Who Is Actually A Radiant?

[Guest]

I don't think bravery is Adolin's defining trait either. Each of the Radiant characters have several traits that are "the traits" of other orders. Kaladin would be a terrible protector if he wasn't also brave. Shallon would never do anything that would need her to use illusions if she wasn't trying to protect her family. I believe that Adolin's choice to care for those around him is in obedience to the things Dalinar has been trying to teach him for the past 6 years. Thats what I think his definitive trait is, obedience.  

 

In regards to the prostitute situation, the point is that Adolin was in a hostile warcamp ready to fight a group of men. Everyone else was running away, it wasn't brave of him to stay? He didn't do it in obedience of the codes (which at this point he doesn't even agree with)? He was sticking up for what Dalinar has been telling him is the way things should be, which is the opposite of what almost every member of Alethi society thinks. It would take a large amount of bravery for him to stand there protecting a prostitute to the point of being willing to kill those men, in Sadeas' warcamp, just because they were mistreating her.

I said anyone SHOULD have done what Adolin did, but he was the only one brave enough to do it. Let's remember that the Alethi society at this point would tell him that it's none of his business. 

 

I never said he wasn't kind and caring, I just don't agree that those are what drive him to do what he does. These characters are realistic, they have many different personality traits that define who they are. I think the argument made for him to be an ED doesn't fit with what we know of Adolin as well as he would fit the DB.

It's an attribute to Brandon's great writing that we can have this debate at this time. He could be either one, I just see the DB as the most likely and as the most satisfactory way for the story to go. At this point we're all arguing for the direction that we want the story too go, thats all we can argue for, at this point.

 

I was on my way to answer your first post, so I figure I would answer to this one instead while addressing some of the points you previously made.

 

You seem to agree bravery is not Adolin's most defining trait. So we'll leave it there as I agree with you and Aleksiel as well on the matter.

 

I agree what makes a Radiant is more complex then simply being "protective" or "brave", though I suspect all knights are brave on some levels. I agree Adolin took a risk, albeit a small one as nobody would have challenged him, in Sadeas's warcamp, but I disagree as to his motivations. I agree bravery was required to undertake such actions, but I disagree he did it to obey his father. My thoughts are he did it because molesting the prostitute was just wrong and Adolin has always been consistent in his tendency to fix wrongs around him. He does not like seeing harmless, defenseless people being mistreated as he thinks it is dishonorable. This is also shown in his disdain for hunting. This particular attitude does not come from Dalinar. Dalinar loves hunting, Dalinar does not understand why his son cannot revel in slaying a giant sea shell as any young man would.  All in all, Adolin is kind. He does not like to hurt, even meaningless creatures such as animals other see as trophies.

 

I believe he rescued the prostitute because he disagreed with people taking advantage of a helpless person, in other words because he is a kind, caring and loving person. This attitude comes from him, not Dalinar. Dalinar taught him to treat people with respect, to obey a strict moral code as to show the perfect example, but he did not teach him to stand for the mistreated. He did not teach him slaying a creature while being in a position of force is dishonorable. Adolin believes it is, not Dalinar. Father and son are not so similar as we are led to initially believe.

 

As for your argument on obedience, yes Adolin is very obedient, but he also is a brewing volcano on the verge to explode. He hates the Way of Kings, it unnerves him, it makes him want to scream his head out (I think I quoted that one in the Cosmere MBTI discussion), they only think keeping in obedient is his love for Dalinar, his strong desire not to go against him. I also feel we must not overlook Adolin's true motivations in joining the War on the Shattered Plains (strange to say as it makes you wonder how much say a 16 years old had on the matter, but I quoting Adolin here). He claimed it was an attempt to fix his grieving father, hoping if revenge was sought for Galivar, his father may stop hurting. Naive, yes, but it still underline the fact Adolin's love for his father has been a driving force for years. He gave up everything he hold dear to follow his father bizarre morality. Why? To be obedient or out of love for a father he sees as his life-long hero?

 

I believe he did out of love.

 

Kaladin loved Tien, true, but his driving force was not his love. It was his desire to protect his brother. He did not join the army because he loved Tien (well in part yes) but because he yearned to protect him.

 

Adolin just loves his closed ones. Sure he wants to protect them, but his driving force leans more towards love. Bravery, obedience are what happen when a young man such as Adolin loves his father so much, he is willing to sacrifice anything for him.

 

As for losing the shards... I do agree. I have often theorized Adolin would lose the Blade, though I do not think it precludes him from reviving it, to the contrary

[wolveryne]

Those are good points, but the thing that bothers me is that all actions have many and differing motivations. We're not in Adolin's head while he's confronting the officers mistreating the prostitute so we don't really know what his true motivations were.

 

Does it matter what his motivation for obeying is? Does it matter what Kaladin's motivation is to protect? They both seek to do those things out of love, so they should both be Edgedancers? Adolin can love his father but still rebel against his radical ideas, but he doesn't. He obeys his father in all things. These aren't 2 dimensional characters that have 2 traits and nothing else. I see the Defining Traits of the Orders as what their motivations lead them to do. They're about the actual things they do not just the why. Adolin's love for his father and general unwillingness to harm the helpless motivates him to obey his superiors and be brave enough to do things that will have grave consequences. I can't believe that Sadeas would just let Adolin killing one of his officers over a prostitute go away quietly. His bravery isn't in the act of the fight itself but in knowing that there will be a consequence for it and facing it anyway. He is, in a way, obeying his own sense of morality.

