Why so little Renarin love?

[Lightsworn Panda he/him]

(Sigh). lwd (actually, everyone on this thread), you may have just earned yourself a spot in Feather's next fanfiction.

[lwd24era he/him]

(Sigh). lwd (actually, everyone on this thread), you may have just earned yourself a spot in Feather's next fanfiction.

 *dies*

[Lurthemir he/him]

(Sigh). lwd (actually, everyone on this thread), you may have just earned yourself a spot in Feather's next fanfiction.

Not sure how I feel about this. On one hand I'm probably in one of Feather's fanfics. On the other hand, I'm probably the antagonist. *sigh*

[Aleksiel]

Renarin gets little love?   He's one of the fandom's favorite characters!

[lwd24era he/him]

Oh? I apologize if I was mistaken.

[leinton]

I haven't seen a lot of Renarin love? I've seen a lot of "I love Adolin/Renarin moments" love, but I always felt that Renarin misses a lot of the fandom's love. 

 

Which is sad because Renarin is great y'all should love him, and as Feather said you all should spend this thread talking about his awesome instead of her awesome. 

 

I'd just like to mention that twice he has gone into battle without armor on. He's incredibly brave, selfless and more than a little reckless and it's really cute.

[Aleksiel]

Well, I haven't seen more than one or two people, who don't share the opinion Renarin's awesome. There are a few threads in WoR subforumon him (though with not so much flattering titles, I must admit) and several non-Renarin thread went off-topic in the direction of how cool he is. But there can't be too many threads about a great character.

 

 

I'd just like to mention that twice he has gone into battle without armor on. He's incredibly brave, selfless and more than a little reckless and it's really cute.

 

Exactly! I'm still not completely over him not being a

Dustbringer

whatever anyone says. How he ends up in WoR was reasonable, yet I felt a tiny bit of disappointment. I so wanted Ren to turn

Sadeas's shinning Plate into dust...

 

Sorry, I can't really restrain myself to not include anything WoR when talking about him. 

A serious question - does Renarin have a box he flips in WoK? I have completely forgotten this.

[maxal she/her]

I haven't seen a lot of Renarin love? I've seen a lot of "I love Adolin/Renarin moments" love, but I always felt that Renarin misses a lot of the fandom's love. 

 

Which is sad because Renarin is great y'all should love him, and as Feather said you all should spend this thread talking about his awesome instead of her awesome. 

 

I'd just like to mention that twice he has gone into battle without armor on. He's incredibly brave, selfless and more than a little reckless and it's really cute.

 

I mentioned I felt the few things Renarin did are sometimes taken out of proportion and his supposed alleged acts of bravery are among those things. In the chasmfield scene, Renarin does not engage in battle, he goes near the thing where his father has fallen and he expresses concern for his well being. He stays there a few seconds before he is sent back to safety. Now, Dalinar was worried to see his young son being to close to the thing as he would have like. End of the scene. When I read the scene I thought he was acting foolishly, not bravely.

 

Honestly, I have never read Renarin as incredibly brave and reckless... I read him as cautious, shy, reserved, loving but extremely secretive to the point of being frustrating. The one time were he could have really made a difference, he refused to contribute out of fear. He also refused to protect the scholars. True, he goes into battle to help his brother, but his contribution is largely overstated. The true hero of this scene was just not him, it was Kal.

 

Sometimes, I feel like I am reading a completely different character.

[maxal she/her]

Exactly! I'm still not completely over him not being a

Dustbringer

whatever anyone says. How he ends up in WoR was reasonable, yet I felt a tiny bit of disappointment. I so wanted Ren to turn

Sadeas's shinning Plate into dust...

 

Amazing how we disagree on this. I have never, never, never in a millions years saw him as such. Sorry.

 

Renarin is just not a warrior nor is he brave in the true sense of the word. He did one thing that was brave, but it was more out of concern than out of bravery.  He had other occasions to be brave and he choose not to. 

[Aleksiel]

Amazing how we disagree on this. I have never, never, never in a millions years saw him as such. Sorry.

 

Renarin is just not a warrior nor is he brave in the true sense of the word. He did one thing that was brave, but it was more out of concern than out of bravery.  He had other occasions to be brave and he choose not to. 

