Aizhen Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 First post: Go! I've searched through this site as best I can to find a discussion about why the Parshendi killed King Gavilar six years ago when he confided to them he was trying to bring their gods back, only to bring their gods back themselves. Did I miss something? I am an audio book listener and I do have three small children who have been neglected for the past two weeks since I discovered these books. I might have listened to them on repeat several times...but all the short bits at the beginning of the chapters are hard to keep straight when I can't see them. Is it just a potential discord within the Parshendi- those (like Eshoni and the three who took the blame for the king's death) who do not want the gods to return, and a secret, sub group (Venia and the "scholars) which has been working the whole time to find a way to make it happen? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dun Sphere Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Spoiler Alert: I'll try to help out the best I can. The Parshendi asassinated Gavilar because he was going to bring their gods back. When Eshonai took Stormform she didn't realize that she would not be able to control it, but she does have a conversation with Venli regarding her knowledge about the form after many had already taken it and Venli does admit to knowing that it was of the gods. The Parshendi were trying to discover different forms that they had forgotten after they were last defeated by the Radiants, but were trying to stay away from any forms that were of their gods. The discovery of Stormform came at a time when their backs were up against the wall. Their numbers were waning and Venli was the best at discovering new forms (I believe she even discovered Nimbleform). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Welcome! Yeah, I think it's kind of a plot problem. Brandon can come up with explanations, of course: different subgroups, evolving needs as described above, etc. But I prefer not to think about how obvious solutions like communicating with Gavilar or negotiating an end to the war before turning to Stormform would have avoided creating the Everstorm, something neither the Alethi nor the Parshendi wanted. Brandon needed the assassination and the Everstorm to happen, I figure. He has a story to tell and sometimes people have to do nonsensical things to make the story happen. It is sort of like Szeth being so crazy that he doesn't notice the Voidbringers that are in the climactic battle before continuing with trying to assassinate Dalinar. The voidbringers were the proof he needed that he was never Truthless, but insanity is a convenient way to make the battle happen that you want to have happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arook he/him Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 It has to do with the fact that the Pashendi had just spent 6 years losing a war. they were slowly dying having the gods come back was better then dying to them. they had orginally thought the alethi would get bored and leave them be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizhen Posted May 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 Thanks everyone, I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something. It kinda seemed like a plot hole- but I'm happy to believe than Brandon Sanderson is in complete control and it's not so. Venli and all her scholars seem a little too happy/comfortable with the whole change. Maybe Galvilar's plan gave Venli the idea in the first place? Excited to read Eshoni's back story. Being an audio book listener and looking around on this site has shown me how very much of the sub plots I've missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 It could also just be accidental. Based on what we see in the books, the different forms are tied to different spren. could just be that Venli saw a new kind of spren, tried using it, and came by stormform on accident. I seem to recall it being somewhat implied that she had tested out the form prior to sharing its existence with the other Parshendi. then it would just be a question of whether the odium corruption remains after they take another form, which I could see arguments either way. Venli leading a rogue group also seems plausible. anyway, the key was Eshonai. since she was well liked/trusted, once she had been corrupted, it is easy to see the other parshendi following her lead unknowing. that was my take anyway. I don't see it as a plot hole at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlatLine Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I kinda feel like we don't know enough. Are these really the void bringers that are back? What exactly was everyone up to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted May 16, 2015 Report Share Posted May 16, 2015 I kinda feel like we don't know enough. Are these really the void bringers that are back? ... With the Stormfather confirming it, I would say that the Voidbringers are definitely back. from WoK chapter 89: ...ANY OF THE OLD PEOPLE IT TOUCHES WILL TAKE ON THEIR NEW FORMS. "Voidbringers." THAT IS ONE TERM FOR THEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizhen Posted May 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 So... do we know what their gods are exactly? The storm form itself or the storm spren or the everstorm? That was something else I was wondering about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 Their gods are the Unmade. They are suspected