 If he truly "loved" the prostitute why didn't he use his position to bring her to the Kholin warcamp and see that she received training in another profession? Instead he left her there for that to happen all over again. I don't think Lift would have just left that woman there to go through that again. 

 

How can Adolin revive his Blade if he no longer has it? Do you think the spren is following him around in the cognitive realm? 

It just seems to me that the push to go out of the way to find ways in which Adolin is loving:healing is solely for the purpose of him reviving that Blade. And that seems like an unlikely fit for him as a whole.

 

I agree with your previously stated position that it's generally bad form to predict what order a character might become based on what we know about as the future flashback/main KR/main vp characters, but at the same time there are glaring holes in the known main viewpoint characters and the Orders they represent. Adolin becoming an Edgedancer would undermine Lift's character. It would strip her of all the original things that would make her interesting with the exception of her turning food into stormlight. Why would Brandon make an already main character fill the role of a character he has already said will play a major role in the back 5 books when an Order that is without any other even viable options is still waiting to be discovered? 

 

There are other ways to show how a dead Blade can be brought back, then by Adolin reviving his current Blade. 

[Arondell]

 

We are disagreeing on the requirements for an individual to be chosen by a specific sprens. If I follow your argumentation correctly, you are supposing exhibiting a given set of qualities is not enough. If I follow your logic correctly (and correct me if I got it wrong), the individual would need to maintain at least the second oath before having a Nahel bond and a guiding spren.... If I understood you properly, then I cannot endorse this line of reasoning as it would imply the first oaths have no purpose. No learning involved there as the person should already be maintaining them before even stepping foot on the path to Radianhood.

 

It does not make sense. Saying the oaths is tied to growth as a Radiant. You can't grow until you are one...

As for your example of Kaladin, you are forgotten how much he has progressed since early WoK. His initial reaction upon joining the bridgecrew was not to protect anyone, but to survive. It took Syl and a gruesome experience near the edge of a chasm to open his eyes to what he should be doing... Without Syl would Kaladin have pulled it of? Without the guidance of the spren having already chosen him, an individual who was currently failing at following the second oath he had not said yet?

 

 

It seems I'm looking farther back then you are.  Kaladin started protecting long before he was made a slave.  It started when he followed Tien into the army.  After Tien died he became obsessive about his spear training for the purpose of protecting.  It was made clear by Syl that that is what finally caught her attention.

 

“They would have died more quickly without you. You made it so they had a family in the army. I remember their gratitude. It’s what drew me in the first place. You helped them.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 161). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Prior to the battle, before he was made a slave, when he "bought" Cenn the squad leader specifically questions his actions.

 

 

“What do these recruits mean to you, anyway?” Gare called after Kaladin. “Your squad is half made up of men too small to fight properly!

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 666). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Also during the battle itself.

 

He could not be stopped, not when he felt like this. When he had the energy of defending the fallen, the power of standing to protect one of his men.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 668). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

So long before Kaladin was standing next to that chasm he had already exhibited traits and attitudes in line with the second oath.  Syl specifically states it is what finally drew her too him.  It took most of a year of brutal abuse and failure to reduce Kaladin to a suicidal state and, yes, Syl drew him out of it and convinced him to give it one more try.  That doesn't mean he wasn't inclined to do so before he got made a slave.

 

Does the first Oath have a purpose?  I would say yes but it is not entirely clear what.  The first Oath is a bit of an odd ball.  It is the only one that surgebinders don't need to figure out for themselves and is required by all regardless of personal philosophy.  My guess at this time is that it is a kind of initiation oath that simply promises adherence to the Knights overall philosophy and allows passage to the later oaths.  One comment by Taravangian does imply it has some level of importance on a practical level.

 

As for Gawx's relationship to Lift, he was neither a friend or acolyte before they entered the palace.  For that matter she largely viewed him as a bit of a pest.

 

 

She set Gawx on his back, face toward the sky. He wasn’t really anything to her, that was true. They’d barely just met, and he’d been a fool. She’d told him to go back.  But this was who she was, who she had to be.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 704). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

As for Lift not exhibiting any care for the forgotten as I define it, a primary reason she went along with Tigzikk rather then going alone was to help him out if he got into trouble.

 

 

“Tigzikk found out about this whole election thing,” she said. “He told me tonight was a good night for sneaking . I owed it to him. Besides, I wanted to be here in case he got into trouble. I might need to help.” “Why bother?” Why indeed? “Someone has to care,” she said, starting down the hallway. “Too few people care, these days.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 692). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Lift does not have the ability to solve the inequalities of all of society.  She is trying to help the lowly where and as she can.  In my view if Adolin is of a similar mindset then he could be doing a lot more in this matter then he is currently doing with enormously more resources.  Is Adolin callous or uncaring?  No.  On the other hand he doesn't really pay it much attention unless the situation is right in front of him.  This is, in my opinion, a critical difference.  Lift actively seeks out such people and situations.  Adolin does not.

