Straff Venture Posted September 21, 2012 Report Share Posted September 21, 2012 I saw someone doing favourite characters for Elantris, and I thought this would be an interesting thread to start. Mine is Shaor, as her whole image just makes me feel sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Zane, by far. Don't get me started on ranting about him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Szeth, I guess, although Hoid is close. Szeth is just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Szeth, I guess, although Hoid is close. Szeth is just wrong. I'm interested about your view on szeth, care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Well... I must admit I don't really understand what makes people behave as they do, so take what I say below as my personal opinion. Sorry if it disagrees with yours. Essentially, Szeth is both really powerful (near overpowered) and whines too much. The combination does not sit well with me. If he really felt what he whines about, he'd have snapped long ago, and either came to relish the power he wields or lost his emotional capacity, burning out, and just feeling nothing afterwards. As it is, he seems to go through the motions of feeling rather than actually feeling stuff. Maybe it will be expanded on later, but, well... He feels like a dissonance that way (to me). On the simpler note, seeing above, he comes across to me as a whiny, spoiled and overpowered child (in the worst sense of the word. I rather prefer children to adults otherwise), and I don't like to read so much whining without the cause I can at least slightly relate to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Well... I must admit I don't really understand what makes people behave as they do, so take what I say below as my personal opinion. Sorry if it disagrees with yours. Essentially, Szeth is both really powerful (near overpowered) and whines too much. The combination does not sit well with me. If he really felt what he whines about, he'd have snapped long ago, and either came to relish the power he wields or lost his emotional capacity, burning out, and just feeling nothing afterwards. As it is, he seems to go through the motions of feeling rather than actually feeling stuff. Maybe it will be expanded on later, but, well... He feels like a dissonance that way (to me). On the simpler note, seeing above, he comes across to me as a whiny, spoiled and overpowered child (in the worst sense of the word. I rather prefer children to adults otherwise), and I don't like to read so much whining without the cause I can at least slightly relate to. No, I see where you're coming from, though I personally think szeth can be a badass when he's fighting. But yeah, I never got why he didn't just kill Taravangian on sight if he was so 'moral'. Supposedly he's absolved of any sin as long as he follows his mater's orders, but with someone like szeth you would think he would do the moral thing in that situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 No, I see where you're coming from, though I personally think szeth can be a badass when he's fighting. But yeah, I never got why he didn't just kill Taravangian on sight if he was so 'moral'. Supposedly he's absolved of any sin as long as he follows his mater's orders, but with someone like szeth you would think he would do the moral thing in that situation Badass, sure. But unless i missed something in reading, nothing prohibits him from killing his master if he was ordered to by the same master (ok, I might be wrong on this), so, yeah, if he were moral, he'd just confirm target, and before the order can be given, kill him dead.., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Badass, sure. But unless i missed something in reading, nothing prohibits him from killing his master if he was ordered to by the same master (ok, I might be wrong on this), so, yeah, if he were moral, he'd just confirm target, and before the order can be given, kill him dead.., I think we can say he is a coward, but not in the usual sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 I think we can say he is a coward, but not in the usual sense. True. Also, I had to regoogle Shaor, sonce I completely forgot about her. Well, she is plenty disgusting, but she just didn't register to me as a character, so I don't have any opinion on her, sorry. Although, I see plenty parallels between her actions and Szeths: [shaor] :I am hungry! Give me food! Bad food, doesn't fill my stomach, bad servants! [szeth]: Give me orders, I must have them! Bad orders, immoral and nasty, bad masters! Look at what you made me do! More orders! (Also, I have reread the Tarwhat scene and the things truthless is forbidden to do: As Truthless, there was only one life he was forbidden to take. And that was his own..There was nothing that stopped him from killing Tarwhat before he ordered Szeth not to harm him. He just wanted more orders, apparently) Ok, I stop ranting now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 That doesn't really make much sense to me, Satsuoni. He had no motivation to kill Taravangian before Taravangian was revealed to hold his Oathstone. Szeth didn't want to kill the king who built hospitals for his people. So he wouldn't have had any reason to hurry, in hopes that someone would stop him. After Taravangian told Szeth not to kill him, then Szeth found out about the Silent Gatherer's and Taravangian's slaughter. Then he couldn't do anything. Anyway, Szeth didn't really bug me. I really saw him as someone who's honor was the most important thing he had left, the only thing he could hold onto. I get the sense that he believes that breaking his Oath as Truthess would be worse then the slaughter he commits. I see where you're coming from, but I think I'd be pretty whiny too if I was forced to slaughter innocent people all the time. Also, you say that he should have gone crazy, and I think he actually has, at least a little bit. His irrational hatred of those he kills for not being able to stop him seems rather insane to me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Um, Windrunner, here is the relevant scene: Szeth frowned. And then it began to make sense. He knew what would happen next, even as the king reached into his voluminous sleeve and withdrew a small rock that glittered in the light of two dozen lamps. “You were always him,” Szeth said. “My unseen master.”The king set the rock on