Kaladin and the Knights Radiant

[Elwynn]

I think it's more complicated than just being 'truth' spren.  At least, that's the impression I got when seeing the Brandon quote that gave them the name.  Can anyone dig that up?

 

 

Yes, I keep meaning to do a post on them. But we don't have to call them Truthspren anymore, BS named them Cryptics.

 

Also, the symbols making up their heads are not glyphs, but we should be able recognize them.

[Meg]

Yes, I keep meaning to do a post on them. But we don't have to call them Truthspren anymore, BS named them Cryptics.

 

Also, the symbols making up their heads are not glyphs, but we should be able recognize them.

 

 

He did? When? Where? 

[Elwynn]

On his reddit interview. You can probably search it out on this site since windrunner posted it, I think. Here's the link, but I suck at it, so sorry if it doesn't work.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/1a3fj0/discussion_of_the_week_shadesmar_truthspren/

[Galladon he/him]

Circling back to the beginning:

 

beeing taught to bond a spren:

 

- consider there where around 2400 raidiance at any given point in time and say that each of them served 24 years that would mean that there had to be 100 KR replaced each year so 1 every 3and a half days. If it wasn't taught how do you suppose they organized all of that?

 

- besides lets say that this would be the minimum force requiered to bearly survive a desolation so it's reasonable to assume that the "last desolation" would requiere even more especially without the herolds present. Also I don't think there is too much time left till the KR have to stand again. So I guess either "bound men" will pop up around the world by the hundreds or they will have to finde a way to teach or encourage bonding.

[Arran]

It certainly seems that spren are attracted to a person acting and thinking in accordance to the quality/ideal that spren represents, and that the bond begins forming then. But I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it is when the person faces some great trial, especially of the kind that makes it difficult or even seemingly impossible to keep upholding the quality/ideal, that opportunities come to majorly strengthen the bond, sometimes with the spren's help/encouragement.

 

When Kaladin was at his lowest and despairingly contemplating suicide, Syl convinced him to keep going, and she began to rapidly develop her consciousness/memories thereafter. At the battle of the Tower, in part thanks to Syl's words, Kaladin resisted the temptation of fleeing from the battle and abandoning Dalinar's army, instead choosing to throw away his men's potential freedom to go rescue Dalinar's army. I think this act of selfless honor created the opportunity for Kaladin and Syl to strengthen their bond anew, so that when Kaladin shortly thereafter was once more confronted with the nightmare of helplessly watching his men get slaughtered, he and Syl were ready for the next major expansion of their bond – the Words of the Second Ideal.

 

Shallan fits this theory, too. It was when Shallan was panicking and under great stress that she directly contacted whatever spren she's associated with and made her first Soulcasting. And it was when she was despairing after the discovery of her theft and the apparent doom of her family's hopes that she figured out much of the truth about Jasnah's Soulcaster, how Shallan herself could contact her spren(s?), and how she could visit Shadesmar and Soulcast on her own.

[Leuthie]

Quick thought: Cryptics? Cultivation's spren representing problem solving?

[Elwynn]

Quick thought: Cryptics? Cultivation's spren representing problem solving?

 

My first thought was that they are Cultivation's too, though I'm beginning to think they are either a mixture of Honor and Cultivation or only of Honor and Syl is actually the mixture.

 

There seems to be argument among them of who gets to claim that title...http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=836...http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1999-writing-for-charity-interview/

 

The only reason I doubt Cryptics are solely from Cultivation is the requirement of truths. Truth would seem to be far easier to relate to Honor than Cultivation. And Cryptics were already cognizant of their abilities and what they can offer Shallan the first time she spoke to them, rather than having to 'grow' into it like Syl did.

 

They could have been following her around for long while before that, but if they hadn't remembered anything, like Syl couldn't, you would think they would have spoken to her sooner with some questions of their own or something.