 

In regards to Adolin's sword I never really questioned it being an Edgedancers blade.  It seemed reasonable based on the description when it forms from mist.

[Aleksiel]

.....

 

There will be more than one Radiant per Order, so the need for Lift's originality isn't a convincing argument. 

 

The characters of course have more than two traits, the question is which are the leading ones. Does Adolin stand out as particularly braver than the other characters we have? Not really. He can grow into the Order of Edgedancer, he has the other qualities associated with them - eloquent, refined, elegant, deadly warrior, not too demanding, focused on the small picture. We're talking about potential here.

 

If anyone is to revive his Blade (it's been mentioned in-world, we know it's possible, so it is very likely to happen). Occam's razor is Adolin will be the one who'd do it. It's too big an event for it to happen in some nobody's interlude or outside a PoV character. Adolin's special connection to his Blade has been foreshadowed for two books.  Foreshadowing isn't the same as red herring - the former is subtle whereas the latter is much more straight forwarded.

 

On a humorous note if you don't see Adolin as an ED, then he probably will be one since Dalinar was generally speculated for a Stoneward and no one guessed Renarin will end up with the learned and giving Truthwatchers before WoR.

 

 

 

.....

 

Just a few quick points, because I don't have the time for a longer post: how exactly is the group who robbed the palace fitting for 'forgotten' one? They were an organized group of thieves. 

 

If we take a look far back in Adolin's past, he's been a very nice and friendly guy, beloved by his men, remembering his mother, treating everyone fairly; maxal's point was even someone with a forming bond can step away from their supposed attributes, so don't expect someone who's not even there to be more radiant than a surgebinder.

[Arondell]

 

Just a few quick points, because I don't have the time for a longer post: how exactly is the group who robbed the palace fitting for 'forgotten' one? They were an organized group of thieves. 

 

I'll use a quote from Tarvangian.

 

 

And so we must bring the forgotten and the lowly. Those who will not be missed.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 976). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

[Guest]

I do not have much time tonight, so I'll answer to only a few points.

 

I don't think Lift would have just left that woman there to go through that again.

 

We are assuming too much out of Lift. She had all but one POV, we do not know much about her, so I would refrain from stating what she would or would do.

 

Besides, it goes back to the previous discussion, we cannot expect Adolin to behave exactly like Lift. Lift is a Level 2 Radiant. Adolin does not even have a working Nahel bond. Why should he be the equivalent of a Level 2 Radiant in order to befit a given order? We are talking pure potential here.

 

Could Adolin become caring enough withhold the Edgedancers oaths? I think he can. Think Zorro

 

 

 

How can Adolin revive his Blade if he no longer has it? Do you think the spren is following him around in the cognitive realm? 

It just seems to me that the push to go out of the way to find ways in which Adolin is loving:healing is solely for the purpose of him reviving that Blade. And that seems like an unlikely fit for him as a whole.

 

I think by losing his Blade he'll realize the deepness of his attachment to it. Also, during Salinor's duel, Adolin crushes the gem at the pommel of his Blade in order to prevent him from re-activating his broken bond to his Blade. A tradition. Folks tales. An unfounded legend. It never happened.

 

But Adolin has a special connection to his Blade. Breaking the bond won't break this. The Blade wants to be with Adolin, so it will come a time where Adolin will try for his Blade. He summons it nearly unconsciously most of the time, especially when nervous, so I doubt he'll lose the habit this easily. Therefore, at some point in the story, Adolin will be in dire need of his Blade, even if it is not his anymore. Deep down, he'll be convince that she is his.

 

I am thinking he will then figure out how to be One with his Blade. He'll call her and she'll come. In other words, he'll give credit to the old legend. After that, the bond will start to deepen.

 

Just saying, but the "Adolin looses his Blade before reviving it" is sort of my pet-theory I, of course, do not have much arguments. I just think it may be a possibility.

 

 

 

I agree with your previously stated position that it's generally bad form to predict what order a character might become based on what we know about as the future flashback/main KR/main vp characters, but at the same time there are glaring holes in the known main viewpoint characters and the Orders they represent. Adolin becoming an Edgedancer would undermine Lift's character. It would strip her of all the original things that would make her interesting with the exception of her turning food into stormlight. Why would Brandon make an already main character fill the role of a character he has already said will play a major role in the back 5 books when an Order that is without any other even viable options is still waiting to be discovered? 

 

There are other ways to show how a dead Blade can be brought back, then by Adolin reviving his current Blade. 

 

Lift is a very minor interlude character. She will not have a more prominent role until the Second Half which will happen some 10 to 15 years in the future. Many many things can happen in the future. Lift could have another role to play then exploring the order of the Edgedancers. Or it could be she will be a very different Edgedancer than Adolin. One does not exclude the other.

 

Why would Brandon make an already main character fill the role of another character? Why indeed? This has been the core of my former argumentation as to why Adolin should become a Dustbringer. Because we have none. Because it seems like it fits him. But what if we have been reading the clues wrong? The Edgedancer theory has merit and good arguments. I do not expect to convince everyone with it, but I was convinced at some point, so all hope is there

 

I feel having another character but Adolin reviving his Blade, after all the foreshadowing, would be a serious disappointment for many readers.

[wolveryne]

"There will be more than one Radiant per Order, so the need for Lift's originality isn't a convincing argument."