 

Yeah, I think we argued on this in another thread, so I'm not gonna start the same conversation here. He wanted to be a warrior and I wanted him to one, and I certainly didn't think of him as a scholar. Plus, he did a lot of brave things and my fan moment need no textual base anyway, but I just started the same argument I claimed I won't, so I'm gonna stop here    

[maxal she/her]

Yeah, I think we argued on this in another thread, so I'm not gonna start the same conversation here. He wanted to be a warrior and I wanted him to one, and I certainly didn't think of him as a scholar. Plus, he did a lot of brave things and my fan moment need no textual base anyway, but I just started the same argument I claimed I won't, so I'm gonna stop here    

 

It's OK. I sort of wanted him to become a warrior after WoK too. I was seeing him fighting with his brother... I was so deceived by him in WoR.

Edited May 17, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

I know he's getting a book, but I hope Ren has more screen time in the next one as well. Is it safe to assume he'd survive the first SA half?

Also, anyone remember him flipping a box in WoK?

[kaellok he/him]

@Aleksiel: I can't seem to find it now, but I'd swear that I read a post from Aether that included a List^TM about mentions of Renarin's box in both books.

 

@lwd: If you already like Renarin from WoK, then I'm pretty sure you'll love him in WoR.  There's quite a few huge spoilerific scenes where he gets to demonstrate how great he is; part of his greatness isn't because he's an amazing warrior or fighter like Adolin, but because he's not--and he doesn't let that stop him from doing what is good and right.  Even if he's not the 'hero' of the scene, his actions are still heroic.

 

But, yeah, you should really go read WoR now.  Or a month or two ago, but that might be hard at this point without a time machine.  While I have more issues with WoR than I did WoK, it is still the better book, and imo the best-written by Sanderson yet.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Does everyone love Renarin or not?
It's worth noting that the tumblr side of the fandom is quite a bit more friendly toward Renarin (as a whole) than the general population of 17S. Which is not surprising, as the tumblr fandom is about... 50-100 people on a strong day, while 17S is huge. So, the general fandom opinion seems kinda ambivalent or ignorant of Renarin if you're looking at 17S alone, but those of us on the tumblr side have more of an idea of "oh wait, everyone loves Renarin!" 
 
Renarin as brave?
Maxal, you used the phrase "brave and reckless" a few times, and I'd argue that they're two separate ideas. Renarin is brave, but I would not call him reckless. You and I have gone back and forth in threads before about this, but I'll reiterate a little bit. Renarin, by virtue of his "blood weakness" has been unable to do traditionally Vorin masculine things and as such he feels like "a useless drain on everyone's time" (Renarin, WoK Ch. 18) Because of this, I would argue that he had a deep-felt need and desire to be able to be useful. To prove that he is capable of doing something that matters.
 
We see this especially when his family is in danger. Renarin shows himself multiple times to be willing to go into a dangerous situation to try to do something to help. He cannot stand by and watch his family and the people he loves in a situation where they might need help and not do anything. Dalinar vs. the chasmfiend in Way of Kings is a perfect example of this, and I'm sure those who have read Words of Radiance are aware of another (which I will avoid saying to keep away from spoilers). 
 

“I’ve been meaning to speak with you, son,” Dalinar said. “About the hunt last week.”
Renarin’s eyes flickered downward in shame, the edges of his mouth pulling back in a grimace. Yes, he did have emotions. He just didn’t show them as often as others.
“You realize that you shouldn’t have rushed into battle as you did,” Dalinar said sternly. “That chasmfiend could have killed you.”
“What would you have done, Father, if it had been me in danger?”
“I don’t fault your bravery; I fault your wisdom. What if you’d had one of your fits?”
“Then perhaps the monster would have swept me off the plateau,” Renarin said bitterly, “and I would no longer be such a useless drain on everyone’s time.”
“Don’t say such things! Not even in jest.”
“Was it jest? Father, I can’t fight.”

 
I know that I quote this passage a lot but it's very, very revealing about Renarin's mindset in regards to himself and what he values. He reveals that he considers dying in a way that helps the people he loves as more valuable than living uselessly. Which is a very brave and very selfless mindest, but is also very close to suicide ideation (and therefore very heartbreaking to me). He shows that he thinks of himself as worthless because he cannot fight and shows a desperation for wanting to be useful, to be able to do something, anything to help.

 

Maxal, I know you find him foolish and think that his rushing into danger is a poor decision, and objectively, you're probably right. But I'm not looking at things objectively based on how much they helped the situation or not, I'm looking at them subjectively, specifically from Renarin's perspective. From that angle, I find them incredibly brave and selfless. I find a character who loves his family and hates that he cannot do more for them. I find a mindset that has equated being able to be useful to his family, being able to protect the people he cares about, as worth dying for. And I appreciate and respect that.

 

Renarin as a scholar or a warrior?

