Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance

[Kobold King he/him]

Probably so that these two chapters match up (quotes taken from original release):

Chapter 10: Father carried Shallan over the body of a woman in white.

Chapter 88: Shallan walked to the other corpse, the one facedown in the beautiful dress of blue and gold.

 

Would you guys hate me if I linked to this picture?

[Eilemelie]

Would you guys hate me if I linked to this picture?

Allow me to quote myself at you:

And just when I thought I'd never have to hear about that again... *sigh*

[Kobold King he/him]

Allow me to quote myself at you:

 

...Whoops. This is what happens when I skim a topic.

 

Have as sympathy upvote in apology for what I've put you through.

[Eilemelie]

It's fine. I was mostly joking in the original post anyway.

Edit: Sympathy upvote appreciated though.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Eilemelie

[king of nowhere]

Probably so that these two chapters match up (quotes taken from original release):

Chapter 10: Father carried Shallan over the body of a woman in white.

Chapter 88: Shallan walked to the other corpse, the one facedown in the beautiful dress of blue and gold.

So what? it always was the same dress, just under a different light

 

Ok, back to topic: we don't know the reason brandon changed the scene. Some people argued that it should have made him look morally better, and it failed; i also agree that it does not make kaladin look better, but that does not mean the change failed because we don't know it was supposed to make  him look better. it probably wasn't.

Brandon shows complex moral dilemmas in his books (I love jasnah's lesson in applied phylosophy), he wouldn't just take the naive idealistic view that sparing the villain is the heroic thing to do and put it there to make his characters look better. also he rarely writes black or white characters, there's the occasional one but they all have shades, so it would not make sense that he would suddenly try to make his main character look like the paladin from a child educational tale.

So, we cannot know if the change was succesful until we know what was aimed at. which we don't, unless I missed something in the post. I'd say we should wait at least until after book 3 before we can guess.

I also agree that it seems a silly change; what is gained? kaladin stabbed szeth as part of a fight, he had no idea szeth would not parry, and no one would have said anything if he just completed the stab before realizing it - or realized it but thought it was some kind of feint.

kaladin was also right in chasing the blade over szeth; each of those blades is worth hundreds of men in a  battlefield, and humankind will need every resource it can muster to face the desolation. plus, being one of the original honorblades, it is reasonable that it can be used as a macguffin.The only criticism for it was that if kaladin wanted to make the "morally right" decision of sparing szeth, then letting him fall afterwards is hypocrite; but we don't know the reasons kaladin had for sparing szeth, so it needs not be a conflict. If it was, it could be intended as such.

But yeah, in general I agree that the change doesn't seem to make any real difference, moral-wise, on the characters. And yet brandon decided it was important enough to retcon, something he's never done before. HE's certainly aware that people won't like retcons. So he must have some real good reason for doing it. Something we can't yet figure out.

It's like when a chessmaster apparently put a piece under attack. Yes, it may certainly be a blunder, but it is much more likely that he has seen everything and he has a winning combination if you try to take advantage of the apparent mistake. Don't jump to conclusions before careful analysis.

 

Also, as I said previously, I'm also not happy that he retconned a scene, but it's the first time he does that in a lot of books, I'm willing to give him some credit.

 

P.S. If you play against a chessmaster, I still suggest playing like he made a blunder. probably he's seen everything and you will lose, but if you can't see how he will win and he can then he is the stronger player and he will win anyway, so you better chance is to jump at the opportunity and hope it actually was a blunder. I won some games i totally deserved to lose against weaker players because they assumed my mistakes were clever traps. And I lost some games against stronger people for taking obvious baits, but I was going to lose those games anyway, and I think if they can bait me and I cannot see the trick even after they placed the bait, then they deserved to win.