 

They seem so drastically different from Syl, and I can't see them being only of Cultivation, so I'm really starting to think of them as the mixture of both that we've seen. It's possible Syl is the one mistaken though. *shrug* Dying to get WoR so we can learn so much more about spren.

[Leuthie]

Honor and truth don't necessarily follow each other. Its honorable to.turn yourself in for killing your father, not necessarily for telling a random spirit that you did.

[Elwynn]

Honor and truth don't necessarily follow each other. Its honorable to.turn yourself in for killing your father, not necessarily for telling a random spirit that you did.

 

Truth would seem to be far easier to relate to Honor than Cultivation.

 

Nobody said they follow each other. Was just explaining why I don't personally think Cryptics are purely of Cultivation when truth would be harder to correlate with cultivation than with honor.

[Leuthie]

Going on the premise that Cryptics == Problem Solving Spren: Problem solving seems to line up with both Shards, but more with Cultivation. Since the Spren has really only asked for one boon so far (truth), its still possible that truth isn't the only path it has to Shadesmar.

How did she end up there the first time? Don't have the book with me to look it up.

[Elwynn]

Going on the premise that Cryptics == Problem Solving Spren: Problem solving seems to line up with both Shards, but more with Cultivation. Since the Spren has really only asked for one boon so far (truth), its still possible that truth isn't the only path it has to Shadesmar.

How did she end up there the first time? Don't have the book with me to look it up.

 

I think I see what you're saying now, I'm not too sure myself about the problem solving aspect though, is that a planned subject to get into on your long form explanation in the other thread?

 

There has actually been two truth requirements, which relates to the first time she entered Shadesmar (right before she fakes a suicide attempt).

 

The first time was when she noticed them and started running away, re-drawing the scenes around her as she went to see if they were following(they were). She gets back to her rooms in Jasnah's quarters and backs up to the wall as they come closer and closer...and it seems that the voice in her head doesn't begin until one of them finally touches her.

 

She freakes out and ends up putting her hand on the nightstand and a goblet full of spheres. It asks what she is...and she replies she terrified. So apparently a situational/emotional truth that exists in the moment is sufficient for them to take her there. Which would make it very hard to run out of truths.

 

Because her hand is touching the goblet/chalice (I can't remember, all of this is heavily paraphrased), it begins talking to her (as a bead in Shadesmar she still holds in her hand). She changes it into blood, which many people here think points to her primary essence since it didn't seem to be a cognizant choice.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Actually, the first time she saw them was when she did Taravangian's drawing.  The second time was when she started running from them.

 

Pretty sure it was the cryptic talking to her before she entered Shadesmar, (C:What are you?  S: I'm afraid.) and the goblet only started talking to after she entered Shadesmar.  (I can change if you want, I've been this way for a very long time.)  It looks like it's only the entrance to Shadesmar that requires the truth, the Soulcasting requires a supply of Stormlight to convince an object's cognitive aspect to change its physical form.

 

I just double checked, I don't have the wording perfect, but that's pretty much how it happened.

 

I  wonder if the Cryptics are a group existence, where the Nahel bond connects them to her as a whole, or if there was only one individual in that group that she became bound to.   If they are a group, then perhaps each one is associated with a different essence.  So there would be 10 of them, and she would have to strengthen bonds with each of them in order to be able to Soulcast into all the various Essences, with greater complexity requiring a stronger Nahel bond.  It's complete supposition, but it sounds fun.

[Meg]

Pretty sure it was the cryptic talking to her before she entered Shadesmar, (C:What are you?  S: I'm afraid.) and the goblet only started talking to after she entered Shadesmar.  (I can change if you want, I've been this way for a very long time.)  It looks like it's only the entrance to Shadesmar that requires the truth, the Soulcasting requires a supply of Stormlight to convince an object's cognitive aspect to change its physical form.

 

I just double checked, I don't have the wording perfect, but that's pretty much how it happened.

