Duel to the Death: The Lord Ruler or Vasher?

[Voidus]

I didn't say he hated or distrusted Feruchemy - He just seems less enamoured of it than of his Allomancy.  

 

And I disagree - He's clearly capable of stopping and starting his Atium tapping to some extent.  He spends some time aged, to store more in his Atiumminds, after all.  If he could have gotten his Atiumminds back, I think he would have been fine.  

He doesn't spend time aged to store in his Atiumminds, if he was really storing in them then he'd be a 1000 year old skeleton not a slightly older man, he has to during that time still be tapping like 980 years worth of youth still.

As for being less enamored with it I disagree greatly, it's used to provide the two abilities that really set him apart, longevity and infinite healing. Other than that he's mostly just a powerful Mistborn, scary sure but not something you'd call a sliver of god, with them he's an immortal who has lived for over a millennium.

[Zathoth]

I think we need to set some rules here. If we have both at absolute maximum power (Vasher has the tenth hightening trice over, The Lord Ruler isnt being an arrogant idiot and is actually using all of his compounding) then I do think Lord Ruler would win unless Vasher figures out that he needs to rip out the bracelet. If this is an assassination attempt by Vasher then he could indeed just awaken Kredik Shaw and be over with it. I dont think TLR could do much about that.

 

If Vasher has... lets say the sixth hightening (The fifth with the divine breath, a bit over the fourth with some extra) and TLR fights the way he fought in Mistborn, arrogantly, only using his allomancy and gold compounding to be immortal, then give him a couple coins... I think TLR wins that, even if Vasher has his awakened clothes the power of TLRs pushes will be too much for the cloth to handle.

 

Bottom line is more or less: Probably Lord Ruler, but Vasher do have a chance.

[Tarion]

He doesn't spend time aged to store in his Atiumminds, if he was really storing in them then he'd be a 1000 year old skeleton not a slightly older man, he has to during that time still be tapping like 980 years worth of youth still.

As for being less enamored with it I disagree greatly, it's used to provide the two abilities that really set him apart, longevity and infinite healing. Other than that he's mostly just a powerful Mistborn, scary sure but not something you'd call a sliver of god, with them he's an immortal who has lived for over a millennium.

EDIT: Misread your post.

 

If he's capable of tapping at different rates, it makes sense that he's capable of tapping quickly enough to undo the effects of losing his bracers - That's kind of the point of Feruchemy, that you can tap more quickly if you have to.

As long as he's not dead yet, it should be reversible

 

 

All he would have to do was spend the occasional bit of time aged to give himself Feruchemical storages to burn and stay young.

 

Also, Compounding isn't just Feruchemy.  It's the combination of Allomancy and Feruchemy.  And yes, he uses it for his age and his health, but he never actually uses the vast majority of the potential Feruchemical effects.  He uses compounded Gold and Atium to stay alive, sure, but to actually achieve things he uses emotional and physical Allomancy.  And he uses a lot of it.  He uses it to dominate the crowds, control his armies and Push on metals.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Tarion

[Voidus]

I think we need to set some rules here. If we have both at absolute maximum power (Vasher has the tenth hightening trice over, The Lord Ruler isnt being an arrogant idiot and is actually using all of his compounding) then I do think Lord Ruler would win unless Vasher figures out that he needs to rip out the bracelet. If this is an assassination attempt by Vasher then he could indeed just awaken Kredik Shaw and be over with it. I dont think TLR could do much about that.

 

If Vasher has... lets say the sixth hightening (The fifth with the divine breath, a bit over the fourth with some extra) and TLR fights the way he fought in Mistborn, arrogantly, only using his allomancy and gold compounding to be immortal, then give him a couple coins... I think TLR wins that, even if Vasher has his awakened clothes the power of TLRs pushes will be too much for the cloth to handle.

 

Bottom line is more or less: Probably Lord Ruler, but Vasher do have a chance.

I think that noticing that his palace is moving would be enough to prompt TLR to start tapping some Steel, he can blitz out of there before anything serious can happen.

That's really the problem, he's immortal so Vasher can't really kill him without knowing about the bracers and his feruchemy lets him get out of pretty much any trap Vasher could possibly set.

I'm just not sure it's possible to kill TLR without getting rid of his bracers and there's just no reason anyone would think to do that.

Assassination attempts are still the best option but even then you only really get enough time to pull off one attack and I can't really think of any that would guarantee he'd die. Maybe a few Knight Radiants could manage it, fire's probably the best bet since although they'd have no reason to think it would work their attacks might accidentally melt his bracers off.