I will still argue (and will probably continue to argue to the grave) that Renarin has a scholarly mindset. He's analytical and he works through his problems in a very logical and scholarly way. We see multiple times throughout Way of Kings and Words of Radiance that he has a fascination with fabrials, often going over to inspect them or ask Navani about them. There's a moment in Words of Radiance where he notices Kaladin inspecting a fabrial and actually goes over and starts a conversation with Kaladin about it.

 

Yes. Renarin. Going over and starting a conversation with someone who is almost a stranger to him.

 

In Way of Kings while Adolin and Dalinar are arguing about whether or not Dalinar's visions are not delusions, Renarin is the one who comes up with the idea to prove that they're true. He figures out on his own that Dalinar sought out the Old Magic and logically comes to the conclusion that they are not the reason for Dalinar's visions. Later, with Navani, Renarin reveals that he's been doing research on the problem (though he doesn't use that word). He's been having various books on the Old Magic read to him to try to understand how it works. When Navani starts talking about the legend of Parasaphi, Renarin is the one who is familiar with the information and knows it well enough to keep contributing to the conversation. Dalinar mentions that Renarin is suited to the ardentia and thinks Renarin would make a good engineer, however, Renarin does not want to join the ardentia.

 

(If anyone wants sources on these claims I can provide quotes, though for the sake of time, I'm leaving them out here.)

 

I will swear up and down that Renarin has the heart of a scholar, though I think it's something that he would deny about himself if confronted about it directly. I don't think he's totally conscious of the fact that he does these scholarly things instinctively. He wants to be the kind of son that a highprince deserves to have, he wants to be the kind of person worthy of being fourth in line for the throne, and second in line for the Kholin princedom. I very much believe that he would consider scholarship and engineering as, obviously, feminine and therefore, something he should avoid if he wants to prove himself. I think he sees going into the ardentia and becoming an engineer as "failing" or "giving up." Like some kind of final proof that he's not worthy of being a his father's sone, you know? And doing so would be to put what he wants and what interests him above the needs of his family, which, as established above, is a very un-Renarin thing to do.

 

He's going to continue trying to be a warrior and trying to live up to these masculine ideals because he is convinced that he is supposed to and that it is something he needs to do. He's not the kind of person to give up on something just because he's not good at it, not if he sees it as something that needs to be done. This is especially true after he gets Shardplate at the end of WoK. Shardplate was supposed to solve things for him, make it easier, make him able to fight. He refuses to give up, even if he has trouble with it still. Whether or not he is competent or good enough for the task does not factor into the equation. He sees what "needs to be done" and he commits himself to doing it, even when he doesn't see a chance of succeeding or only sees a small chance. Whether that's learning to fight or trying to rescue his family from danger, he puts the needs of others above all else and endeavors to do something to accomplish those goals, even when actually winning seems impossible.

 

Renarin's Box

Renarin's box is not mentioned in Way of Kings, and I have a pretty good idea of why. In between Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, Brandon got some notes from Elise Warren (my friend Ellie) on autism and epilepsy and what it looks like to live as an adult with these conditions. Because Ellie is a cool person and a friend of mine, I've read the notes, and they mention the use of stim toys, little objects that are easy to fiddle with to help keep hands occupied and give the person something relaxing and repetitive to do. 

 

It is my personal belief that Brandon gave Renarin his little box as a stim toy as a result of the influence of Ellie's notes. Which means I will never ever shut up about how cool Ellie is because my friend helped my favorite author write my favorite character and that is the most amazing thing ever woooooooooooo.

 

Aether's list, that kaellok mentioned, can be found here, though as I said, it contains only quotes from Words of Radiance, so spoiler warning.

[Aleksiel]

Thanks for the clarification on the box! Your friend is awesome.

 

Also, please don't shoot me, Feather, but I think the example you gave is more on the reckless side. Yes, it was very brave of Ren to try to help, but it was also reckless, because he had no weapon or armor.

 

I had set my mind so much on Renarin

bringing down Sadeas (I wanted revenge ever since he called him 'useless' on that hunt) that I ignored plenty, but that ship has sailed now.

. Now that you pointed out his scholarly moments, I wonder how could I have missed them so completely. 

[lwd24era he/him]

*wipes away copious amounts of tears* That, Lady Feather, was amazing. I love Renarin even more now, being reminded of all the things he did in Wok, and the way you wrote about it just...wow. Truly inspirational. I love Kal, but I empathize more with Renarin. He is now officially my favorite character in SA. And maybe of the cosmere(although I love me some Kelsier).

[maxal she/her]

Actually Feather, believe or not, I agree with most of what you say. I actually the word "reckless" because many people use it to describe Renarin and it makes my ears cringe as he is just not reckless.