to be some kind of powerful voidspren by the Diagram and most of the forum, and one of the listener songs calls them "splinters of a soul", wich fits what we know about spren, but Rlain says they were born of the souls of listeners who gave themselves to destroy. I suspect that they are both: souls of listeners fused with splinters of Odium. Brandon said that they have a fixed number, but it isn't ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sennah he/him Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) I've searched through this site as best I can to find a discussion about why the Parshendi killed King Gavilar six years ago when he confided to them he was trying to bring their gods back, only to bring their gods back themselves. Did I miss something? Just like in real life, not everyone has everything figured out. Especially a people as primitive as the Parshendi, they're going to be driven (As a society) by fear. When they had Gavilar killed, it was because fear drove them. When they decided to go into storm form, fear drove them.It's not like they killed King Gav for trying to bring back the Gods, then brought back the Gods. It's more like they killed King Gav for trying to being back the Gods, and then, when faced with no other option, took a risk that they thought might bring back their old Gods, because they could either do that or face extinction. So... do we know what their gods are exactly? The storm form itself or the storm spren or the everstorm? That was something else I was wondering about. I got the feeling that their God is going to be something similar to the Stormfather. I doubt it's Odium. But I could definitely be wrong.Edit: Similar to the Stormfather, but evil of course. I seem to recall it being somewhat implied that she had tested out the form prior to sharing its existence with the other Parshendi. She didn't. That's why she was so mad that Eshonai was going to be the first one in the form. Edited May 17, 2015 by WeiryWriter please don't double/triple post, in this case use the mulit-quote feature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 She didn't. That's why she was so mad that Eshonai was going to be the first one in the form. The problem there is our source for that is Venli. I'm not actually sure we should believe her. When I get a chance, I'll try to look up the passage that i'm thinking of. I could definitely be wrong, but i think there's a bit where Eshonai says something to the effect that Venli took to the new form much more quickly than would be normal, and is suspicious about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 The problem there is our source for that is Venli. I'm not actually sure we should believe her. When I get a chance, I'll try to look up the passage that i'm thinking of. I could definitely be wrong, but i think there's a bit where Eshonai says something to the effect that Venli took to the new form much more quickly than would be normal, and is suspicious about that. Yeah, it's heavily implied that Venli took stormform earlier. Simply put, Venli lied to Eshonai to get her to take stormform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 I took that to mean that Venli's nature was more closely aligned to the new form than other Listeners (ie Venli is evil and won't be redeemed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizhen Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I took that to mean that Venli's nature was more closely aligned to the new form than other Listeners (ie Venli is evil and won't be redeemed) That was my understanding as well. Venal seemed really upset about Eshonai claiming to change first because it took the "glory" from her, or something along those lines. But Eshonai didn't know at all what she was getting into whereas Venli was described as not changing much with the new form and Eshonai accuses her of knowing what she was doing all along. I would like to see Eshonai "redeemed" though I'm not sure how I feel about people thinking she'll be a knight radiant. There would be a TON of in-world-prejudice to overcome. People are already mistrustful of the KR, how would it look to them to see a parshman/parshendi/voidbringer as a KR? Maybe much later on in the series... after they have built people's trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrogKnight Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 That was my understanding as well. Venal seemed really upset about Eshonai claiming to change first because it took the "glory" from her, or something along those lines. But Eshonai didn't know at all what she was getting into whereas Venli was described as not changing much with the new form and Eshonai accuses her of knowing what she was doing all along. I would like to see Eshonai "redeemed" though I'm not sure how I feel about people thinking she'll be a knight radiant. There would be a TON of in-world-prejudice to overcome. People are already mistrustful of the KR, how would it look to them to see a parshman/parshendi/voidbringer as a KR? Maybe much later on in the series... after they have built people's trust. Parshendi cannot be knight radiants. Though from the way words of radiance ended, I feel Eshonai is still alive. She will probably some how be freed from the voidspren and fight agianst odium. and dont forget, there were some parshendi who escaped without changing into the new form. These parshendi may be the ones who rescue Eshonai after her fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 Parshendi cannot be knight radiants. We don't