 

Actually, that's not actually what the book says.  Sazed certainly thinks that he was ageing himself to store age in his Atiumminds.

 

 

 

Also, Compounding isn't just Feruchemy.  It's the combination of Allomancy and Feruchemy.  And yes, he uses it for his age and his health, but he never actually uses the vast majority of the potential Feruchemical effects.  He uses compounded Gold and Atium to stay alive, sure, but to actually achieve things he uses emotional and physical Allomancy.  And he uses a lot of it.  He uses it to dominate the crowds, control his armies and Push on metals.

Sazed was wrong, he'd just barely scratched the surface of compounding you can't really blame him. Compounders don't need to keep storing their trait and if he did then again why would he only be slightly older? Why doesn't he turn into a 1000 year old corpse?

 

 

QUESTION

Why did the Lord Ruler [in Mistborn] have to stay aged at times?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's when he was doing his rebuild. He didn't really have to, but he let himself. He has to recharge periodically, and then stays on a higher and higher burn over the thousand years. It gets harder and harder. The way the magic works—he doesn't have to stay aged.

Other than mass soothing crowds the only other times he uses Allomancy is to kill people, which happens all of twice. He also likely uses feruchemical rather than allomantic tin for his heartbeat-lie detection since he isn't blind, I'm pretty sure he doesn't sleep either so Wakefullness probably gets a bit of use.

The truth is he gets very, very little screentime, we can't really say what he uses or prefers to use.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Voidus

[Batemenace]

I think it comes down to preparation and whatever force multipliers each party brings to the actual fight. You stick TLR (with his metalminds and a belly full of allomantic metals) and Vasher (with a single breath) in a cage fight, TRL would probably come out on top. You start each one on opposite ends of a populated city and work their way towards each other, I think Vasher would come out on top due to the fact he seems better at guerrilla warfare and planning.

[Charononus]

I think it comes down to preparation and whatever force multipliers each party brings to the actual fight. You stick TLR (with his metalminds and a belly full of allomantic metals) and Vasher (with a single breath) in a cage fight, TRL would probably come out on top. You start each one on opposite ends of a populated city and work their way towards each other, I think Vasher would come out on top due to the fact he seems better at guerrilla warfare and planning.

This is pretty much what I think too.  Vasher seems too smart to ever get into a fair fight unless there was no other way.  Yeah killing the Lord Ruler would be hard,  that's established,  but between being very cosmere aware,  likely able to go and get a ton of breath if he needed it,  nightblood,  and his superior knowledge of awakening,  which allows him to mess with memories even,  I think he stands a decent chance as long as he isn't forced into a cage match.

[Charlie.x.3000]

If we are talking about Vasher at maximum potential, what about TLR? Let's pit TLR during his Ascension (When he held Preservation) against Vasher with all his breaths and Nightblood. I'm 99.9999999% sure TLR would win.

[Voidus]

If we are talking about Vasher at maximum potential, what about TLR? Let's pit TLR during his Ascension (When he held Preservation) against Vasher with all his breaths and Nightblood. I'm 99.9999999% sure TLR would win.

*Vaporizes Nalthis*

Yeah me too.

Then again I think the odds are the same even if he's not mid-Ascension, I'm just not sure how people think anyone could possibly beat someone who's not only insanely combat-strong but is also immortal. 

[natc]

Vaporizing Nalthis is inefficient.

Just move it into the sun.

[Voidus]

Vaporizing Nalthis is inefficient.

Just move it into the sun.

Or don't even bother with that, just stop it's orbital momentum and let gravity move it into the sun for you.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Or don't even bother with that, just stop it's orbital momentum and let gravity move it into the sun for you.

 

I wonder if Vasher could awaken Scadrial if he had enough breath...

[DreamEternal]

I wonder if Vasher could awaken Scadrial if he had enough breath...

I wonder what command would he give... And if it would end as badly as his last experiment...

[Batemenace]

And if it would end as badly as his last experiment...

I think you mean the word "wonderful". 

[DreamEternal]

I think you mean the word "wonderful".

No, I am quite sure I meant last. As far as I am aware, he was smart enough to not try again.

[Arrae]

I think if it was an assassination, Vasher would win. He gives the Lord Ruler a few Breaths and can stab him a few times with Nightblood, or pull out the atium bracers. The Lord Ruler would be too busy looking at the pretty colors to react.

