of keeping secrets from his family, both in regards to his screaming Blade and his visions, there's a lot of very good reasons why he wouldn't tell anyone. It's easy to sit here on the other side and blame him saying "He should have told them what was going on! How dare he!" But from Renarin's perspective, the things that are happening to him are really terrifying, and he has a right to be hesitant in revealing. 

 

On the "screaming Shardblade" side, as Adamir said, he doesn't have a good explanation for it other than the fact that he might be going insane. Renarin is autistic, so he already knows that he thinks differently from everyone around him, and the possibility of insanity is a really really scary thing. Think about if that got out: Renarin's "losing his mind" and Dalinar freaks out during highstorms? That kind of fodder is exactly the sort of thing their House's enemies would use to tear them down. "Look, House Kholin is mentally unstable, they need to be removed from power." Obviously that's not something he'd want to reveal, even to his family. He already dislikes that they see him as weaker, and he doesn't want to add to that at all.

 

"And the Shardblade," Dalinar said, stepping over and taking his son by the shoulder. "You hear screams. That's what happened to you in the arena. You couldn't fight because of those shouts in your head from summoning the Blade. Why? Why didn't you say anything?"

"I thought it was me," Renarin whispered. "My mind."

-- WoR Ch. 89

 

In addition to that, the other part of his secret is that he's seeing the future. Also known as an extremely taboo action in Vorinism. Against his will, he is experiencing visions that his religion says are of the Voidbringers and actually evil. He thinks that whatever is happening to him is against what is morally right, but there's nothing that he can do about it other than make sure no one finds out. When everyone thinks that Dalinar is the one who is carving the glyphs, everyone around him seems to be extremely unsettled by the idea, especially Adolin. Considering how close Renarin and Adolin are, I have no doubt that Adolin talks about how uncomfortable he is with the idea of their dad seeing the future with Renarin, who simply has to sit there and think "I can never tell, because look how awful everyone thinks this is."

 

He turned to Adolin. “I think it’s obvious now that I was behind each of these. Why does that bother you so, son?”
 

“It’s the idea of you scribbling on the ground,” Adolin said, shivering. “Lost in one of those visions, not in control of yourself.”
 

“Th e Almighty’s path for me is a strange one,” Dalinar said. “Why do I need to get the information this way? Scratches on the ground or the wall? Why not say it to me plainly in the visions?”
 

“It’s foretelling, you realize,” Adolin said softly. “Seeing the future. A thing of the Voidbringers.”

--WoR Ch. 50

 

In a way, it's almost as though he's "closeted" about his powers. Renairn has something outside of his control that his religion is vehemently opposed to. He keeps it a secret because he is worried that his family and the people around him might hate him if they knew. The only reason he "came out" about his powers is that he was dragged into a vision against his will in the presence of witnesses. He was lucky at the time that there were other respected Radiants like Shallan and Kaladin, therefore his powers might not be hated now, since they are (supposedly) tied to Surgebinding. But before Shallan and Kaladin were known? Someone seeing the future would probably be denounced by the church and hated by everyone who knew.

 

In that situation, can you really think that he'd come forward and reveal himself? Even to his family? Someone who has more determination and self confidence like Dalinar learns to deal with the things that are happening to him and the fact that they are becoming known around the camps. Dalinar is also a mature adult who has years of experience, especially in being a public figure and dealing with unpopularity. Renarin on the other hand has been shown to be extremely insecure and self-doubting, already feeling like he's a failure to his family and he would want to hide anything that might make that perception worse. Especially when he's on the cusp of possibly proving that he could be a fighter, now that he's got Plate.

 

Alright, I could also go into the whole thing with why he jumped into the fight, but for one, this post is outlandishly long. Secondly, I've kinda already written that essay and it's over here: See, "Renarin as Brave?" section. You know, sometimes, I think I should stop writing crazy long essays about Renarin but for one, they're fun to write and people seem to like them so why not.

[DreamEternal]

I fear I have stirred up some animosity between myself and Renarin critics. How about a bonding exercise? Grab your rifles and join me around this barrel of live, defenseless fish, because nothing cheers me up more than criticizing a character everyone hates and no one will defend (Amaram).

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!! I SHALL DEFY YOU!

You see, Amaram is but a product of the society in wich he lives that recognizes the flaws of such society, but didn't manage to outgrow the way if thinking that was instiled in him. Remember that when Dalinar said that the ends do not justify the means even his children were shocked? And if the avarage lighteyes believes that a pointless war fought for riches under the pretest of vengeance, one that would most likely end with the pratical or literal enslavement or extermination of the parshendi for the crimes of their leaders, is a good enough end to justify such disregard for their own subjects, then why blame Amaram for thinking the reformation of Alethkar, a truly noble goal, justifies the killing if some soldiers? Especialy when so many more are slaughtered in pointless wars?

His sparing of Kaladin happened because for one moment he realized the evil of his actions, proving there is still room for redemption. Yes, he did come to regret his mercy, but why shouldn't he? If an avarage man is punished for a behavior he did out if impulse, risking his altruistic plans, his life work, wouldn't he come to regret it as moment if weakness, instead of changing his whole worldview to see that action as right and everything else he did as wrong? At the very least, Amaram can be a very virtuous man once the world has no need for his plans.

EDIT:TYPOS. Too much typos. Everywhere.

Edited June 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[FeatherWriter]

CHALLENGE ACCEPTED!!! I SHALL DEFY YOU!

You see, Amaram is but a product of the society in wich he lives that recognizes the flaws of such society, but didn't manage to outgrow the way if thinking that was instiled in him. Remember that when Dalinar said that the ends do not justify the means even his children were shocked? And if the avarage lighteyes believes that a pointless war fought for riches under the pretest of vengeance, one that would most likely end with the pratical or literal enslavement of the parshendi for the crimes of their leaders, is a good enough end to justify such disregard for their owb subjects, then why blame Amaram for thinking the reformation of Alethkar, a truly noble goal, justifies the killing if some soldiers? Especialy when so many more are slaughered in pointless wars?

His sparing of Kaladin happened because fir one moment he realized the evil of his actions, proving there is still room for redemption. Yes, he did come to regret his mercy, but why shouldn't he? If an avarage man is punished for a behavior he did out if impulse, risking his altruistic plans, his life work, wouldn't he come to regret it as moment if weakness, instead of changing his whole worldview to see that action as right and everything else he did as wrong? At the very least, Amaram can be a very virtuous man once the world has no need for his plans.

 

...how dare you make me read this with my own two eyes. I think I've gone blind.

 

(But no seriously, I was cracking up.)

[Quiver]

I just want to go on the record as saying the age difference is one of the reasons I was interested in Jasnah/Jasnadin. A younger man with an older woman isn't really a relationship I've seen much of in fantasy.

...okay, I'm done now.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Quiver

[DreamEternal]

...how dare you make me read this with my own two eyes. I think I've gone blind.

(But no seriously, I was cracking up.)

Sorry if my defense of Amaram was hurtful to your senses. May I recomend the Nightwatcher boon/bane thread? I doubt the payment required for minor amnesia is too great an expense for one such as you. Edited June 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[FeatherWriter]

I just want to go on the record as saying the age difference is one of the reasons I was interested in Jasnah/Jasnadin. A younger man with an older woman isn't really a relationship I've seen much of in fantasy.

...okay, I'm done now.

 

I'm guessing this was a typo, but I'm amused. Jasnah + Jasnah + Kaladin. Double the Jasnah. Even better. More Jasnah is always better.