[Moogle]

I don't think Kaladin should have, let alone had any moral obligation, to invalidate the first choice Szeth made on his own free will in seven or so years. Szeth didn't accidentally ran out of stormlight, he purposely released his bond midair knowing full well he would fall to his death. I think it would have been selfish for Kaladin to save Szeth using 'protecting' as an excuse while taking away Szeth's free will. The protective part of Kaladin's character fits the catching of the Honorblade that anyone could use to become the next mass murderer.

 

Kaladin wasn't sure he'd survive the clashing storms below, so Lashing Szeth down wouldn't have worked. What, was Kal supposed to awkwardly hold him tight while Szeth was trying to jump to his death? 

 

I'm not sure Szeth was trying to commit suicide. The Shin are very particular about their weapons, to the point where it's a myth that anyone who takes up a sword must become a low-status guard. Szeth holding onto his weapon when he no longer has to goes against what his culture values. It is stupid to do that above a highstorm and expect to live, but he may have done it in a sudden burst of repulsion. He hated his Blade, after all, and is constantly cursing it throughout WoK. He was also mildly insane at the time.

 

And when Szeth was revived, he did decide against suicide. Nalan offered him death.

 

So on the whole, I think it would have been a good idea for Kaladin to Lash Szeth in midair before going to grab his Honorblade. If Szeth really wants to commit suicide, he can do it later after he's had a few minutes to get a handle on his new situation. As it was, Szeth was not thinking straight, and giving him at least a few minutes to get his on straight would be the least Kaladin could do.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

I'm not sure Szeth was trying to commit suicide. The Shin are very particular about their weapons, to the point where it's a myth that anyone who takes up a sword must become a low-status guard. Szeth holding onto his weapon when he no longer has to goes against what his culture values. It is stupid to do that above a highstorm and expect to live, but he may have done it in a sudden burst of repulsion. He hated his Blade, after all, and is constantly cursing it throughout WoK. He was also mildly insane at the time.

 

And when Szeth was revived, he did decide against suicide. Nalan offered him death.

 

So on the whole, I think it would have been a good idea for Kaladin to Lash Szeth in midair before going to grab his Honorblade. If Szeth really wants to commit suicide, he can do it later after he's had a few minutes to get a handle on his new situation. As it was, Szeth was not thinking straight, and giving him at least a few minutes to get his on straight would be the least Kaladin could do.

 

It took some persuading on Nale's side to dissuade Szeth, who clearly wished he was dead at first.

 

I don't think Lashing Szeth would have worked, he would just fall slowly into two colliding storms that were throwing stones hundreds of feet in the air - something I don't believe he would have survived. So Kal would be forced to hold both Szeth and the Honorblade. And I don't see Szeth being happy or content to be saved. He screamed at Nalan for resurrecting him; imagine Szeth's reaction midair while Kal is trying to navigate through the storm holding him and catch the Honorblade - that could have ended poorly for both of them.

 

But let's say Kaladin somehow grabbed Szeth and saved him - what does he do with him? Why save him from fall and let him throw himself in a chasm a few minutes later? How anti-climatic would that be? So Kal would have to be consistent and persuade Szeth to live. OK, Szeth decided to live. Now what? Kal couldn't just leave him on the Shattered Plains as that would be death. To bring him to Urithiru would essentially be a death sentence since pardoning Szeth would be illogical and against the wishes of whole kingdoms. He can't just be pardoned because his people have this weird oathstone thingy going on. Plot-wise, saving Szeth's life would have created a ton of unnecessary trouble.

 

edit; In-world (since I pulled the plot-wise card, it's only fair to write about this, too) Kal had no reason to think Szeth released the bond without considering he's hundreds of feet in the air. Kal had a falling mass murderer who no longer presented a threat to those Kal was sworn to protect, and a dangerous weapon that could lead to the deaths of people Kal loves if it fell into the wrong hands. So going after the Honorblade makes perfect sense. Saving Szeth sounds Edgedancer-ish, but isn't required by what we've seen from the WR's philosophy, and there really isn't a good reason to save the crazy mass murderer who just killed two of your friends from falling to his death that the said mass murderer apparently chose.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

...