• I wasn't trying to say that it was particularly convincing, I was trying to use it as a secondary backup reasoning. I haven't seen it stated by Brandon that there will be more then one MAIN character in an Order. Why would he waste words having Adolin go through the same progression that Lift will be going through? A secondary background character that becomes more prominent, sure but not a main character already established. Turn it around, Why introduce Lift as the first Edgedancer if that's what Adolin is going to be? As far as we know she could turn food into stormlight as a willshaper or skybreaker, so why make her an ED if an already established Character is going to be one? Agan I don't see this as a huge indicator, but one that supports others. 

 

• No Adolin doesn't show more bravery then others I completely agree.. My opinion is that he shows more OBEDIENCE then any other character does. Kaladin, Shallon, Lift, Jasnah, and even Dalinar aren't particularly obedient to those that have any kind of authority over them.  Adolin is the only one shown to be obedient even when he doesn't want to be. He even obeyed Kaladin on the Tower. I don't think that's something others would have done. 
• As for EDs being more "eloquent, refined, elegant, deadly warrior, not too demanding, focused on the small picture" you have pointed out that the most likely thing is often the one that doesn't happen. That is a discrioption from a in-world book hundreds of years old filled with stereo types. The bucking of such stereo types seems to be a theme of these books so I don't find Adolin fitting that description as very convincing. 
• Also when has Adolin ever been focused on the small picture? By the end of WoR he is completely all in for Dalinar's vision of a grand and noble kingdom. That's certainly no small picture. It was this unerring believe in said vision that lead him to finally let himself off his chain and attack Sadeas. 

 

"If anyone is to revive his Blade (it's been mentioned in-world, we know it's possible, so it is very likely to happen). Occam's razor is Adolin will be the one who'd do it. It's too big an event for it to happen in some nobody's interlude or outside a PoV character. Adolin's special connection to his Blade has been foreshadowed for two books.  Foreshadowing isn't the same as red herring - the former is subtle whereas the latter is much more straight forwarded."

• I agree that a Blade being revived is inevitable, That's what I believe has been foreshadowed. I believe that the straight forwardness of it being Adolin is the red herring. Adolin doing it is so in our face that I find it unlikely. I never thought that it would happen with a non-pov character or even in an interlude. When I suggested that it could maybe Rysn that does it, I was taking the possibility of her becoming a main character in the back 5 books; and the trend of her being given an exotic gift at the end of each of her interludes as possible foreshadowing of her being gifted a Blade at some point. Same as my Eshonai example, I was using them to show that there are other possibilities. Occam s razor is a good tool, but isn't always right and shouldn't become a crutch.                

"On a humorous note if you don't see Adolin as an ED, then he probably will be one since Dalinar was generally speculated for a Stoneward and no one guessed Renarin will end up with the learned and giving Truthwatchers before WoR."

 

• That can be turned around on you. You don't think it's likely he'll be a DB so it's likely to happen.
• I could be completely wrong but I don't remember that we knew that Bondsmith's and Truthwatchers even existed before the end of WoR, And if that's the case they seem bad examples. 

And in response to maxel:

"We are assuming too much out of Lift. She had all but one POV, we do not know much about her, so I would refrain from stating what she would or would do.

 

Besides, it goes back to the previous discussion, we cannot expect Adolin to behave exactly like Lift. Lift is a Level 2 Radiant. Adolin does not even have a working Nahel bond. Why should he be the equivalent of a Level 2 Radiant in order to befit a given order? We are talking pure potential here.

 

Could Adolin become caring enough withhold the Edgedancers oaths? I think he can. Think Zorro  <_<"

• She's the only living, breathing, awesome inducing ED that we have, and the fact the we have to do some mental gymnastics to get any way at all that she and Adolin share characteristics even a little is a chink your theory. (In my head anyway, but that's pretty dented already.   ) Sure there is potential for him to grow in that direction, but there is just as much if not more potential for him to in the direction of the DBs. 

"But Adolin has a special connection to his Blade. Breaking the bond won't break this. The Blade wants to be with Adolin, so it will come a time where Adolin will try for his Blade. He summons it nearly unconsciously most of the time, especially when nervous, so I doubt he'll lose the habit this easily. Therefore, at some point in the story, Adolin will be in dire need of his Blade, even if it is not his anymore. Deep down, he'll be convince that she is his."

• You're putting a lot of unknown feeling into that Blade. We don't know for sure that it even hears Adoln when he talks to it. We just know that it's a possibility. 
• It's a sound theory, but I don't find it any more or less likely then him losing his shards and him going on to show obedience and extreme bravery afterword.

 

 

Why would Brandon make an already main character fill the role of another character? Why indeed? This has been the core of my former argumentation as to why Adolin should become a Dustbringer. Because we have none. Because it seems like it fits him. But what if we have been reading the clues wrong? The Edgedancer theory has merit and good arguments. I do not expect to convince everyone with it, but I was convinced at some point, so all hope is there 

• I've seen all of those arguments, and from others that true to point out his bravery. As I said I don;t think he's any more brave at this point them others are. What I haven't seen before is "Adolin as DB" presented from him being obedient before. That's what has always struck me about him so it bothered me that it seemed to never get mentioned. 