 

 

I may have missed something (or not or misunderstood), but I read these words "I can change ..." as coming from one of the Cryptics not from the goblet. This was my earlier impression and now, knowing more about Syl's development (she seemed to stay in a kind of "mind stasis" (lacking a better description) before she ran about Kal and was attracted by him and his actions what led to her following and bonding with him and gaining more and more sentience), I've read it as for the Cryptics could change (gaining more sentience and conscience of the physical world too). 

Also, Jasnah called Shallan an "idiot girl" because she entered Shadesmar "with only a little dim sphere", what implies to me that entering Shadesmar has quite a cost paid in Stormlight. 

 

I apologize if I got this wrong (what happens to me quite too often). 

[Elwynn]

Actually, the first time she saw them was when she did Taravangian's drawing. The second time was when she started running from them.

 

I didn't say anything about the first time she saw them, was just clarifying the two truth requirements with the Cryptics. Left the first the first time she saw them out b/c there was no interaction/no trip to Shadesmar.

 

And I just re-read my post, oops, definitely didn't mean to make it seem like the goblet was the first thing talking her, but it sure reads that way.  Cheese cleared it up and restated it nicely, thank you for that, would never have noticed otherwise.

 

But that first time she drew the Cryptics, the one I left out b/c there was no interaction, I do believe there were a different number of them watching (she was sitting with Taravangian and Jasnah) than the second time, so I thought a couple were Jasnah's spren until we get to the end, where it's pretty clear she doesn't have the same ones.

 

So that could lend a lot of credence to your (Cheese) thoughts on 10 types and having to bond with each of them. Which I think is a pretty great idea.

 

I'm with Cheese on the goblet being the one to say, 'I can change.' Shallan's remarks on the voice make it seem like it is very different from the Cryptic's voice(s). Plus the "I can change...give me what you have..." and then it changes into blood. Seems enough for me.

 

edit: spelling

Edited April 5, 2013 by Elwynn

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I may have missed something (or not or misunderstood), but I read these words "I can change ..." as coming from one of the Cryptics not from the goblet. This was my earlier impression and now, knowing more about Syl's development (she seemed to stay in a kind of "mind stasis" (lacking a better description) before she ran about Kal and was attracted by him and his actions what led to her following and bonding with him and gaining more and more sentience), I've read it as for the Cryptics could change (gaining more sentience and conscience of the physical world too). 

Also, Jasnah called Shallan an "idiot girl" because she entered Shadesmar "with only a little dim sphere", what implies to me that entering Shadesmar has quite a cost paid in Stormlight. 

 

I apologize if I got this wrong (what happens to me quite too often). 

No need to apologize, we get things wrong all the time, half the usefulness of this forum is people pointing out when we're wrong.  The voice of the Cryptic was described as "cold whisper", and the voice of the goblet as "warm":

You want me to change? a warm voice said in her mind, distinct and different from the cold whisper she had heard earlier. It was deep and hollow and conveyed a sense of great age. It seemed to come from her hand, and she realized she was grasping something there. One of the beads.

 

The movement of the ocean of glass threatened to tow her down; she kicked frantically, somehow managing to stay afloat.

 

I’ve been as I am for a great long time, the warm voice said. I sleep so much. I will change. Give me what you have.

 

“I don’t know what you mean! Please, help me!”

 

I will change.

 

She felt suddenly cold, as if the warmth were being drawn from her. She screamed as the bead in her fingers flared to sudden warmth. She dropped it just as a shift in the ocean swell towed her under, beads rolling over one another with a soft clatter.

I think the reason Jasnah called her an idiot girl for entering Shadesmar with one dim sphere is that the amount of control they have in Shadesmar is linked to the amount of Stormlight they have there.  Once Shallan used her Stormlight to (accidentally) Soulcast the goblet, the ocean towed her under.  Later when Shallan enters Shadesmar in front of Jasnah she started drowning almost immediately and something even tugged her leg.

 

The reddit question:

And on an unrelated question, they have symbols on their heads. If Shallan managed to draw one of these would it be some glyph? Perhaps some glyph that we would recognize, like the glyphs in the artwork at the front?