 

I feel you're overstating Nale's persuasion, but that's just my opinion. He was offering Szeth death, and seemed perfectly content to kill him if Szeth wished. Szeth seemed to come to the argument that he should live on his own.

 

I feel like Kaladin could just give Szeth a weak Lashing upwards, and then he'd be okay. You have a point that it may be like trying to save a drowning person, but I don't know - there's no need for constant contact between Kaladin and Szeth, and once Szeth has been given a Lashing trajectory, he can't do anything to stop it.

 

Szeth didn't really scream at Nale as far as I can see - he was just shocked that he was alive, and he thought he was alone. He was very calm after that. In a similar way, I could see Szeth being an easy enough captive for Kaladin.

 

As to Szeth throwing himself in a chasm, I really don't think he would, because I don't think it took any persuasion at all on Nalan's part to get him to avoid it.

 

Kal could bring him to Urithiru. Yes, Szeth would be killed, but at the very least Szeth has important information regarding Taravangian. Kaladin never once thinks about who hired Szeth, despite Szeth saying he had orders. He's an assassin, and Kaladin has a complete lack of curiosity about who sent him. I find this to be a glaring failure on Kaladin's part.

 

I am not sympathetic to arguments about the plot demanding Szeth go free. I don't like seeing railroad tracks for characters act in ways just because the plot demands it. WoR had a few sections that were like that, and it left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

Kal doesn't know the Honorblade is dangerous. Kal does know Szeth is tortured about what he did and didn't want to kill people. He knows Szeth just let himself be hit. Syl only tells him about the Honorblade's powers after he gets it from Szeth. So essentially, Kaladin let Szeth die to grab a Shardblade (he did not know it was an Honorblade at the time) - the exact thing his entire plot arc in WoK was against. Kaladin is all about Shards not being worth the lives of men.

 

On the whole, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

[Aleksiel]

.....

 

Nale is essentially someone Szeth worships. Having one of your gods (or something like that) offer you a second chance is a huge thing and it counts for more you're giving it credit in my opinion.

 

In the first version

 

 

Szeth opened his eyes. He immediately squeezed them closed again. “No. I died. I died!” He felt rock beneath him. Blasphemy. He heard water dripping and felt the sun on his face. “Why am I not dead?” he whispered. “The Shardblade pierced me. I fell. Why didn’t I die?”

 

In the new version Szeth doesn't say anything like 'Thank the stones I'm alive, I did the stupidest maneuver ever', so I do believe Szeth committed suicide.

 

As I said, I'm fine with Kaladin's choice to not go after Szeth, but I agree to disagree on that and stop here if you don't want to continue discussing it.

[Lightning he/him]

I need to stop posting in this thread because of I have strong opinions on this (I'm in no way telling anyone thinking differently you are wrong, these are just my interpretations and thoughts), but as a final point, how would you view this change if it had happened the other way around? If originally Kaladin had chose against killing Szeth and stabbing is hand and then it was changed to him killing him out of vengeance?

 

I don't view the original ending as Kaladin killing him out of vengeance.

 

If Kaladin had originally chosen against killing Szeth, I would have thought that was an incredibly bad choice to make, but it would have been in the story and I would have lived with it (and would not have wanted it retconned).

[GrainofaRiver]

So I apologize ahead of time if this is the wrong place for this, but any ideas when the e-book will update? I'm aware there's no specific date, but I was in the middle of a re-read when this happened, and I'd like to wait for the update before continuing. I'm only asking if I'm looking at waiting for a few days or a few weeks, as if it's the latter I'll move on to something else and come back.

[hoser he/him]

I ...

Kal could bring him to Urithiru. Yes, Szeth would be killed, but at the very least Szeth has important information regarding Taravangian. Kaladin never once thinks about who hired Szeth, despite Szeth saying he had orders. He's an assassin, and Kaladin has a complete lack of curiosity about who sent him. I find this to be a glaring failure on Kaladin's part.

