Nohadon And Urithiru

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

 

That was my initial thought too that Urithuru was moved after Nohadon walked there and I think it is a possibility. This paragraph made me think it had possible been moved a few times.

 

 

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 547). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

The only reason I think it is not the case is there are a couple of things that elude to traveling to Urithuru via Oathgates. Bolding mine.

 

 

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 513). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 817). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Of course the "direct method" could mean by way of horse instead of walking but that seems like it would have been described as the easy method not direct. 

 

 

To me, that there is a "direct method", being the Oathgates almost assuredly, definitely implies that there is an "indirect method" like feet of some sort. It may just be that there is a gate at the bottom of the city nearer the mountain passes that no one has discovered yet since they've only just arrived en masse. 

[Patrick Star]

Guys, I really don't get why you're all discrediting my perfectly viable horse theory

 

[Lirins hand]

Because it's just a horse!  Now, if it was a Ryshadium, however ......

[Patrick Star]

Because it's just a horse!  Now, if it was a Ryshadium, however ......

 

But Nohadon would instantly be recognizable riding a Ryshadium.  He HAD to have ridden a normal horse!  One that a peasant would have to use.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Patrick Star

[Unhinged]

My other thought is that in a place where one force can shatter an entire plain, it is conceivable that a similar force could push up a mountain under a city.  Maybe it wasn't always on top of a mountain, or at least as inaccessible a one as it is now.

 

Don't forget that TLR was able to flatten a mountain range when he held a shard. Unless Honor is far weaker than Ruin I think it would be pretty easy for him to push one up.

[hoser]

Now why would anyone discredit a horse theory?

Couldn’t I have just taken the simple, easy, and common route to the holy city?’”

“Exactly,” Sadeas interjected. “He could at the very least have ridden a horse!”

“‘ For my answer,’” Dalinar quoted, “‘ I removed my sandals and proffered my callused feet. ...'"

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 818). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Or perhaps it is a mistranslation.  He really showed the horse's worn hoof, or shoes.  Or maybe he really showed the chafed inside of his thighs. 

We are talking about the abilities of a Radiant (Nohadon, with his leadership abilities, could be a Windrunner with Gravity and Adhesion or a Bondsmith with Adhesion) and the power of a Shard, or ten orders of nascent Radiants.  There are infinite solutions.  When we discount parts of what we are told, we add more dimensions of the infinite solutions. 

We won't really know until we are told and no solution is provably correct. 

• It could be that Nohadon founded the Radiants and Ishar got credit. 
• It could be that Ishar constrained the spren before leaving and Urithiru was built during Nohadon's lifetime.  He could have walked to the base of the mountain and used his Radiant abilities to get to the Oathgate.   I wouldn't call it lying if he walked hundreds of miles and effectively took an elevator to get to the top. 
• There could have been multiple people credited with being Nohadon. 
• Oral narratives could have been written over decades, then compiled over centuries before a bureaucracy canonized a version. 
• There are mountains around, but rather than build on top of an existing mountain, they could have built Urithiru in a flat place in the middle of a mountain range then pushed yet another mountain up underneath it. 

These theories can be as complex as we want, and none of them will be demonstrably wrong.  As long as there is a theory that is compatible with the information that we are given, I will stick with that. 

[Kelek's Breath]

He's a Bondsmith.  He walked up the mountain.

 

Just my guess.  Brandon did RAFO somebody who asked whether Nohadon was a Bondsmith.

 

Ok. I am correcting myself, and my belief about the gate situation.

 

 

(from Ch. 87, WoR)

Shallan stood at the front gates of Urithiru, looking up (at the tower), trying to comprehend.

Apparently, the Gates of Urithiru, are actually the gates of the Tower of Urithiru. I had been thinking that the Oathgates would have been included inside the complex, because I assumed that Urithiru was the entire complex. I guess Urithiru refers specifically to the Tower and not the surroundings (Oathgate plateau, mountain).

It seems Patrick Star's idea that either Nohadon is a Bondsmith and used his suction cup powers (insert picture of Tom Cruise with suction cups on skyscrapper) or he used a horse are correct.

 

Also, there is an issue with the existence of Oathgates before the forming of K.R., and that is that they are all (as far as we can tell)in the capital cities of the Silver Kingdoms, Kingdoms that came into existence (according to lore) after the K.R were formed. Remember in the vision, Nohadon starts naming kingdoms that were destroyed and Dalinar is looking at him dumb, because he doesn't know any of the places? The Silver Kingdoms were all known (we even have a map in the books of them). This may be a chicken or egg situation: which came first, the Oathgates and then the Silver Kingdoms grew around them or the Silver Kingdoms and the Oathgates were placed in their capitals.