actually know that though. All Brandon has said is that they were not /traditionally/ made Knights Radiant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant he/him Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Going back to the original question, I think a bigger question may be why they just killed Gavilar for wanting to bring back their old gods (the Unmade) rather than warning him. Wouldn't that have made more sense? It seems like there wasn't any debating with him first (if I'm remembering correctly). I think there is probably something else going on here. As for the actual act of bringing back the voidforms (a tentative description), they were backed into a corner and I am not convinced they entirely knew what they were getting themselves into, with the exception of Venli and maybe a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arook he/him Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 @Weirywriter We do know that they can not bond with spren the same was humans do So can not be a knight Radiant in the traditional sense. Whether she joins one of the orders later is uncertain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant he/him Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 We don't actually know that though. All Brandon has said is that they were not /traditionally/ made Knights Radiant. However, no Listeners have bonded 'Surgespren' as I call them. That seems to be a requirement to be a Knight Radiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizhen Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 I read in a WoB that only humans can be radiants- can anyone confirm this? I also am re-listening to WoK and Shallan says that Gavilar thought the Parshendi gods to be the Chasm Fiends, maybe he revealed something to the parshendi about wanting to bring back the desolations- which we know Amaran is trying to do and that he thinks Gavilar wanted to do it as well- and certainly he didn't understand how the desolations are tied to the Parshendi. Instead of explaining to him, they just killed him. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) If Gavilar believed the Parshendi would be necessary to bring another desolation he should probaly know more about ther connection to desolations than he lets on, and more about their gods too, and if he didn't know, why involve them in his plans? Also, about Listener Radiants, Brandon so far has said that in universe, everyone would say they cannot exist, but refused to speak any further about it. Edited May 21, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizhen Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 If Gavilar believed the Parshendi would be necessary to bring another desolation he shoulf probaly know more about ther connection to desolations than he lets on, and more about theirs gods to, and if he didn't know, why involve them in his plans? Also, about Listener Radiants, Brandon so far has said that in universe, everyone would say they cannot exist, but refused to speak any further about it. That's a good point because he didn't even involve Dalinar in his plans- why the parshendi? But he said something of his plans to them that gave them the idea that he was bring back their gods. I'm not very good at typing my thoughts, -he tells them something about his "plan" -I assumed it has to do with bringing back the desolations because -that's what Amaran is doing and we know they were working together -and the parshendi claim to kill him because he was doing something "foolish" and later say that he was going to bring their gods back -i don't think he had any idea about the relationship between the parshendi and the desolations, he thought their gods were the great shells. SO what and why did he tell them? Jassnah thinks there's something fishy about it, she sets shallan to researching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 However, no Listeners have bonded 'Surgespren' as I call them. That seems to be a requirement to be a Knight Radiant. My pet headcanon for now is that at some point in the past the intelligent spren used to bond with Listeners, then humanity appeared and the Listeners got left in the dust, turning to the voidspren for power. Which makes me wonder what a Listener bond would do to, say, an honorspren as opposed to a Surgebinder bond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) My pet headcanon for now is that at some point in the past the intelligent spren used to bond with Listeners, then humanity appeared and the Listeners got left in the dust, turning to the voidspren for power. Which makes me wonder what a Listener bond would do to, say, an honorspren as opposed to a Surgebinder bond. If H+C brought the humans with them and the surgespren are composed of investiture from Honor and Cultivation, then they would not have been around before the humans were present. It makes sense to me that the power of Shadesmar would have been increased with the arrival of H+C+humans. Further, it may have taken time after the arrival of H+C+humanity for the surgespren to form, develop sentience, then the culture to decide to emulate the Honorblades. This would explain why Surgebinders didn't show up until around Nohadon's time, when humanity had been on Roshar for a significant amount of time. I interpret the listener songs about spren betrayal to be more from the point of view that "all your spren are belong to us." Edited May 21, 2015 by hoser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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