 

I always saw Renarin more as a scholar than a warrior and I have stated that many times over. I never disputed the fact he is a loving person who cares deeply about his family. His interactions with is brother are among my favorite part of both books, especially since I think they will start to grow apart in the next book.

 

I also agree on how his "acts of bravery" were indeed attempts to protect those he loves (his father, his brother).

 

However, I do not agree he is a particularly brave person, selfless, yes definitely, but brave? He has had many occasions towards the end of WoR to be brave and yet he doesn't. The only two instances where he tries to be brave are when his family is having trouble.... which  speaks of caring, not bravery, at least not to me.

 

I must also say I did not like his character's growth (or how it was handled) in WoR. I did not like the ending and yes he annoyed me greatly there. I hate people being secretive on purpose and it was highly frustrating for me to read Renarin's take into the ending.

 

Overall, he is, for me, an average character. I do not hate him, I reserve this feeling for Szeth, Elhokar and Mr T, but he is not one of my favorites. I like him most when he is with his brother whom I absolutely love and we didn't get so much of this in WoR. He may still grow on me, but he will have to learn to speak up and to take actions for this to happen.

[Aleksiel]

You expect a

Truthwatcher to spill out his secrets?

Didn't you read the epigraph about them?

[lwd24era he/him]

Just a random aside-I love Szeth!

[maxal she/her]

You expect a

Truthwatcher to spill out his secrets?

Didn't you read the epigraph about them?

 

Yes! But I just hate people being secretive! I am so sorry....

[maxal she/her]

Just a random aside-I love Szeth!

 

 I hate Szeth. I am not thrilled about having to read a book about him. It better be good

Edited May 17, 2014 by maxal

[Aleksiel]

Yes! But I just hate people being secretive! I am so sorry....

 

It's ok. Shallan's denial moment get on my nerves (and some of her word-games). Not that I don't like her overall, but yeah, I get you.

 

 

 I hate Szeth. I am not thrilled about having to read a book about him. It better be good

 

Brandon made WoR better than WoK (imo), so have no fear. It will be awesome. Also, you'll have the chance to really change your mind. Here I just pity him. And I also (dark confession incoming) like Elhokar just because he has so much potential for character growth. That's one of the reasons I like Ren, there are just so many possibilities infront of him, so many paths he could take.

[lwd24era he/him]

Agreed Aleksiel.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Mod note: Maxal, please don't double post. Use the multiquote or edit buttons if you need to, please. /mod note

 

Thanks for the clarification on the box! Your friend is awesome.
 
Also, please don't shoot me, Feather, but I think the example you gave is more on the reckless side. Yes, it was very brave of Ren to try to help, but it was also reckless, because he had no weapon or armor.
 
I had set my mind so much on Renarin

bringing down Sadeas (I wanted revenge ever since he called him 'useless' on that hunt) that I ignored plenty, but that ship has sailed now.

. Now that you pointed out his scholarly moments, I wonder how could I have missed them so completely.

I live an Ellie appreciation kind of life. ELLLLLLIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEE. 
 

Now that you pointed out his scholarly moments, I wonder how could I have missed them so completely.

See, that's the cool thing about Renarin. He's stealthy awesome. If you don't look for him, you miss out on how cool he is. But when you look, Brandon's got all kinds of amazingess hidden away.
 

 

Actually Feather, believe or not, I agree with most of what you say. I actually the word "reckless" because many people use it to describe Renarin and it makes my ears cringe as he is just not reckless.

(...)

I also agree on how his "acts of bravery" were indeed attempts to protect those he loves (his father, his brother).

 

However, I do not agree he is a particularly brave person, selfless, yes definitely, but brave? He has had many occasions towards the end of WoR to be brave and yet he doesn't. The only two instances where he tries to be brave are when his family is having trouble.... which  speaks of caring, not bravery, at least not to me.

 

Also, please don't shoot me, Feather, but I think the example you gave is more on the reckless side. Yes, it was very brave of Ren to try to help, but it was also reckless, because he had no weapon or armor.

 

To respond to both of you, I define the word "reckless" as more of a thrill-seeking, thoughtless, carefree kind of mindset. Throwing caution to the wind and just sort of doing whatever. Which is not Renarin at all. He's a very careful and thoughful person, and "reckless" doesn't really cover him. On the other hand, I'd define bravery as not giving in to fear. It's being afraid of something and doing it anyway. I'd say that Renarin is well aware of the dangers of the situations he's gotten into but despite the danger and despite being scared, he stays in them and sticks it out. To me, that's brave.