 

 

"I feel having another character but Adolin reviving his Blade, after all the foreshadowing, would be a serious disappointment for many readers

• Well there were A LOT of people disappointed with the ending to Mistborn, so I don't think that's a major concern to him, As long as he feels he's written the story in they he felt it needed to be.  

A couple of things:

1. I'm sorry for my dense brain not figuring out the super easy quoting system until the very end. And I'm also sorry for being to lazy to go back and fix it. I will do better in the future
2. I hope I don't come across as a jerk at all, it's hard to tell in forums. I've really enjoyed this back and forth. You've made me think of things in ways I haven't before and that always a good thing.

[Triasmus]

OK... so I might just not be remembering very good, but I don't remember the potentiality of reviving a blade being mentioned in the books. I know of the WoBs relating to the matter, but I don't remember "all this foreshadowing" about a blade getting revived. The only potential foreshadowing that I recall is Adolin liking to talk to his Blade and not wanting to name it (which could very, very easily be an idiosyncrasy to set Adolin apart and not actually any type of foreshadowing).

There's also the instances of italicized duck, but I just read that as warrior instinct.

 

Is there more that I'm missing?

[Seerow]

OK... so I might just not be remembering very good, but I don't remember the potentiality of reviving a blade being mentioned in the books. I know of the WoBs relating to the matter, but I don't remember "all this foreshadowing" about a blade getting revived. The only potential foreshadowing that I recall is Adolin liking to talk to his Blade and not wanting to name it (which could very, very easily be an idiosyncrasy to set Adolin apart and not actually any type of foreshadowing).

There's also the instances of italicized duck, but I just read that as warrior instinct.

 

Is there more that I'm missing?

 

Pattern definitely mentions the possibility of the spren reviving if their knights still lived. I think either pattern or syl mentions at one point that the right person might be able to revive them, followed by a doubting statement along the lines of "I'm not sure the right people even exist anymore". And there was also the bit after Syl comes back where she says "I was only as dead as your Oaths".

 

There might be a couple other tidbits I'm forgetting, but I think that covers it. It's not something you get beat over the head with, but the possibility is definitely displayed as open.

[Localconfusi0n]

OK... so I might just not be remembering very good, but I don't remember the potentiality of reviving a blade being mentioned in the books. I know of the WoBs relating to the matter, but I don't remember "all this foreshadowing" about a blade getting revived. The only potential foreshadowing that I recall is Adolin liking to talk to his Blade and not wanting to name it (which could very, very easily be an idiosyncrasy to set Adolin apart and not actually any type of foreshadowing).

There's also the instances of italicized duck, but I just read that as warrior instinct.

 

Is there more that I'm missing?

Also in one scene the mist that Adolins blade forms in is in the shape of vines (think wyndle) Idk who noticed that but awesome catch btw. And they asked about it in a WoB and his answer was mischievous. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by jefftucker0525

[Aleksiel]

 

"There will be more than one Radiant per Order, so the need for Lift's originality isn't a convincing argument."

• I wasn't trying to say that it was particularly convincing, I was trying to use it as a secondary backup reasoning. I haven't seen it stated by Brandon that there will be more then one MAIN character in an Order. Why would he waste words having Adolin go through the same progression that Lift will be going through? A secondary background character that becomes more prominent, sure but not a main character already established. Turn it around, Why introduce Lift as the first Edgedancer if that's what Adolin is going to be? As far as we know she could turn food into stormlight as a willshaper or skybreaker, so why make her an ED if an already established Character is going to be one? Agan I don't see this as a huge indicator, but one that supports others. 

 

One main Radiant per Order, but he never said anything about them being the same persons in both five books. Lift will be major character later in the second five. Why not have another ED in the first five?

 

 

Small picture is Adolin caring for the other soldiers on the battlefield whereas Dalinar was focusing on the strategy of the battle. Things like that. It wasn't meant to offend Adolin, it's in a way how Kaladin is as well. 

 

 

 

 

I agree that a Blade being revived is inevitable, That's what I believe has been foreshadowed. I believe that the straight forwardness of it being Adolin is the red herring. Adolin doing it is so in our face that I find it unlikely. I never thought that it would happen with a non-pov character or even in an interlude. When I suggested that it could maybe Rysn that does it, I was taking the possibility of her becoming a main character in the back 5 books; and the trend of her being given an exotic gift at the end of each of her interludes as possible foreshadowing of her being gifted a Blade at some point. Same as my Eshonai example, I was using them to show that there are other possibilities. Occam s razor is a good tool, but isn't always right and shouldn't become a crutch.  

 

There's nothing straight forwarded in the idea of Adolin reviving his Blade. The hints are subtle, foreshadowing. The average reader doesn't analyze and memorize events as we here on the forum. Most readers are cosmerely unaware. Giving Sadeas PoV chapters when he only failed to harm Dalinar and ended dead - that's red herring. Adolin talking to his Blade and other minor hints here and there are foreshadowing.

 

I hope Eshonai remains our Voidbringer PoV character, that's too interesting for me. And her reviving her Blade would require her to get rid of the voidspren somehow and much more efforts.

 

Why would Rysn revive a Shardblade? She doesn't even have one, she has a larkin.

 

Please note that if you don't use the quote button at the end of posts, people don't get notifications and don't know you answered to their posts.