As for the symbols making up the heads of the cryptics, those are not glyphs. But it's possible you would recognize them...

 

Are we sure that the symbols we see in the book artwork (BS posted them on his site.) are glyphs?  It seems like the mention of "the ten fundamental glyphs" in the book are probably the same as the ones used to represent the Orders on the drawing of the Orders and the Surges. (Elhokar's Shardblade, Sunraiser has the ten glyphs etched on the sides.)  Those would have been my favorite choices for the Cryptic's heads, if we hadn't been told otherwise.  But are the smaller symbols used to represent the Surges considered to be glyphs, and what about the 20 symbols on the similar illustration with the woman along the border instead of the Heralds?

[Meg]

The reddit question:

 

Are we sure that the symbols we see in the book artwork (BS posted them on his site.) are glyphs?  It seems like the mention of "the ten fundamental glyphs" in the book are probably the same as the ones used to represent the Orders on the drawing of the Orders and the Surges. (Elhokar's Shardblade, Sunraiser has the ten glyphs etched on the sides.)  Those would have been my favorite choices for the Cryptic's heads, if we hadn't been told otherwise.  But are the smaller symbols used to represent the Surges considered to be glyphs, and what about the 20 symbols on the similar illustration with the woman along the border instead of the Heralds?

 

 

The second first: You refer to this one? IIRC BS said that somewhere (I can't find it at the moment) that we will discover what about this "sheet" is but he won't tell us "now". I'm sure he said this when he explained the Windrunner abilities with the sheet from the front, but I don't find it :/. 

So the linked sheet (right word?) may indeed have a relation to the symbols of the cryptics. 

 

 

 

No need to apologize, we get things wrong all the time, half the usefulness of this forum is people pointing out when we're wrong.  The voice of the Cryptic was described as "cold whisper", and the voice of the goblet as "warm":

I think the reason Jasnah called her an idiot girl for entering Shadesmar with one dim sphere is that the amount of control they have in Shadesmar is linked to the amount of Stormlight they have there.  Once Shallan used her Stormlight to (accidentally) Soulcast the goblet, the ocean towed her under.  Later when Shallan enters Shadesmar in front of Jasnah she started drowning almost immediately and something even tugged her leg.

 

 

About Shallan: Thanks for your further explanation. 

I'd have loved BS if he would have told us, whether the "the three spheres (inside (the goblet dropped) to the nightstand’s flooded top)", were dim or not after the Soulcasting, because I wonder where the Stormlight Shallan used there, might have come from. 

 

Another question comes up in my mind: The bead Shallan's holding while in Shadesmar -- the one that gets hot -- may this be the "Shadesmarian equivalent" of the goblet? Are the beads in Shadesmar then all equivalents of things (and persons?) of the physical realm? 

 

That's a few random thoughts (whilst I'm not really awake yet ). 

 

edit: better with quotes 

Edited April 6, 2013 by Meg

[Azul he/him]

I may be wrong but I think what you mean is Truth as in Facts (factspren sounds pretty silly though)  vs truth as in 'i will not tell a lie'.  and Jasnah is all about the Facts.

[hoser he/him]

I'd have loved BS if he would have told us, whether the "the three spheres (inside (the goblet dropped) to the nightstand’s flooded top)", were dim or not after the Soulcasting, because I wonder where the Stormlight Shallan used there, might have come from.

As I recall, the stormlight came from the gems in the "soulcaster" in her safepouch, which is why she thouight she'd accidentally used it.

[Senor Feesh]

Another question comes up in my mind: The bead Shallan's holding while in Shadesmar -- the one that gets hot -- may this be the "Shadesmarian equivalent" of the goblet? Are the beads in Shadesmar then all equivalents of things (and persons?) of the physical realm? 

 

Personally, I say yes - I think each of those beads is a representation of a cognitive presence. There are so many of them because every object has a cognitive aspect, even a rock, or a blade of grass.