 

On the other hand, in a pre-arranged duel, the Lord Ruler would win. All he has to do is burn some atium and it's over.

[Tarion]

Then again I think the odds are the same even if he's not mid-Ascension, I'm just not sure how people think anyone could possibly beat someone who's not only insanely combat-strong but is also immortal. 

Because someone did. 

 

As much as the Lord Ruler is clearly ridiculously powerful (I'd argue the most powerful non-Shard, with the possible exception of Hoid, to appear "on screen" in the Cosmere) Vin was able to beat him, after being a Mistborn for about a year.  Yes, she had the help of Preservation, but that hardly makes her unique - A large chunk of characters in the Cosmere have a shard or two powering them up.  Vasher is a Splinter of Endowment, to bring it back to the topic at hand. 

 

Now, you can argue that Vin's victory had a lot to do with luck, but that itself is a condemnation of the Lord Ruler - He knew of Chromium (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1011), so the very idea of being unlucky means that he wasn't using his abilities to the fullest.

And from there, it's a question of just how badly he was underutilising his abilities.  Obviously, I think he was underutilising them far more than some people on this topic.  If he was routinely Compounding Zinc, Steel, Chromium or Duralumin, I don't believe Vin would have had a chance.  But obviously she did.  My conclusion is that he's not using anywhere near to the full Metalborn powers.   

[Voidus]

Because someone did. 

 

As much as the Lord Ruler is clearly ridiculously powerful (I'd argue the most powerful non-Shard, with the possible exception of Hoid, to appear "on screen" in the Cosmere) Vin was able to beat him, after being a Mistborn for about a year.  Yes, she had the help of Preservation, but that hardly makes her unique - A large chunk of characters in the Cosmere have a shard or two powering them up.  Vasher is a Splinter of Endowment, to bring it back to the topic at hand. 

 

Now, you can argue that Vin's victory had a lot to do with luck, but that itself is a condemnation of the Lord Ruler - He knew of Chromium (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1011), so the very idea of being unlucky means that he wasn't using his abilities to the fullest.

And from there, it's a question of just how badly he was underutilising his abilities.  Obviously, I think he was underutilising them far more than some people on this topic.  If he was routinely Compounding Zinc, Steel, Chromium or Duralumin, I don't believe Vin would have had a chance.  But obviously she did.  My conclusion is that he's not using anywhere near to the full Metalborn powers.   

The prophesied one with the help of a Shard?

Not a great example to show that it's possible, unlike most characters Vin had direct help from Preservation, she had to access the entire power of a Shard to kill him.

Well there's a few things on Chromium to point out, one it wouldn't exactly have been easy for him to obtain, two he didn't really need it, and three that obviously if he had used it then the entire story would have been impossible.

He wouldn't be using them all the time but he clearly appreciated their usefulness (Plenty of Inquisitors had Feruchemical steel spikes) and I just cannot possibly imagine why he wouldn't keep stores of them. Again Vin pulled off one insanely lucky shot that she needed a lot of background information, the help of a Shard,intimate knowledge and the use of Malatium to pull off, I don't see what anything other than Chromium would have done to change that.

[Tarion]

Did Inquisitors have Feruchemical steel before Ruin started "upgrading" them?  I thought that was one of the extra spikes we only saw in Hero of Ages.

 

As for Vin having the help of a Shard - Literally all it did was give her an additional bit of strength.  She was still far weaker, Allomantically, than the Lord Ruler.  The big help is strengthening her Allomantic steel so that she can (just) effect metals inside the Lord Ruler (and supplementing her empty metal supplies).  He's running around with that strength full time and he still lost.  

 

The fact that the Lord Ruler, while fighting a Mistborn and a rogue Inquisitor, having had his loyal Inquisitors destroyed and his city in uprising, wasn't using Feruchemical steel or Feruchemical zinc, which would have given him the reaction times to stop Vin stealing his bracers, or Feruchemical duralumin, which would have made everyone love him too much to hurt him, shows that the Lord Ruler didn't routinely use them.  This was probably the most dangerous situation he's faced in a couple of hundreds of years, and he didn't bother using his full abilities.  If he didn't then, I doubt he would against Vasher, because he simply isn't Cosmere aware enough to understand the threat that Nightblood, or Breath might pose to him.  