 

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OK... so I might just not be remembering very good, but I don't remember the potentiality of reviving a blade being mentioned in the books. I know of the WoBs relating to the matter, but I don't remember "all this foreshadowing" about a blade getting revived. The only potential foreshadowing that I recall is Adolin liking to talk to his Blade and not wanting to name it (which could very, very easily be an idiosyncrasy to set Adolin apart and not actually any type of foreshadowing).

There's also the instances of italicized duck, but I just read that as warrior instinct.

 

Is there more that I'm missing?

 

That Duck appears in both his fights with Szeth, so may be Adolin's proximity to surgebinders will somehow help or it's already regaining bits of consciousness. The foreshadowing is Adolin talking to his Blade and refusing to name it on the grounds of the Blade already having a name and him just not knowing it. It's subtle and there are only a few things, that's why it's called foreshadowing 

 

Pattern and Shallan discuss the possibility of reviving Blades; we know Cryptics' efforts failed. Pattern speculated it might be possible of their Radiants lived and we know from Syl Blades become a little alive each time they are summoned and Adolin has a nervous tick of summoning his Blade. That's all there is to it in-world I believe.

 

edit2:

 

 

I'll use a quote from Tarvangian.

 

How is that relevant? T's hospitals help the poor and unfortunate. A group of thieves hardly qualifies.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Guest]

• I wasn't trying to say that it was particularly convincing, I was trying to use it as a secondary backup reasoning. I haven't seen it stated by Brandon that there will be more then one MAIN character in an Order. Why would he waste words having Adolin go through the same progression that Lift will be going through? A secondary background character that becomes more prominent, sure but not a main character already established. Turn it around, Why introduce Lift as the first Edgedancer if that's what Adolin is going to be? As far as we know she could turn food into stormlight as a willshaper or skybreaker, so why make her an ED if an already established Character is going to be one? Agan I don't see this as a huge indicator, but one that supports others. 

 

That. I failed to count the number of time I have used the exact same reasoning. Everyone is trying to figure out what Brandon's big plan is and everyone is working with the same set of clues. I have split hair in four trying to reason out the possibilities, I have created hundred of false arguments based on book structure, announced flashbacks, predicted main characters, current KR, supposed KR... It just never ended, but I now believe I was looking at the clues the wrong way.

 

I was using what I considered did not make sense as an argument. We already have a character for each order except the DB. Szeth and Eshonai have to become KR as they have a flashback. The last spot, the DB spot in the flashbacks was given to a Herald: Shalash. None of it made sense.

 

None of it made sense because I had made my idea of what made sense and what didn't. I heavily based myself on the first two books out of series of ten.

 

Huge mistake.

 

Several more recent WoB put a nail into the coffin of my crazy speculations. We can't predict Brandon. We can't know it advance what he plans to write. We can guess, based on the clues at hand, we can speculate, but using the fact we already have Lift as an ED as a side argument as to why it would not make sense for Adolin to be one as well is not an argument we can make. Why? Because it assumes too much out of Brandon's plans. It may not make sense, now, to us readers, but no doubt it will make sense providing Brandon uses this plot.

 

It could be Brandon has other plans for Lift then exploring the ED. It could be he planned to use Adolin for it instead. Adolin is in a nice position for great character development right now. Of all our main character, he is the only "intact" one. The only one who has not broken yet. All of the others were broken sometimes in the past when we meet them,. For some, it is obvious, others, harder to grasp, but each and every single major character we have met so far is a broken Radiant. Not Adolin. Adolin is up there and he will crash down. That in itself will make a very interesting story, no matter which order he ends up into providing he ends up in one at all.

 

In any case, we do not know. My guess has always been Adolin would be one of the major KR viewpoint in the first half, but he'll have a more laid-back role in the second-half as he ends up king of Alethkar and father of many children, but this is pure speculation on my part. Just one of the thousand ways I see the story going.

 

 

 

She's the only living, breathing, awesome inducing ED that we have, and the fact the we have to do some mental gymnastics to get any way at all that she and Adolin share characteristics even a little is a chink your theory. (In my head anyway, but that's pretty dented already.   ) Sure there is potential for him to grow in that direction, but there is just as much if not more potential for him to in the direction of the DBs.

 

We have to do mental gymnastic mostly because we know next to nothing about Lift. We are assuming too much about her. She had one POV. I hardly call her a secondary character at this point, more like a tertiary character. One POV is not enough to get a clear idea of one character.

 

Adolin, we have sufficient POV to round him up, but we are still missing the kind of insight on him we had on Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. He started up as a walking cliche. There were hints, but he has not truly started to grow, as a character, until the second part of WoR. However, we know one of is most defining traits is the care he has for those around him. It propelled him all through both books. In WoK, he confronted Dalinar out of love. He yearned to tell his father he may be going crazy because he could not stand to watch him become the laughing stock of Alethkar. What was Dalinar's response? To abduct as Highprince in favor of Adolin... And Adolin's response to this new unexpected development? Anxiety. Stomach aches. Pain. He had hurt him father...... And it hurt him to the point he felt anguish over it, to the point he started to have a physical reaction to it... Was obedience driving him then? No. Love was.

 

I have more to say on the matter, but no more time. I'll come back later.