the ground between them. Szeth’s Oathstone. “You put your own name on the list,” Szeth said. “In case you were captured,” Taravangian said. “The best defense against suspicion is to be grouped with the victims.” “And if I’d killed you?” “The instructions were explicit,” Taravangian said. “And, as we have determined, you are quite good at following them. I probably needn’t say it, but I order you not to harm me. Now, did you kill my guards?” Between the king taking out the stone and ordering Szeth not to harm him, the king blabs. AT that point, Szeth should have plenty of motivation, since he knows already. Yet instead of swinging shardblade, or hitting the king in the throat (so he won't be able to talk)? He talks to the bastard. Even though he has explicit orders to kill him, and motive to do so. He waits for the next order without even fulfilling the previous one. [EDIT] Anyway, enough ranting Let's try to stay on topic, and open another thread for discussing Szeth, if necessary. Edited September 22, 2012 by Satsuoni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipbruley Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Spoilers! Please don't decrease my reputation for this (this has been done in the past because she has a lot of supporters), but I think Shallan is my least favorite character 1) She is a character you are supposed to like rather than hate so she is poorly written for me 2) He is selfish - Her whole plot to steal from Jasnah makes no sense in my mind and is completely selfish. Then she does something even MORE selfish by hanging around Jasnah so she could get taught by her. 3) I don't find her dialog witty or funny (I know a ton of people do). I just find it annoying. Her play on words retorts got really old, really quickly 4) I would rather her plot be told by Jasnah (who I find much more interesting) I like when bad guys are unlikable or annoying. I don't like when I find the protaganists hard to put up with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Um, Windrunner, here is the relevant scene: Between the king taking out the stone and ordering Szeth not to harm him, the king blabs. AT that point, Szeth should have plenty of motivation, since he knows already. Yet instead of swinging shardblade, or hitting the king in the throat (so he won't be able to talk)? He talks to the bastard. Even though he has explicit orders to kill him, and motive to do so. He waits for the next order without even fulfilling the previous one. [EDIT] Anyway, enough ranting Let's try to stay on topic, and open another thread for discussing Szeth, if necessary. Sorry, that's totally my bad. I avoid reading TWoK very often because I love it too much, I would make it tired quickly. So sometimes details get fuzzy. (I once totally forgot where Shallan's plot occurred in reference to the rest of them) But anyways, I don't think it's really off topic for to discuss what about a character we didn't like, and for others to discuss why those traits didn't bother them. But anyways, we can be done with this conversation if you wish. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightflame Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 I have to agree with Chaos on Zane. It's not so much his personality, but his role. Essentially, he makes a mess out of the otherwise near-perfect Mistborn Trilogy. He pretty much only exists so that there can be some action before the big Koloss attack in The Well of Ascension, but he's written so poorly that I wouldn't be surprised if he was only in there due to Executive Meddling. His personality is pretty cliche, and he gets no development. As well, in order to make him more of a threat, other characters constantly act like morons when they encounter him. Vin attacking Cett, realizing what she did, then freaking out was a good scene, but it could have been great if it had been her weakness that caused that scene rather than Zane showing up. As well, Zane causes a pointless love triangle that didn't advance the story whatsoever. (Please remember that while I'm tearing Zane apart, I truly love the Mistborn Trilogy with all my heart and recommend it to everyone I know who likes books.) I can forgive Brandon because the rest of the trilogy is so good, and I almost forgave Zane. However, recently I reread his final battle with Vin. Rust ad Ruin, that was terrible. Zane has Vin completely and utterly at his mercy, overpowering every single thing she does in the fight, including her Duraluminum and TenSoon's character development. The moment at the end was awesome, but nobody should ever be that broken. To me, Zane always be the blemish that keeps the Mistborn trilogy, while still a masterpiece, from being the near-perfection it almost is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) This is difficult. Had you asked me a week ago(before I reread Elantris) I'd have said Sarene. I loathed her...(I think it might be that her personality is very similar to my girlfriends, and I read Elantris just before we started dating, but now two+ years later it's less... cliche seeming) On the read through she grew on me. Now I'd have to say Steris. Because really... Bleh. I like strong women and all, but I like people with souls. Edited September 24, 2012 by Aminar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Um, Windrunner, here is the relevant scene: Between the king taking out the stone and ordering Szeth not to harm him, the king blabs. AT that point, Szeth should have plenty of motivation, since he knows already. Yet instead of swinging shardblade, or hitting the king in the throat (so he won't be able to talk)? He talks to the bastard. Even though he has explicit orders to kill him, and motive to do so. He waits for the next order without even fulfilling the previous one. [EDIT] Anyway, enough ranting Let's try to stay on topic, and open another thread for discussing Szeth, if necessary. You missed a key point in that scene, Satsuoni. His orders were very explicitly to talk to the king, wait for the kind to acknowledge that he heard his original statement, and then kill him. Taragavinian very carefully never acknowledged Szeth's original statement until he showed him the oathstone and ordered him not to kill him, which clearly superseded his prior orders entirely. I think that had Szeth really had a loophole he could have used once he understood what Taragavinian was up too, he would have taken it, but he