 

I do wonder though - we know from the map of Shadesmar in the back of the hardcover that the seas and land in Shadesmar are reversed relative to Roshar - so when Shallan visits Shadesmar she's (presumably) in one of the seas (which seem to be made of these cognitive beads). That makes sense to me, as everything on the Rosharian landmass has a cognitive aspect.

 

But in the oceans of Roshar, there's land in Shadesmar. We've yet to see what land in Shadesmar looks like. I wonder if the ocean has a larger cognitive presence (because the ocean is huge) and therefore forms the landmass instead of a tiny bead. But then what of all the life in the ocean - where does their cognitive presence fit it? Also, how does the relationship between objects and bead size even work? Humans would (arguably) have a stronger cognitive presence than a goblet - would we therefore have larger beads?

 

Sorry to go OT, maybe this should be in a new topic...

[Meg]

Though it's off topic again I'd like to apologize because of my stubbornness in my posts about Shallan. Yesterday evening I've read a bit more than only chapter 46 and in chapter 48 I found what I missed before: 

 

 

I visited another place, she thought. I think…I think I spoke with the spirit of the goblet. Did a goblet, of all things, have a soul? Upon opening her pouch to check on the Soulcaster, she’d found that the sphere Kabsal had given her had stopped glowing. She could remember a vague feeling of light and beauty, a raging storm inside of her.
She’d taken the light from the sphere and given it to the goblet—the spren of the goblet—as a bribe to transform. Was that how Soulcasting worked? Or was she just struggling to make connections?

 

I'm sorry. 

[Cabbage]

From Dalinars trips to what ever it is, I think it's been inclined that all of the Radiants seem to have some form of Surge power.

As you've already pointed out, Dalinar is offered to go and train to become... something. Does this mean that the Surgebinding can be taught?

 

I doubt that it can be taught because then it would've most likely been passed on to others through the 4000 years and would've been some what of a normality. As it seems now, it's very, very rare.

So to sum this post up. No bridge four wont be the new batch of knights. However I believe more and more people will discover their new powers through out the course of the books.

 

However. If it were to be that bridge four became the knights. I'd love if they established the name Bridge Four instead of the wussy "Knights Radiant".

[Fistsofrage]

I think the most important thing about how the rest of bridge four will gain windrunning abilities, is how the ideals work. During Nohadon's time, windrunners/surgebinders seemed to be a problem, because they were not "acting" honorable or they were being irresponsible with their powers.

 

It is possible that after the leader of a Radiant group learns the words of an ideal, he can pass them on to his people. Therein lies a huge problem. Having the ideal show up in your mind and saying them of your own volition proves that you embody that ideal, but if a person can be given the words freely, without first proving themselves, that can give rise to a reckless use of power.

 

Also, honorspren may be the spren best suited to helping people find the words of an ideal. They act as a sort of consience or accountability partner and help you reach the point were you can find the words of a certain ideal on your own.

 

I bet Teft and kaladin will realize this, and since Kaladin's men follow his example, they will be the best set of surgebinders/windrunners on roshar.

[Bigtones he/him]

I think the most important thing about how the rest of bridge four will gain windrunning abilities, is how the ideals work. During Nohadon's time, windrunners/surgebinders seemed to be a problem, because they were not "acting" honorable or they were being irresponsible with their powers.

 

It is possible that after the leader of a Radiant group learns the words of an ideal, he can pass them on to his people. Therein lies a huge problem. Having the ideal show up in your mind and saying them of your own volition proves that you embody that ideal, but if a person can be given the words freely, without first proving themselves, that can give rise to a reckless use of power.

 

Also, honorspren may be the spren best suited to helping people find the words of an ideal. They act as a sort of consience or accountability partner and help you reach the point were you can find the words of a certain ideal on your own.

 

I bet Teft and kaladin will realize this, and since Kaladin's men follow his example, they will be the best set of surgebinders/windrunners on roshar.

 

I hope this to be true, this series has just begun but there is so much this series can offer.