...

Kal doesn't know the Honorblade is dangerous. Kal does know Szeth is tortured about what he did and didn't want to kill people. He knows Szeth just let himself be hit. Syl only tells him about the Honorblade's powers after he gets it from Szeth. So essentially, Kaladin let Szeth die to grab a Shardblade (he did not know it was an Honorblade at the time) - the exact thing his entire plot arc in WoK was against. Kaladin is all about Shards not being worth the lives of men.

Kaladin's failure to even try to get information from these exchanges totally annoys me also.  I understand why Brandon doesn't want him getting the information, but it is painful how obvious it is that it is for plot reasons.  Kaladin, who analyzes everything Shallan does, fails to even try to figure who is behind Szeth.  It would be better if they didn't interact, IMO. 

 

Syl tells Kaladin that Szeth's powers come from the sword in the first assassination attempt, so he knows that it is more dangerous than any old dead sprenblade.  Szeth's trajectory through Mr. T.'s rivals makes it obvious, IMO. 

 

So I apologize ahead of time if this is the wrong place for this, but any ideas when the e-book will update? I'm aware there's no specific date, but I was in the middle of a re-read when this happened, and I'd like to wait for the update before continuing. I'm only asking if I'm looking at waiting for a few days or a few weeks, as if it's the latter I'll move on to something else and come back.

The changes are earlier in this thread.  You could note the locations and read it with the new sections whether your ebook has updated or not, as others have suggested. 

[Moogle]

Syl tells Kaladin that Szeth's powers come from the sword in the first assassination attempt, so he knows that it is more dangerous than any old dead sprenblade.  Szeth's trajectory through Mr. T.'s rivals makes it obvious, IMO. 

 

I don't think she does? The only exchange I can find regarding it is this:

“Perspectives can be different among humans,” Kaladin said, trying to keep the emotion from his voice as he turned Beld facedown so he wouldn’t have to see those shriveled, burned-out eyes. “What if the honorspren thought this assassin was doing the right thing? You gave me the means to slaughter Parshendi.”

“To protect.”

“In their eyes, the Parshendi are protecting their kind,” Kaladin said. “To them, I’m the aggressor.”

Syl sat down, wrapping her arms around her knees. “I don’t know. Maybe. But no other honorspren are doing what I do. I am the only one who disobeyed. But his Shardblade . . .”

“What of it?” Kaladin asked.

“It was different. Very different.”

“It looked ordinary to me. Well, as ordinary as a Shardblade can.”

“It was different,” she repeated. “I feel I should know why. Something about the amount of Light he was consuming . . .”

 

It being 'different' seems to me to be the extent of Kaladin's knowledge of it, so I still get a weird feeling about Kaladin rushing for it.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[hoser he/him]

I don't think she does? The only exchange I can find regarding it is this:

“Perspectives can be different among humans,” Kaladin said, trying to keep the emotion from his voice as he turned Beld facedown so he wouldn’t have to see those shriveled, burned-out eyes. “What if the honorspren thought this assassin was doing the right thing? You gave me the means to slaughter Parshendi.”

“To protect.”

“In their eyes, the Parshendi are protecting their kind,” Kaladin said. “To them, I’m the aggressor.”

Syl sat down, wrapping her arms around her knees. “I don’t know. Maybe. But no other honorspren are doing what I do. I am the only one who disobeyed. But his Shardblade . . .”

“What of it?” Kaladin asked.

“It was different. Very different.”

“It looked ordinary to me. Well, as ordinary as a Shardblade can.”

“It was different,” she repeated. “I feel I should know why. Something about the amount of Light he was consuming . . .”

 

It being 'different' seems to me to be the extent of Kaladin's knowledge of it, so I still get a weird feeling about Kaladin rushing for it.