[Localconfusi0n]

 

           

I hope Eshonai remains our Voidbringer PoV character, that's too interesting for me. And her reviving her Blade would require her to get rid of the voidspren somehow and much more efforts.

 

 

This isnt necessarily true. Probably yes, but not a guarantee. You can access more than one magic system without losing the other, we've seen it multiple times, most prominently with Hoid. All Eshonai must do is attract a Spren that can form a Nahel bond. While i would agree that this is unlikely to happen while she is a Voidbringer, i still think it is a possibility until i am proven wrong. Being a Voidbringer does not mean u cannot adhere to the principals and Oaths of a KR (im already imagining all the disagreements and skoffs) We know that the Voidspren alter the mind and perception, actually they kind of take over all the bodies functions now that i think about it. 

 

In Eshonai's PoV we see that she is trapped in her mind, almost like a bi-stander in her own mind. Spren are cognitive aspects and it makes sense to me that they can seek out potential bond-mates in the cognitive realm. Seeing a person, or Parshendi, of the right mind set would be attractive to them and they may attempt to bond regardless of a pre-established bond with a Voidspren. 

 

Honestly, i can see no better idea than to have Eshonai be a Parshendi that becomes a Radiant. We already have seen some PoV from her so we're a little bit familiar, and it would let us have an in depth look at the mental combat that might go inside, whether the Voidspren wins or the Radiantspren or if this somehow allows Eshonai to gain control of herself once more. Any way it goes i think it would be really interesting.

 

 

Also this thread has been a great read so far. I think i am now convinced that Adolin would make a great Edgedancer. The arguement against him being one is incredibly weak in my opinion and so im going to put in my 2 cents about that one (that expression is just for all of your benefit though because nothing i say is EVER worth less than a dollar) 

 

Just because we have an Lift as an ED already doesnt mean that we cant have another where that role will be developed. We dont even have confirmation that she'll be a main character, its just implied. All we KNOW is that a) her back-story will appear in the second arc b ) she's an ED and c) that Brandon has said we will she more of her (i like everyone else am assuming this means more than just her back-story) In no way does any of that mean she will be how/who we learn about ED from. Im not even necessarily saying it will be Adolin, though at this point i find it likely, just that we cant be sure it will be her. Besides, she's pretty damnation far from where the main story is taking place right now and to our knowledge has no reason to go there at the moment. So to have a lot of PoV from her would be cool cause i think she's an awesome character (heh awesome ) but it wouldnt really be all that relatable to whats going on at this point.

 

Sorry for the long rambling post, but im not going to feel too bad as alot of that has already gone on.

Edited March 17, 2015 by jefftucker0525

[Aleksiel]

This isnt necessarily true. Probably yes, but not a guarantee. You can access more than one magic system without losing the other, we've seen it multiple times, most prominently with Hoid. All Eshonai must do is attract a Spren that can form a Nahel bond. While i would agree that this is unlikely to happen while she is a Voidbringer, i still think it is a possibility until i am proven wrong. Being a Voidbringer does not mean u cannot adhere to the principals and Oaths of a KR (im already imagining all the disagreements and skoffs) We know that the Voidspren alter the mind and perception, actually they kind of take over all the bodies functions now that i think about it. 

 

In Eshonai's PoV we see that she is trapped in her mind, almost like a bi-stander in her own mind. Spren are cognitive aspects and it makes sense to me that they can seek out potential bond-mates in the cognitive realm. Seeing a person, or Parshendi, of the right mind set would be attractive to them and they may attempt to bond regardless of a pre-established bond with a Voidspren. 

 

Honestly, i can see no better idea than to have Eshonai be a Parshendi that becomes a Radiant. We already have seen some PoV from her so we're a little bit familiar, and it would let us have an in depth look at the mental combat that might go inside, whether the Voidspren wins or the Radiantspren or if this somehow allows Eshonai to gain control of herself once more. Any way it goes i think it would be really interesting.

 

The KR exist to defend humanity against the Voidbringers, it would need a great amount of effort to convince readers this can change. Nahel bond spren do not wish to co-exist with Voidbringers and voidspren, that is the very reason Pattern and Wyndle have been send in their own words. 

 

I don't know if Eshonai is trapped in her mind. The screaming could be her Blade being terrified by the proximity of a voidspren.  Dead Blades scream when touched by surgebinders, why not when bonded to a Voidbringer? If the radiant spren and the voidspren somehow manage to co-exist, this is a game changer.

 

 

 

Also this thread has been a great read so far. I think i am now convinced that Adolin would make a great Edgedancer. The arguement against him being one is incredibly weak in my opinion and so im going to put in my 2 cents about that one (that expression is just for all of your benefit though because nothing i say is EVER worth less than a dollar) 

 

Welcome to the Adolin-the-Edgedancer side! We have chicken. And you get cologne even in prison.

[Guest]

Sorry for the broken post... You know... Life

 

• You're putting a lot of unknown feeling into that Blade. We don't know for sure that it even hears Adoln when he talks to it. We just know that it's a possibility. 
• It's a sound theory, but I don't find it any more or less likely then him losing his shards and him going on to show obedience and extreme bravery afterword.