never really had that option, under the assumption that he had to follow the orders exactly. It is this second assumption which people, understandably, have beef with. I'm not comfortable with it either, but I am interested in seeing where Brandon is going with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 You missed a key point in that scene, Satsuoni. His orders were very explicitly to talk to the king, wait for the kind to acknowledge that he heard his original statement, and then kill him. Taragavinian very carefully never acknowledged Szeth's original statement until he showed him the oathstone and ordered him not to kill him, which clearly superseded his prior orders entirely. I think that had Szeth really had a loophole he could have used once he understood what Taragavinian was up too, he would have taken it, but he never really had that option, under the assumption that he had to follow the orders exactly. It is this second assumption which people, understandably, have beef with. I'm not comfortable with it either, but I am interested in seeing where Brandon is going with it. Yes, you may be right. Might depend on what does "acknowledge" mean, and one may argue that "You have done your work well" is one, but yeah, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain.Kaulu Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) I think Szeth had an opening where he could have killed Taravangian on a loophole, but it only lasted maybe five seconds, and he was very confused during those five seconds. So he'll probably blame himself in the future for not taking advantage, even though it's perfectly reasonable that he didn't seize the opportunity with perfect decisiveness. Anyway ... I feel like we can't really judge characters until we understand their motivations. So Szeth and Steris, to name two examples, I haven't decided yet how I really feel about them. * * * I guess I have simple tastes when it comes to least-favorite characters: I'm easily persuaded to hate characters who are pretty much just pure selfishness, while being just complex enough to be believable. So Straff Venture and KanPaar are the two candidates for "least favorite" who come to mind. Edited September 26, 2012 by Captain.Kaulu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture Posted September 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 So Straff Venture and KanPaar are the two candidates for "least favorite" who come to mind. Not wise to proclaim your hatred for a character within his earshot But I would agree on KanPaar, he just struck me as one of the most arrogant, obtuse characters in the cosmere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaring at the Survivor Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) Szeth, I guess, although Hoid is close. Szeth is just wrong. How can you say that? Szeth and Hoid (along with Kaladin) are some of my favorite characters. I think I'd have to say... Amaram. Edit: I haven't read Mistborn yet. Edited October 4, 2012 by Stroniax 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satsuoni Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 How can you say that? Szeth and Hoid (along with Kaladin) are some of my favorite characters. I think I'd have to say... Amaram. I plead insanity! That being said, I can, theoretically, see how a person could like those characters, I just don't share the same values. And Amaram... Yeah, pretty nasty, just not important for me to dislike too much yet. I do look forward to his (possible) beat down in the next book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Definitely go with Amaram and KanPaar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Supposedly he's absolved of any sin as long as he follows his mater's orders, but with someone like szeth you would think he would do the moral thing in that situation No, that's just the point of his punishment. He is compelled by his nature as Truthless to do whatever he is commanded and is still morally responsible for every evil order he follows. He actually says this flat-out in his discussion with Tavarangian "'I am not absolved,' Szeth said, still wary. 'It is a common mistake stonewalkers make. Each life I take weighs me down, eating away at my soul...It is my punishment. To kill, to have no choice, but to bear the sins nonetheless.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture Posted September 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 No, that's just the point of his punishment. He is compelled by his nature as Truthless to do whatever he is commanded and is still morally responsible for every evil order he follows. He actually says this flat-out in his discussion with Tavarangian "'I am not absolved,' Szeth said, still wary. 'It is a common mistake stonewalkers make. Each life I take weighs me down, eating away at my soul...It is my punishment. To kill, to have no choice, but to bear the sins nonetheless.'" Sorry, forgot about that chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comatose Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I love Zane and KanPaar, but then I've always been a villains person. Now it's my turn to ask you guys not to hate one me, but my least favourite character is probably Kaladin. While he has many issues and weaknesses, he wasn't morally flawed or conflicted enough to be interesting to me. That doesn't make him a bad character, but that's my taste. Dalinar worked for me because his pursuit of a moral ideal was intentional, and a reaction to things in his past (his brother death, possibly his deal with the night mother), and he was still very conflicted about it. To me, anyways, it just felt like that powerful morality came a little to naturally to Kaladin for me to latch onto him. I'm sure someone can come up with a page reference that proves me wrong in some way, which I will accept, but I don't think I'll ever like Kaladin much, no matter how good of a character he is. We just didn't click. I think it might also be because the whole "oppressed soldier/barracks" narrative isn't one of my faves. Maybe he'll get better in future books. Anyways, I'm hoping to enjoy Stormlight 2 much more than Stormlight 1 because of its focus on Shallan rather than Kaladin. Very interesting posts in this thread. It's interesting to see people's opinions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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