Without the ebook, I am lazy about searching and copying.  The paragraphs preceding your quote have Syl saying that no spren gives him the abilities and that she is the only honorspren in the physical realm.  The paragraphs following your quote also point at the Honorblade pretty clearly also. 

[Rybal]

I have to admit that something about the new wording of the scene feels off to me. It just doesn't flow in the same way and somehow feels anticlimactic.

I understand the arguments both ways. I could understand Kaladin killing, maiming, or saving Szeth. Saving Szeth would have required a much more extensive rewrite and would likely have changed much of the remainder of the first half of the series.

As for Syl telling him to get the honorblade, she obviously knows more now than she did at the beginning of the book (as the strength of the bond grows, so does her memory). It is very possible that she knows how important the honorblade is in the days to come and that, by saving it, they have the potential to protect far more people.

I strongly doubt that BS changed this simply because he felt that Kaladin shouldn't have killed Szeth. I am certain that he did so because of the plans that he has for the remainder of the series. I suppose we'll just have to wait to RAFO.

[Edgedancer he/him]

I strongly doubt that BS changed this simply because he felt that Kaladin shouldn't have killed Szeth. I am certain that he did so because of the plans that he has for the remainder of the series. I suppose we'll just have to wait to RAFO.

I wouldn't be so sure on that. In the blog post concerning the tweak Brandon says he wants to be up-front and the only reason he talks about is a "stronger scene of character for Kaladin and Szeth."

Meaning that unless he held something back from us after going "up-front" there are no deeper reasons.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Edgedancer

[Triasmus]

For my two cents on the issue at hand, I read the stab scene as Kaladin reflexively diverting the stab, not as something that he pondered about for a time to try to figure out what fits best with his moral character. He doesn't even know for sure why he diverted the stab.

 

Kaladin is thinking that it might have been pity that diverted the blow. Another potential reason is that it's just harder to kill someone who is no longer a threat.

Szeth basically surrendered. We all agree (I think) that one of the things that show us that Sadeas is a worthless sack of rotten potatoes is the fact that he personally killed a bunch of Parshendi that surrendered on the field. I would say that Szeth metaphorically raised the white flag.

 

I don't want to pass judgment on whether or not I think the change is a good change (Although not passing judgment on what I think really doesn't make sense...), but I would like to point out a few of the potential bonuses that may come because of the change.

• Kaladin will now be able to ponder about what it is about himself that caused him to divert the stab (Another opportunity of character building and it's always good to learn more about one's self).
• I think whatever else I was going to write has been said plenty enough before...... so I won't write those out (we can pretend that I did have coherent thoughts that I was going to put here.. )

 

 

 

I've actually had problems with this scene from the first time I read it, and this fix doesn't actually fix what I think is a real issue.

 

My question is, and will continue to be, Why in the world did Kaladin use a sword to stab instead of a trusty spear??

Edited March 12, 2015 by Triasmus

[Lightning he/him]

Okay, so here are the big questions.  Is Szeth's hand still withered after being brought back to life?  Can Nightblood heal soul wounds like shardblades?

[CHOUTAGOD he/him]

A just question!!!!! My man Sumsairt that above everything else discussed here is THE QUESTION!!!!! Kings to you!!!

[Lightning he/him]

Suddenly Brandon's change makes sense to me.  Szeth couldn't have had his soul fixed, just his body.  So I'm thinking his hand will be withered.  Also, I don't think Nightblood will be able to heal his soul.

[natc]

On the "stabbing with a sword" thing, he does have to hit Szeth's spine to kill him. The wider the blade the better I guess?

Okay, so here are the big questions. Is Szeth's hand still withered after being brought back to life? Can Nightblood heal soul wounds like shardblades?

Nightblood is more likely to consume the rest of your soul than heal it. Maybe both at most. Also gulps down breath like mad, so whatever powers he might start granting on Roshar I imagine the stormlight efficiency is rather crap

[Triasmus]

These other posts reminded me of my other important question.