[Patrick Star]

It seems Patrick Star's idea that either Nohadon is a Bondsmith and used his suction cup powers (insert picture of Tom Cruise with suction cups on skyscrapper) or he used a horse are correct.

 

I'm kidding about the horse.  I just love doing that in Skyrim.  Either way, picture obliged.

 

[Kelek's Breath]

Upvote for finding the picture.

 

These theories can be as complex as we want, and none of them will be demonstrably wrong.  As long as there is a theory that is compatible with the information that we are given, I will stick with that. 

 

To your point, I guess what we know thus far about Nohadon is that he was the author of the in-world Way of Kings, a book that the Radiants used as their guide book. The visions are given to Dalinar from Honor via the Stormfather; in the visions Tanavast tells Dalinar to read the book, so we can guess that in the vision is the true Nohadon (whose book Tanavast is shamelesly promoting).

The various theories pop up depending on which way you explain the possible contradictions between the content of his book and what other sources tell us about the pre-recreance Roshar. 

I take the stance that the evidence points that Nohadon lived through multiple Desolations and was around when Ishar forced the K.R. to be founded, but this was at a later time than the vision shows.

[StormingTexan]

Ok. I am correcting myself, and my belief about the gate situation.

 

Apparently, the Gates of Urithiru, are actually the gates of the Tower of Urithiru. I had been thinking that the Oathgates would have been included inside the complex, because I assumed that Urithiru was the entire complex. I guess Urithiru refers specifically to the Tower and not the surroundings (Oathgate plateau, mountain).

It seems Patrick Star's idea that either Nohadon is a Bondsmith and used his suction cup powers (insert picture of Tom Cruise with suction cups on skyscrapper) or he used a horse are correct.

 

 

 

Except Shallan says this.

 

Shallan stepped up to one edge of the stone field. A sheer drop. If Nohadon really had walked to this city, as The Way of Kings claimed, then his path would have included scaling cliff faces.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 1049). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

 

So although she could be at the gates looking up at the tower the gates are probably still inaccessible to the ground or she wouldn't have said this. She has been to the gates yet still has not found a way to leave besides the Oathgates. 

 

 

I think I am focusing too much on how he got the the gate and it is probably simple he used surgebinding. We have already seen Szeth go there so it is completely possible he walked all the way (to be as a peasant) then used surgebinding to get to the gate. I'm overthinking this. The most important part of this is he says his family took the direct method implying Oathgates so then we go back to who built those? I still think it was the Heralds or Honnor and it makes sense to build those to shuffle around people quickly during desolations. But no Heralds should have been around to operate them during the time Nohadon walked to Urithiru unless it was during a desolation (seems like Haradon would have better stuff to do than walk to  Urithiru during a desolation) and yet his family used them (of course this is just an assumption) and were waiting on his arrival. So that leaves the KR to run them, meaning in between the vision and when he walked to Urithiru the KR was up and running. It would have had to span at least one more desolation although I would think more than one so Ishar can officially form the KR. So easiest answer is Nohadon lived a really long time. Or there are some falsities lost in translation and Nohadon never actually walked there. 

 

 

[natc]

Who's to say the Oathgates always had the same lock mechanism?

[Lirins hand]

At the end of their use, the KR were in charge of running them but that doesn't mean they always were.  "In the beginning" couldn't any surgebinder have run an oathgate by virtue of their nahel bond?  I thought it only took a live spren to be the "key", not necessarily a KR-oath bound spren?

 

Just to tie into other threads here - what if the oathgates are supposed to only be "emergency exits"?  Maybe the reason the price to travel by oathgate was expensive was to discourage their frivolous use?  It sounds from the complaints that people are using the oathgates for regular business as opposed to emergencies.  If too much surgebinding causes an imbalance, and the oathgates use a lot of stormlight, their overuse could also be part of the Recreance.  No more surgebinders, no more oathgate use.

 

This could also result in the "KR betrayed us!" theme:  No more oathgate use, commerce takes a huge hit, causing financial ruin across the nations, probably including food issues.

[dvoraen]

And to throw in something else into the mix:  If Nohadon really had walked to Urithiru, who's to say he didn't have a Gravitation fabrial (emulating a Windrunner Lashing) to literally walk up the cliff, because the face of it was down?  It's a simple thing that could easily explain both the fact he had calloused feet (from his long travel plus stone traversal), in addition to 'walking to' Urithiru.  In other words, he knew where it was geographically, because the maps Pattern was deducing the text on, were clear that Nohadon-Bajerden wanted the world cartographed.