 

And I'm not gonna go into our differences in opinion on Renarin's behavior at the end of WoR, since we've danced that dance before and we're kind of avoiding spoilers here on lwd's behalf. Speaking of whom...

 

*wipes away copious amounts of tears* That, Lady Feather, was amazing. I love Renarin even more now, being reminded of all the things he did in Wok, and the way you wrote about it just...wow. Truly inspirational. I love Kal, but I empathize more with Renarin. He is now officially my favorite character in SA. And maybe of the cosmere(although I love me some Kelsier).

 

*pats* Welcome to the group of Renarin lovers. The way I see it, I pretty much just can't shut up about all the feelings and thoughts I have about him, and if other people end up reading those ramblings and liking him more, then bonus.

[maxal she/her]

It's ok. Shallan's denial moment get on my nerves (and some of her word-games). Not that I don't like her overall, but yeah, I get you.

 

She gets on my nerves at times, so yes I understand you

 

 

Brandon made WoR better than WoK (imo), so have no fear. It will be awesome. Also, you'll have the chance to really change your mind. Here I just pity him. And I also (dark confession incoming) like Elhokar just because he has so much potential for character growth. That's one of the reasons I like Ren, there are just so many possibilities infront of him, so many paths he could take.

 

I hope you are right, but to be honest I was so not thrill about Szeth chapters so far.... I cannot even muster to feel pity for him I sincerely hope you are right. I was anxious about reading a book about Shallan and I turned out liking it, so I will give Szeth a chance, but as of now, he indeed is on my "hate list"

 

Elhokar? Really? The only potential character growth I see for him is going evil.............. And I must admit, I am kind of hoping for it... For me, the worst turn off would be him becoming KR as I sincerely do not see him having any of the required qualities. He is a whinny, self-pitying man who sees himself as a perpetual victim. He does nothing to get out of it (or to improve) and I believe Kal was right: he should just give up the throne to his uncle. He even creates one assassination attempt just to get his uncle's attention. To me, this screams spoiled attention seeker child in bright letters and at 27 years old, it is quite pathetic.

 

Actually, I do not agree with you on Ren character's growth. It is pretty straight forward for him: he will become a powerful and respected Radiant. He will find his place in the world. He will find how to useful despite not being a warrior. It has all been written out in advance. How boring Now Adolin.... We just don't know how that one will turn out.  We don't know if he'll ever manage to get a spren, we don't know how he'll deal with what he needs to deal with, we don't know if he'll turn evil, we don't even know if he'll survive the series..... He is, in my view, a much much more interesting character than Renarin will ever be which is probably why I rout so much for him.

 

 

 

To respond to both of you, I define the word "reckless" as more of a thrill-seeking, thoughtless, carefree kind of mindset. Throwing caution to the wind and just sort of doing whatever. Which is not Renarin at all. He's a very careful and thoughful person, and "reckless" doesn't really cover him. On the other hand, I'd define bravery as not giving in to fear. It's being afraid of something and doing it anyway. I'd say that Renarin is well aware of the dangers of the situations he's gotten into but despite the danger and despite being scared, he stays in them and sticks it out. To me, that's brave.

 

 

Actually,

 

Search Results

brav·er·y

ˈbrāv(ə)rē/

noun

noun: bravery

courageous behavior or character.

synonyms:

courage, valor, intrepidity, nerve, daring, fearlessness, audacity, boldness, dauntlessness, stoutheartedness, heroism

 

 

I just do not see Renarin there. He is not intrepid, daring, fearless, audacious nor bold. All this words describe his brother, not him. The fact that he tries at times to help his family does not qualify him as brave. Note here, I am not saying he is a scarecrow either, it is just that brave is not one attribute I would use to describe him.

 

I agree with you he is a thoughtful and careful person. I have no issues with this.

 

However, I disagree he knew exactly the dangers he got himself into. It felt more like he rushed in without any thoughts at all. It felt impulsive. During the chasmfield scene, Renarin did not even think it could be dangerous... He just acted. Adolin, on the other hand, knew full well what he was getting himself into and he kept doing it knowing how badly it would end. After his brother intervention, he kept at it because he was just not willing to sacrifice his brother for his own well being. Now, that was incredibly brave, because he knows and he consciously gives up everything for his brother (his life and/or his physical integrity). It did not see Renarin's actions has having the same intensity. He feels clueless most of the time so I figured he jump naively jump in because he couldn't stand doing nothing. There was indeed some bravey to it, but not enough to use the word "brave" to describe his whole persona. Besides, as I have stated, he's had other occasions to be brave and he didn't.