 

...dead shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.

 

I took that statement to mean that someone bonded to a living spren can heal spiritual wounds, but one who's bonded to a dead spren can't, which in turn brought me to the question, Can people who have dead shardblades utilize stormlight somehow to heal non-spiritual wounds?

 

or a different train of thought, Was that statement referring to the idea that all Radiants were broken, which in turn allowed a spren to come in to "heal the soul." Following through, is this saying that only those who are bonded to a "living shardblade" are able to heal soul-wounds caused by shardblades. Following that line of thought brings a couple questions:

• I always assumed that early in the next book, Hobber (I think) will be shown to use stormlight to heal his legs. Will that no longer happen? (that would be sad. I can imagine Kaladin telling him that it'll work, but it never does... )
• Did the old scene of Szeth getting his soul healed show that he had already bonded a spren?

[natc]

<p>

These other posts reminded me of my other important question.

I took that statement to mean that someone bonded to a living spren can heal spiritual wounds, but one who's bonded to a dead spren can't, which in turn brought me to the question, Can people who have dead shardblades utilize stormlight somehow to heal non-spiritual wounds?

or a different train of thought, Was that statement referring to the idea that all Radiants were broken, which in turn allowed a spren to come in to "heal the soul." Following through, is this saying that only those who are bonded to a "living shardblade" are able to heal soul-wounds caused by shardblades. Following that line of thought brings a couple questions:

• I always assumed that early in the next book, Hobber (I think) will be shown to use stormlight to heal his legs. Will that no longer happen? (that would be sad. I can imagine Kaladin telling him that it'll work, but it never does... )
• Did the old scene of Szeth getting his soul healed show that he had already bonded a spren?

Depends on whether shardblade properties extend to squires I guess, as well as whether or not he thinks it ought to work. Your subconscious can troll yourself out of stormlight healing after all.

[Moogle]

I think everyone is really over-interpreting things.

 

Regrowth is known to be able to heal the soul:
“You fought a Surgebinder?” Adrotagia said, glancing at Taravangian.

“Yes,” Szeth said. “An Alethi man who fed upon Stormlight. He healed a Blade-severed arm. He is . . . Radiant . . .”

That strain in his voice did not sound safe. Taravangian glanced at Szeth’s hands. They were clenching into fists time and time again, like hearts beating. “No, no ,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now . One of the Honorblades has vanished.”

Szeth blinked , and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?”

“Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.”
 

Fabrials exist that allow one to use Regrowth:

“Be at peace,” a voice said. Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead. Ice washed across him. Suddenly, his pain was gone.

The woman reached out and touched Taffa. The flesh on her arm regrew in an eyeblink; the torn muscle remained where it was, but other flesh just grew where the chunks had been torn out. The skin knitted up over it without flaw, and the female Shardbearer wiped away the blood and torn flesh with a white cloth.
...

"... Lady knight, could you heal him again?” “I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded,” the woman said, glancing at the village. The fighting seemed to be dying down.

 

After healing Szeth, Nalan puts away something glowing brightly which Szeth thinks is a fabrial:
He held one hand behind his back, while his other hand tucked something away into his coat pocket. A fabrial of some sort? Glowing brightly?

 

It is pretty obvious that this is meant to be a Regrowth fabrial. Szeth most likely had his soul healed because of a Regrowth fabrial, not a spren bond or anything else. There is no reason to expect his hand to be withered, or any part of him to still have Shard wounds.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Moogle

[Mimiddle04]

This I think has to do with the fact that it's in Eshonai's POV and the listeners call the Stormfather the Rider of Storms.

 

 

Am I remembering incorrectly or does the Stormfather actually call Kaladin "Rider of Storms" in WoK?  If I am remembering it right I think this "clarification" actually confuses things a little.  To me at least.