Question About Dalinar At End Of Wor

[Dihatimus]

Just listened to the end of WoR for the umpteenth time. It is the first time I noticed the stormfather pluralizing shards when saying Dalinar will be a radiant without shards.

 

...uh...

 

 

Why was it pluralized? It is unnecessary to add that pesky little "s". It is probably just a literary thing. Here I begin to read too much into things... I get that he won't have a shardblade, but is he now permabanned from shardplate as well? 

 

 

Discuss

[neuxue]

I took it to mean that he would not gain Blade or Plate through the bond. There are a few ideas floating around as to where the original Radiants' Plate comes from, including the thought that it is gained by progressing further in the Ideals than any of the characters we currently see becoming Radiants. If this is the case, it is likely that the Stormfather is saying that Dalinar won't get Plate at whatever 'level' another Radiant would.

 

Interestingly, though, it doesn't appear that wearing 'ordinary' Plate has any negative effect on a Radiant/proto-Radiant the way holding a deadspren Blade does - Kaladin wears a fragment of Adolin's Plate without problems, and Renarin seems okay with Plate, it's just the Blade that screams in his head. The only potential downside to a Radiant wearing Plate is what Szeth tells us - that it interferes with Surgebinding (and Surgebinding interferes with it). I'd be curious to see how this is different for a Radiant wearing Plate they 'earn' through the bond - Plate  more like that which we see in one of Dalinar's visions and, incidentally, the kind of Plate he's probably not going to get by being bonded to the Stormfather.

[ZxlinkxZ he/him]

Well, where do you think shardplate came from? It must come from one of the higher levels of Radiant, once they speak more of the vows.

 

If not.... Welp. Drunk me has no idea.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Well, where do you think shardplate came from? It must come from one of the higher levels of Radiant, once they speak more of the vows.

 

If not.... Welp. Drunk me has no idea.

I'm in the camp that says it requires lesser spren of a type similar to the Nahel spren used in the Radiant's bond.  So for Kaladin, it would be made up of a lot of normal windspren (Syl refers to them as cousins).  Probably wrong, since we don't have a whole lot to go on at this point, just the windspren's unusual interest in him when he's Surgebinding.  I don't even know what the lesser form for something like a Cryptic would be.

 

I took it to mean that he would not gain Blade or Plate through the bond. There are a few ideas floating around as to where the original Radiants' Plate comes from, including the thought that it is gained by progressing further in the Ideals than any of the characters we currently see becoming Radiants. If this is the case, it is likely that the Stormfather is saying that Dalinar won't get Plate at whatever 'level' another Radiant would.

 

Interestingly, though, it doesn't appear that wearing 'ordinary' Plate has any negative effect on a Radiant/proto-Radiant the way holding a deadspren Blade does - Kaladin wears a fragment of Adolin's Plate without problems, and Renarin seems okay with Plate, it's just the Blade that screams in his head. The only potential downside to a Radiant wearing Plate is what Szeth tells us - that it interferes with Surgebinding (and Surgebinding interferes with it). I'd be curious to see how this is different for a Radiant wearing Plate they 'earn' through the bond - Plate  more like that which we see in one of Dalinar's visions and, incidentally, the kind of Plate he's probably not going to get by being bonded to the Stormfather.

I wouldn't say "without problems", judging from Kaladin's usage of Elit's helm, an unbonded Plate will drain Stormlight from the Surgebinder at a rapid pace.  So it's not just Bindings that are effected, it's also the ability to use Stormlight for added strength and healing.  So a Surgebinder using Plate that isn't theirs is only as effective as anyone else in Plate, less so, if they're largely dependant on the boosts gained by holding Stormlight.

[Dihatimus]

This is actually what I was thinking, that the s was evidence that shards came from spren. My latest crazy idea is that shardplate is the radiant form of carapace armor originally not needing to be powered by spheres but rather directly from the radiant. The spren saw what was done to the heralds and copied that giving the surges and shardblades. They saw the voidbringers grow their own armor and figured that out too and copied it, making the radiant capable of growing his own armor. Everyone wearing shardplate today are wearing the husks of dead knights radiant. Making when kaladin wearing the bones and carapace of parshendi kind of ironic. 

 

Is certain.