[hoser]

 

Except ...So that leaves the KR to run them, meaning in between the vision and when he walked to Urithiru the KR was up and running. It would have had to span at least one more desolation although I would think more than one so Ishar can officially form the KR. So easiest answer is Nohadon lived a really long time. Or there are some falsities lost in translation and Nohadon never actually walked there. 

I feel like a broken record, so I must be missing something. 

I see multiple solutions wherein Nohadon's life does not have to span multiple Desolations. 

1. Ishar hasn't left by the time the Dalinar vision occurs.  Ishar does his thing before returning to be tortured. 
2. Ishar does his spren thing while being tortured or instructs someone on what to do
3. Ishar is falsely credited with what someone else did ("Taln" giving Ishar credit argues against this, so I don't like this one). 

Desolations are described as surprising and also wreak such great havoc that they would need multiple generations to recover from (9 out of 10 dead?), so I don't see multiple of them fitting in a normal lifetime.  If Nohadon lives for an unreasonably long time, then he is invested, and the Knights probably formed, so there is no need for him to live a long time. 

This is not to say that Nohadon's life could not have spanned multiple Desolations, but just that it is one of several possibilities.

Edited April 1, 2015 by hoser

[StormingTexan]

That is very true it is very possible the gates were only operated by KR later and normal surge binders (or perhaps the nobility in the Silver Kingdoms) ran them before. That takes away a lot of the mystery. I think Brandon's RAFO about Nohadon being a bondsmith at least hints he was a surgebinder and would explain getting to the gate. 

[Lirins hand]

I'm confused how the nobility would run them, unless they were surge binders as well.  The dependent factor seems to be the spren bond, so it would have to be a surge binder (pre-oaths imposed) or KR (post-oaths imposed).  Or am I missing something?   (entirely possible - happens all the time)

 

side question - do we have any time frame for how long surge binders were in existence before the oaths were imposed on them?  I don't remember any, so perhaps they went through multiple desolations before the KR structure was imposed.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Lirins hand

[StormingTexan]

When I said nobility I do not necessarily mean the king himself but maybe one of his surgebinders possible. I just think they would have had to have some kind of organization to it. Meaning any old surgebinder couldn't just walk up and use the Oathgate. The Oathgates were placed in one of each f the kingdoms so I think it is a possibility the nobility ran them at least monitoring their use. 

[hoser]

Implicit in the KR vision is that pre-KR, surgebinders are the kings.  If they don't start out as kings, that can easily be fixed by a Surgebinder.  As we know, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.  So, pre-KR, the idea of noble Surgebinders serving non-surgebinding kings doesn't seem likely to be common (see Alakavish).  I think Oathgates goes with stable kingdoms, KR and Urithiru.  A virtuous cycle, if you will.

Edited April 1, 2015 by hoser

[Kelek's Breath]

That is very true it is very possible the gates were only operated by KR later and normal surge binders (or perhaps the nobility in the Silver Kingdoms) ran them before.

 

I am hesitant to say that they existed pre-K.R., because of what 'vision Nohadon' believes, that even though a Desolation is finished and great catastrophe has befallen on them, he will find it hard to convince other kings not to look to their own advantage (meaning the other kings will go on a conquering spree), If this is the case, without someone policing the gates (K.R.), would any king think it a good idea to allow access to their kingdoms through the Oathgates? Do you think that any human world leader would have said "Hitler/Genghis Khan/Alexander the Great/Xerxes are nice guys. Why not share a gate to our holy city so we can travel quickly between our kingdoms?"

 

Edit: Beaten to the punch by hoser's comment above.

 

Ishar hasn't left by the time the Dalinar vision occurs.  Ishar does his thing before returning to be tortured. 

 

Has anyone asked if there is a way that everyone on Roshar knows the Desolation has ended? Something like a cannon going off, a la Hunger games?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[dvoraen]

I am hesitant to say that they existed pre-K.R., because of what 'vision Nohadon' believes, that even though a Desolation is finished and great catastrophe has befallen on them, he will find it hard to convince other kings not to look to their own advantage (meaning the other kings will go on a conquering spree), If this is the case, without someone policing the gates (K.R.), would any king think it a good idea to allow access to their kingdoms through the Oathgates? Do you think that any human world leader would have said "Hitler/Genghis Khan/Alexander the Great/Xerxes are nice guys. Why not share a gate to our holy city so we can travel quickly between our kingdoms?"

 

Edit: Beaten to the punch by hoser's comment above.

 

 

Has anyone asked if there is a way that everyone on Roshar knows the Desolation has ended? Something like a cannon going off, a la Hunger games?

I'll wager the answer is word-of-mouth from the Heralds, previously (implied to be the case for Aharietiam).  They seemed to know when they were supposed to go back, so there's clearly a condition for success/winning that they know.