 

And literally everything Vin used, apart from Malatium, would be available to Vasher.  It's why I stressed his Cosmere and Investiture awareness.  Out of more or less every character (other than Hoid) he's the best suited for understanding the Lord Ruler's immortality, and finding the way to defeat it.  

Edited November 2, 2015 by Tarion

[DreamEternal]

I suspect TLR only died because he saw Vin burning the mists, and let himself be defeated. Look, his only goal was making sure Ruin never escaped, so he orobably saw himself as a champion of Preservation. If he saw Preservation wanted Vin to win, he would probably be so afraid and confused he would just stop fighting. Plus, he was tired of being an Immortal tyrant, so he probably just let himself be defeated. His final speech came after he started to regret his suicide-by-mistborn, thinking he damned the world.

[Voidus]

Did Inquisitors have Feruchemical steel before Ruin started "upgrading" them?  I thought that was one of the extra spikes we only saw in Hero of Ages.

 

As for Vin having the help of a Shard - Literally all it did was give her an additional bit of strength.  She was still far weaker, Allomantically, than the Lord Ruler.  The big help is strengthening her Allomantic steel so that she can (just) effect metals inside the Lord Ruler (and supplementing her empty metal supplies).  He's running around with that strength full time and he still lost.  

 

The fact that the Lord Ruler, while fighting a Mistborn and a rogue Inquisitor, having had his loyal Inquisitors destroyed and his city in uprising, wasn't using Feruchemical steel or Feruchemical zinc, which would have given him the reaction times to stop Vin stealing his bracers, or Feruchemical duralumin, which would have made everyone love him too much to hurt him, shows that the Lord Ruler didn't routinely use them.  This was probably the most dangerous situation he's faced in a couple of hundreds of years, and he didn't bother using his full abilities.  If he didn't then, I doubt he would against Vasher, because he simply isn't Cosmere aware enough to understand the threat that Nightblood, or Breath might pose to him.  

 

And literally everything Vin used, apart from Malatium, would be available to Vasher.  It's why I stressed his Cosmere and Investiture awareness.  Out of more or less every character (other than Hoid) he's the best suited for understanding the Lord Ruler's immortality, and finding the way to defeat it.  

He didn't need reaction time to stop Vin, he'd just a short while ago murdered her teacher with less difficulty than he'd have swatting a fly, his far less powerful minions had subdued and captured her with ease and he was completely dominating her the entire fight right up until a Shard suddenly decided to give her a power up at the same time she suddenly realized his one weakness, at what point exactly should he have been fearing her enough to bother tapping anything? After she pulled the bracers off him? Yes he should have, he also should have used pewter, Iron or pretty much any of his astonishingly powerful allomantic abilities, he didn't, partially because of plot, partially I'm sure because he'd realized he'd just been killed and was understandably surprised and partially because it probably wouldn't have made a difference, he was dead the second his bracers came off.

Duralumin might make everyone love him but it goes both ways, he wouldn't be able to run the skaa into the ground if he was compounding Duralumin all the time.

And again I'm still not even sure that Nightblood or Breath would pose any sort of threat to him at all so I think he'd be right to do that, the only way that you can kill him is to remove his bracers, something Vasher has neither the means nor the motive to do.

 

Allomantic iron? Nope. Mists? Nope. Alendi's journal? Nope. Direct help from a Shard? Nope.

I'm failing to see a single thing she had that he also has.

[Tarion]

More generally, the ability to remove his bracers - Awakened cloth does it just as well as Iron.  Direct help from a Shard - He's living, breathing, direct help from a Shard in himself.  That's what a Returned is.  Alendi's Journal - I'm not sure that's actually relevant to working out how the Lord Ruler was making himself immortal, for someone who's Cosmere/Investiture savvy. It requires a basic understanding of Feruchemy and Allomancy, yes, but I think that's within Vasher's reach - He's been able to develop some knowledge of the magic systems of two entirely separate planets.  

 

He didn't need reaction time to stop Vin, he'd just a short while ago murdered her teacher with less difficulty than he'd have swatting a fly, his far less powerful minions had subdued and captured her with ease and he was completely dominating her the entire fight right up until a Shard suddenly decided to give her a power up at the same time she suddenly realized his one weakness, at what point exactly should he have been fearing her enough to bother tapping anything?

Which is kind of my point - To all outward appearances, Vin using her Mistborn powers is far more dangerous than Vasher.  And he still didn't bother tapping anything then.  