[Aleksiel]

I'm in the camp that says it requires lesser spren of a type similar to the Nahel spren used in the Radiant's bond.  So for Kaladin, it would be made up of a lot of normal windspren (Syl refers to them as cousins).  Probably wrong, since we don't have a whole lot to go on at this point, just the windspren's unusual interest in him when he's Surgebinding.  I don't even know what the lesser form for something like a Cryptic would be.

 

 

Since all Plates look the same without paint, I doubt each Order had a different type of lesser spren that made their Plate. I think it's more likely for all Plate to be made of the same type of spren/fabrial/whatever material it actually is.

 

I wouldn't say "without problems", judging from Kaladin's usage of Elit's helm, an unbonded Plate will drain Stormlight from the Surgebinder at a rapid pace.  So it's not just Bindings that are effected, it's also the ability to use Stormlight for added strength and healing.  So a Surgebinder using Plate that isn't theirs is only as effective as anyone else in Plate, less so, if they're largely dependant on the boosts gained by holding Stormlight.

 

The helm drained the light of the spheres, not the stomlight Kaladin was holding. Otherwise Gavilar's Plate would have sucked Szeth's light and repair itself. 

[neuxue]

I'm in the camp that says it requires lesser spren of a type similar to the Nahel spren used in the Radiant's bond.  So for Kaladin, it would be made up of a lot of normal windspren (Syl refers to them as cousins).  Probably wrong, since we don't have a whole lot to go on at this point, just the windspren's unusual interest in him when he's Surgebinding.  I don't even know what the lesser form for something like a Cryptic would be.

 

I'm still uncertain where I stand on this theory, but I'd suggest creationspren as the 'lesser spren' for Lightweavers. They're the ones we see most frequently with Shallan, and the most we ever see from her, I believe, are when she's drawing Pattern out.

[king of nowhere]

also, the plate  was draining so much stormlight  because it was being hit so much. if kkladin hadn't a pouch of spheres, that helm would have broken much sooner.

[natc]

Since all Plates look the same without paint, I doubt each Order had a different type of lesser spren that made their Plate. I think it's more likely for all Plate to be made of the same type of spren/fabrial/whatever material it actually is.

The helm drained the light of the spheres, not the stomlight Kaladin was holding. Otherwise Gavilar's Plate would have sucked Szeth's light and repair itself.

There's also the fact that I don't recall bonding plate like Cheese is saying being possible. "Normal" plate is permanently physical and despite the gems they connect to them lack the properties even dead shardblades possess. The fact the visions showed Dalinar Radiants that can just dismiss their helm is outright supposed to be strange to him, as the things are huge, weigh a ton, and need a whole team of people to manually put on. They don't even scream.

Regardless of the stormlight source there is no such "bond" that makes them drain any more slowly. They might not even be alive.

[Dihatimus]

I thought more about my crackpot theory. If shardplate is really grown by the knight radiant through the power of the bond, it would not impede his abilities at all, it is as much him as is his skin. Also, if it is radiant carapace, dismissing parts would be possible just like parshendi changing forms is. Using some dead radiants husk wouldn't cause screams. So in summary, shardblades are dead spren, shardplate are dead radiants.

Is certain.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

There's also the fact that I don't recall bonding plate like Cheese is saying being possible. "Normal" plate is permanently physical and despite the gems they connect to them lack the properties even dead shardblades possess. The fact the visions showed Dalinar Radiants that can just dismiss their helm is outright supposed to be strange to him, as the things are huge, weigh a ton, and need a whole team of people to manually put on. They don't even scream.

Regardless of the stormlight source there is no such "bond" that makes them drain any more slowly. They might not even be alive.

Yeah, there's definitely no modern day bonding of Plate.  I'm just talking about the Plate we see in Dalinar's visions, which can be dismissed at will and glows with the color of the Radiant's order.

 

I hadn't looked at that drainage of Stormlight in Kaladin's duel as the typical sort you see when a broken/separated piece of Plate tries to repair itself, but I suppose it could have been.  I'm still going to hold to my first interpretation though, that it was draining from his body directly, and that he unconsciously used the spheres on him, rather than the helm draining the spheres on him and he just ran out at a normal rate.