[StormingTexan]

I am hesitant to say that they existed pre-K.R., because of what 'vision Nohadon' believes, that even though a Desolation is finished and great catastrophe has befallen on them, he will find it hard to convince other kings not to look to their own advantage (meaning the other kings will go on a conquering spree), If this is the case, without someone policing the gates (K.R.), would any king think it a good idea to allow access to their kingdoms through the Oathgates? Do you think that any human world leader would have said "Hitler/Genghis Khan/Alexander the Great/Xerxes are nice guys. Why not share a gate to our holy city so we can travel quickly between our kingdoms?"

 

Edit: Beaten to the punch by hoser's comment above.

 

 

 

Very true but I am just trying to explain the use of the Oathgates (not by the KR) at the time Nohadon walks to Urithiru and he presumable united the kingdoms (although not sure that is really confirmed he accomplished) so this could have been while the Kingdoms are united similar to present day. 

 

Also Jasnah said this and if it is correct then the kings probably used the Oathgates of course that does not specify before or after KR.

 

“Urithiru was said to be the center of the Silver Kingdoms, a city that held ten thrones, one for each king. It was the most majestic, most amazing, most important city in all the world.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 630). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2015 by StormingTexan

[Kelek's Breath]

Ishar does his spren thing while being tortured or instructs someone on what to do

 

This would be a good question to ask Mr. Sanderson at a signing.

Can the Heralds have contact with the "outside" or pass instructions while in the place they are being tortured?

Can they at least have contact with spren while there?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[dvoraen]

Implicit in the KR vision is that pre-KR, surgebinders are the kings.  If they don't start out as kings, that can easily be fixed by a Surgebinder.  As we know, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.  So, pre-KR, the idea of noble Surgebinders serving non-surgebinding kings doesn't seem likely to be common (see Alakavish).  I think Oathgates goes with stable kingdoms, KR and Urithiru.  A virtuous cycle, if you will.

I don't see how Surgebinders, pre-KR, were necessarily royalty.  For one, we know very little of the state of the world when Nohadon was alive, let alone how many kingdoms even existed then.  I think it's pretty clear the Silver Kingdoms came about after his time.  Warlords who thought themselves rulers, and/or were Surgebinders, could very well be the situation as with Alakavish.  I could easily see a Surgebinder with a Releaser's powers be a quick way to cause mischief.  I don't include Skybreakers, despite Gravitation+Division, on account of the fact that they'd hypothetically have to attract a highspren to bond, which seems counterproductive to becoming a warmongering warlord/"ruler".

Edited April 2, 2015 by dvoraen

[hoser]

I don't see how Surgebinders, pre-KR, were necessarily royalty.  For one, we know very little of the state of the world when Nohadon was alive, let alone how many kingdoms even existed then.  I think it's pretty clear the Silver Kingdoms came about after his time.  Warlords who thought themselves rulers, and/or were Surgebinders, could very well be the situation as with Alakavish.  I could easily see a Surgebinder with a Releaser's powers be a quick way to cause mischief.  I don't include Skybreakers, despite Gravitation+Division, on account of the fact that they'd hypothetically have to attract a highspren to bond, which seems counterproductive to becoming a warmongering warlord/"ruler".

Okay, call me a cynic then.  For me, the difference between royalty and warlord is a generation.  I think the current lighteyes got in command by being the people with the Shardblades after the Radiants left, then muscled the ardents and everybody else into rationalizing it.  If you want to believe that Surgebinders happily served much less powerful royalty without KR to enforce order, I can't prove you wrong. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by hoser

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Okay, call me a cynic then.  For me, the difference between royalty and warlord is a generation.  I think the current lighteyes got in command by being the people with the Shardblades after the Radiants left, then muscled the ardents and everybody else into rationalizing it.  If you want to believe that Surgebinders happily served much less powerful royalty without KR to enforce order, I can't prove you wrong. 

 

Cynic!

 

I think you are definitely right on the lighteyes ruling by being those with shards and/or others who had light eyes naturally after the Recreance. I don't know how much they'd have to muscle the religious establishment if at all since the Radiants all had lighteyes by nature of their spren bond presumably the Heralds did at least while they were surgebinding (like Szeth). 

 

As to pre-KR Surgebinders, I do think you are being a bit cynical in saying that all rulers pre-KR were Surgebinders as a generalization. I'm sure that there were some, and I know we have textual evidence in Dalinar's visions for one/some trying to rule because they were Surgebinders. But I'm also just as sure that there were some who preferred to advise/guard non-Surgebinder rulers. In the same way that people to whom Highprinces loan/give their Shards to act on their behalf, do just that rather than murdering the highprince and taking the "throne" (though again I'm sure that has happened as well in the past too).