 

If he waited until it was similarly too late and got hit with Nightblood, I think he might be in trouble.  It has a tendency to destroy whole things, and I'm not sure that's something that Feruchemy can protect against - it takes too long.  Much like getting hit by a Shardblade, dead is dead.  

[natc]

You know, going on a tangent here, TLR probably isn't that great of a fighter. All the superpowered mistborn people who were around when he conquered everything post-Ascension worked for him, plus he's that powerful. Nobody can really stop him back then, I'm sure. He didn't even have the atium bracer weakness to worry about back then (loses some power, likely, but he won't die from old age immediately or anything), and could heal from almost anything too, nothing could defeat him. Before then, he was a not a warrior. He should've lacked sufficient opportunity to actually develop his combat experience, no?

That might be why he wasn't reacting to losing his bracers (something very vital to him) in a fight as fast as he could have, he legitimately did not comprehend the fact that he had an exploitatable weakness and didn't take the fight seriously. I'm sure he knows what would happen, but there's a difference between that and understanding the consequences, putting two and two together, and taking measures against it. Vin sends bracers (somewhat unexpected from a mistborn of that era really. They shouldn't be strong enough to bypass the resistance of blood) put window and he's basically going "Wait, what jus- oh crap" and staring in shock instead of going after it while he still could.

So I can imagine that, despite his raw power, TLR probably knows little in the usage of allomancy beyond brute force, and can probably be outsmarted by anyone with some sort of investiture of their own to at least level the playing field enough to not get curbstomped in 0 seconds flat. TLR does not understand awakening either. There are things Vasher can do against him.

Of course, Serious TLR will just Quicksilver the poor guy while reading obligator reports inbetween lunches sipping tea or something, but I'm not sure if he gets serious about anything with that dominance/superiority complex he seems to have. Ah, the Gilgamesh dilemma of power levels.

[Voidus]

More generally, the ability to remove his bracers - Awakened cloth does it just as well as Iron.  Direct help from a Shard - He's living, breathing, direct help from a Shard in himself.  That's what a Returned is.  Alendi's Journal - I'm not sure that's actually relevant to working out how the Lord Ruler was making himself immortal, for someone who's Cosmere/Investiture savvy. It requires a basic understanding of Feruchemy and Allomancy, yes, but I think that's within Vasher's reach - He's been able to develop some knowledge of the magic systems of two entirely separate planets.  

 

 

 

Which is kind of my point - To all outward appearances, Vin using her Mistborn powers is far more dangerous than Vasher.  And he still didn't bother tapping anything then.  

 

If he waited until it was similarly too late and got hit with Nightblood, I think he might be in trouble.  It has a tendency to destroy whole things, and I'm not sure that's something that Feruchemy can protect against - it takes too long.  Much like getting hit by a Shardblade, dead is dead.  

Iron is completely invisible and when powered by the mists could exert a lot of force. Cloth is visible, preventable, corporeal and overall less strong.

A Returned contains a Splinter, there's little evidence that Endowment is directly interested them in any way beyond granting them powers.

It requires understanding that TLR is a feruchemist, as you said he almost never uses any flashy feruchemical powers and the ones he does use are so far beyond normal feruchemy as to be indistinguishable. Keepers didn't realize what he was doing for a thousand years and they're not only vastly more experienced with both Allomancy and Feruchemy than Vasher is they have far more time and motive to investigate how the Lord Ruler does what he does.

Vin needed a journal, malatium, deep connections to both Feruchemists and Allomancers and to have tried the exact same experiment herself earlier to realize what he'd done.

Not to mention that his bracers weren't even visible until after Marsh had ripped off his robe to try and pull out spikes.

We know someone who healed from getting hit by a Shardblade with nothing but Stormlight, TLR has survived being burned alive and decapitated, pretty sure his healing can keep up with anything Vasher throws at him.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Voidus

[An evil 545lighteyes]

Why is everyone ignoring Nightblood's mind control? TLR is the kind of person to use it to exploit others. So what is keeping Nightblood from killing him.

[Voidus]

Why is everyone ignoring Nightblood's mind control? TLR is the kind of person to use it to exploit others. So what is keeping Nightblood from killing him.

TLR is insanely invested, used to resisting mind control, is not guaranteed to be considered evil and even if all that were true there's no reason to think Nightblood would be able to actually kill him, maybe it could just keep him standing there stabbing himself in the stomach all day but to do this Vasher would have to be giving one of the most powerful people in the cosmere one of the most powerful weapons in the cosmere, if things went wrong they would go really wrong.