[natc]

I thought more about my crackpot theory. If shardplate is really grown by the knight radiant through the power of the bond, it would not impede his abilities at all, it is as much him as is his skin. Also, if it is radiant carapace, dismissing parts would be possible just like parshendi changing forms is. Using some dead radiants husk wouldn't cause screams. So in summary, shardblades are dead spren, shardplate are dead radiants.

Is certain.

So. . . artificially induced Parshendi Warform basically?

[Dihatimus]

So. . . artificially induced Parshendi Warform basically?

Yep but shiny too!

[Triasmus]

It seems to me like shardplate is some form of condensed stormlight.

As the radiant progresses in the ideals, their stormlight use becomes more efficient. Close to when they reach the point that they can hold stormlight perfectly, they're able to use a certain amount of their held stormlight to create the armor.

 

The stormlight that does leak out (from the skin or from normal talking) just goes to power the plate in the same way that Shallan's leaks power her weavings. That could be why Dalinar doesn't notice any of the radiants that he talks to in his visions having "frosty" breath (I'm pretty sure he doesn't notice that, at least).

 

 

nvm, I'm going to put one foot in the boat that believes a(or multiple) lesser cousin spren is used.

 

A cousin spren is used as the base. stormlight is used to give increased mass and simulate the bond.

I think this thought line answers why stormlight needs to be used to fix plate.

 

Problems:

The OP question.:

- Maybe there's nothing in Dalinar's/a Bondsmith's subconscious or spiritweb or some such that understands how a spren turns into a Blade (since the stormfather is unwilling to do so) and because of that they are unable to learn how to convince a lesser spren to turn into Plate?

 

This would make one think that if making the Plate in that way is a possibility, then a radiant would be able to make bunches of plates (for squires?):

- The current crop of Plate might only be around because the Radiants renounced their oaths while the bond was being simulated?

- Maybe only one bond can be simulated at a time?

 

screaming/syl's fine with the Plate:

- Maybe it's like wearing something made from an animal. It can be sad for the animal to die, but the thing we make from it is useful?

Edited March 6, 2015 by Triasmus

[Dihatimus]

The stormlight that does leak out (from the skin or from normal talking) just goes to power the plate in the same way that Shallan's leaks power her weavings. That could be why Dalinar doesn't notice any of the radiants that he talks to in his visions having "frosty" breath (I'm pretty sure he doesn't notice that, at least).

 

Problems:

The OP question.:

- Maybe there's nothing in Dalinar's/a Bondsmith's subconscious or spiritweb or some such that understands how a spren turns into a Blade (since the stormfather is unwilling to do so) and because of that they are unable to learn how to convince a lesser spren to turn into Plate?

 

This would make one think that if making the Plate in that way is a possibility, then a radiant would be able to make bunches of plates (for squires?):

- The current crop of Plate might only be around because the Radiants renounced their oaths while the bond was being simulated?

- Maybe only one bond can be simulated at a time?

 

screaming/syl's fine with the Plate:

- Maybe it's like wearing something made from an animal. It can be sad for the animal to die, but the thing we make from it is useful?

 

Nothing I have read would indicate the need for shardplate worn by a radiant to need spheres, In point of fact the gemstones added to shardblades were not original, spheres may have been added later when no one could feed stormlight to it directly.  Like you said, Shallans illusions feed off the stormlight she is leaking when holding it. Now, with squires able to glow, perhaps they could power shardplate as well. giving credence to your idea that it is capable of being crafted for others to use. 

 

Being able to dismiss the helm like the radiant in Dalinars vision had would point to a bond similar to the shardblade bond. Like Navani said, it wasn't until the gemstone was added to shardblades were they able to be dismissed, effectively replacing a portion of the bond that the dead spren once had. Interesting.

 

Seems this thread has become another "origin of shardplate" thread.

 

Shallan needs to go to shadesmar and talk to a shardplate bead, then she can get all the answers.

 

Is certain.

[physicskid he/him]

Szeth doesn't actually say that plate interferes with lashings. he says that the gemstones which power it do. because a radiant can hold storm light in their body and this storm light can power plate (as shown by kaladin), it seems likely that the only issue would be the fact that the gauntlets would prevent paladin from touching things to lash them.

[soulcastJam he/him]

So. . . artificially induced Parshendi Warform basically?

So when Eshonai puts on her shardplate she is putting on a dead radiant who was imitating a parshendi warform over her own parshendi armor?  Whats the next escalation?  Double shardplate?

[hoser he/him]

Since all Plates look the same without paint, ...

In Shallan's illustrations from WoR the Shardplate does not look the same to me. 

Edited March 6, 2015 by hoser

[Dihatimus]

So when Eshonai puts on her shardplate she is putting on a dead radiant who was imitating a parshendi warform over her own parshendi armor?  Whats the next escalation?  Double shardplate?

close, but no, not double shardplate. just heaps and heaps of irony.

[Aleksiel]

In Shallan's illustrations from WoR the Shardplate does not look the same to me. 

 

I didn't mean the stylish details - all Plates act the same, feel the same way, etc, so they seems to be made of the same material. Unless your argument is all type of lesser spren are the same in everything but looks.

 

What happens to a re-grown Plate, one with some missing elements? Do the new elements change stylistically or just their properties? Adopting the new look is an easy explanation for what you point out. 

[hoser he/him]

This is actually upsetting to me.

In Shallan's illustrations from WoR the Shardplate does not look the same to me. 

What is offensive enough about this post to get downvoted?  As far as I can tell, it is factual, relevant and phrased inoffensively.  Admittedly, I am not the most savvy about downvoting protocols, as I have only seriously downvoted one post.  Can someone explain to me what the problem is with this post?

 

I didn't mean the stylish details - all Plates act the same, feel the same way, etc, so they seems to be made of the same material. Unless your argument is all type of lesser spren are the same in everything but looks.

 

What happens to a re-grown Plate, one with some missing elements? Do the new elements change stylistically or just their properties? Adopting the new look is an easy explanation for what you point out. 

I can't tell what you mean.  You said:

Since all Plates look the same without paint, I doubt each Order had a different type of lesser spren that made their Plate. I think it's more likely for all Plate to be made of the same type of spren/fabrial/whatever material it actually is.

To me the simplest interpretation when you use the phrase "look the same without paint" is that you are referring to the appearance. 

 

I am not making any argument.  Since, as I recall, there are no references in the text to the plate being distinctive, it would be easy to think that they all look the same.  If they all looked the same, it would fit the argument you made that they all had the same origin, whereas, if they are different, that is a fact to be accounted for in our theorizing.  For example, if there were ten different patterns to the plate, that would suggest one pattern per order.  I just want our theorizing to be as accurate as possible and I thought I had a relevant observation to contribute to the discussion. 

[Aleksiel]

This is actually upsetting to me.

What is offensive enough about this post to get downvoted?  As far as I can tell, it is factual, relevant and phrased inoffensively.  Admittedly, I am not the most savvy about downvoting protocols, as I have only seriously downvoted one post.  Can someone explain to me what the problem is with this post?

 

 

I don't have the slightest idea, have my upvote to fix it. It happens sometimes, a misclick on the phone or something like that.

 

 

 

 

I can't tell what you mean.  You said:

To me the simplest interpretation when you use the phrase "look the same without paint" is that you are referring to the appearance. 

 

Appearance, but no in stylistic elements. It looks like it's made of the same material and it feels like the same material from what I've gathered.

 

 

 

I am not making any argument.  Since, as I recall, there are no references in the text to the plate being distinctive, it would be easy to think that they all look the same.  If they all looked the same, it would fit the argument you made that they all had the same origin, whereas, if they are different, that is a fact to be accounted for in our theorizing.  For example, if there were ten different patterns to the plate, that would suggest one pattern per order.  I just want our theorizing to be as accurate as possible and I thought I had a relevant observation to contribute to the discussion. 

 

You can craft different looking armors from the same material, but it's still the same material, only the way it's forged changes. Like you have different cotton shirts. Cotton feels different from wool, yet you can have a variety of cotton clothes and it's still cotton. If you get where I'm going with this, because I can't think of a better way to translate my idea right now.

[natc]

I can see what you're saying, but that's not appearance.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Even you admit they look different now, too.

[Aleksiel]

I meant the material appears to be the same in color and consistency, and I think it's a valid use of the word. Plates look the same when it comes to the material; they look different when it comes to how it's shaped, but that wasn't what I was referring to. If you have a better phrasing, do share.