 

Of course I am putting many unknown feelings into, including my own. This last bit about Adolin's Blade was complete pure speculation on my part. One of the thousand scenarios I have made up in my head. One I think is plausible, but I know it hardly makes a valid argument. I stated it in order to bring forward the argument Adolin's losing his Blade would not preclude him from reviving his Blade: if I can think of ways to make it possible and plausible, then so can Brandon. Therefore, you should not let your initial feeling Adolin would lose his Blade influence too much your speculation. He can lose his Blade AND revive it later as he gained it back. Imagine Adolin going on a crusade to win back his Blade, not any Blade, but THAT one specifically Wouldn't that make an interesting story plot?

 

You put a lot of emphasis on obedience is most of your posts. Obedience is the DB's second attribute, not the first. We are unsure as to how the two attributes work. However, if we based ourselves on our two more fleshed out example, namely Kaladin and Shallan, we can theorize the important attribute to attract a spren is the first one, not the second. Kaladin is protective before being leading. Leadership is still something he's got to work on while I feel he may have learned enough on protection. Protection is what drew Syl as well. Shallan is creative before being honest, that one is a no brainer. What attracted Pattern was not her honesty, but her ability to create great lies. I thus think the fact Adolin appears so obedient to Dalinar (out of love ) is not an indication he could belong to the DB. Not to say he couldn't, but the examples we currently have force me to conclude the first attribute is what matters to sprens when comes the time to choose. Besides, even if I am dead wrong about this, Adolin more or less put the nail into the coffin of obedience when he knifed Sadeas..........

 

 

 

Well there were A LOT of people disappointed with the ending to Mistborn, so I don't think that's a major concern to him, As long as he feels he's written the story in they he felt it needed to be. 

 

The ending of Mistborn made sense. Would Adolin not reviving his Blade make sense? Currently, no. It wouldn't. Could it make sense to have (for example) Eshonai do it? It's Brandon story, he can do as he wishes. However I, as a reader, would feel dispirited if someone else than Adolin revived a Blade. I agree my feelings on the matter are not a valid arguments, so you may browse over it.

 

 

1. I hope I don't come across as a jerk at all, it's hard to tell in forums. I've really enjoyed this back and forth. You've made me think of things in ways I haven't before and that always a good thing.

 

As long as you don't downvote someone for simply disagreeing with you or you don't tell someone they are dumb they are for not agreeing with you or you don't start to attack the person writing the message as oppose to the arguments at hand, then you are fine. With me. I love character talk    I don't care if people don't agree, I care though if it gets personal, against me. I can only speak for myself though. I can't say for other forumers. I must be one of the most hated posters around here, so what I personally say or think honestly hardly matters.

[Guest]

Welcome to the Adolin-the-Edgedancer side! We have chicken. And you get cologne even in prison.

 

We are handsome, charming, refined and rich princes by day. Ruthless, elegant killers by night, jumping from roof top to roof top to provide justice to those forgotten by the law. And we break every single one of them on the way there.

 

Welcome

[kari-no-sugata]

It's sometimes interesting to go back and carefully re-read the first chapter from a particular character's POV, since there's often a load of hints about them and also foreshadowing.

 

Kaladin's first POV is a bit unusual, probably because he's so beaten down but does hint at a number of things. In his second POV chapter just a mention of Amaram is enough send Kaladin ranting about wanting to violently kill him, even though he'd just claimed he didn't care about what lead to his situation. That's both hinting at his backstory and foreshadowing book 2.

 

Shallan's first chapter has all sorts of goodies but there's quite a big yet subtle hint in the very first paragraph: she casually thinks how she had dreams of travelling but never expected to and instead to spend her life sequestered in her father's manor then her arranged husband's manor. It's subtle because there's no particular emotions attached except the surprise of freedom. By the end of WoR I very much doubt Shallan would think the same thing - freedom is no longer a surprise but a necessity.

 

Dalinar's very first line is "Unite them", which is basically a shorter version of his eventual Bondsmith Ideal.

 

Adolin's first chapter is kinda: I hate Sadeas, I worry about my father, I think my living legend and beloved father is going senile, damnation that Sadeas, I'm not interested in this hunt at all and would rather be doing other things, I hate what I think Sadeas is planning to do to my father and want to prevent it happening. Adolin's hatred of Sadeas is entirely grounded in his love of Dalinar - it's not that Sadeas has done anything to Adolin as an individual, but someone attacking Dalinar in any shape or form is something Adolin takes very personally (Renarin too but to a lesser extent).

[Guest]

Adolin's first chapter is kinda: I hate Sadeas, I worry about my father, I think my living legend and beloved father is going senile, damnation that Sadeas, I'm not interested in this hunt at all and would rather be doing other things, I hate what I think Sadeas is planning to do to my father and want to prevent it happening. Adolin's hatred of Sadeas is entirely grounded in his love of Dalinar - it's not that Sadeas has done anything to Adolin as an individual, but someone attacking Dalinar in any shape or form is something Adolin takes very personally (Renarin too but to a lesser extent).

 

Another important point about Adolin's first POV... The hunt. He hates the hunt. He despises the hunt and when Dalinar goes on to lecture him about it, he nearly rolls his eyes out thinking "Not again....."

 

"Why don't we talk about the hunt?" Renarin said. "Aren't you excited?"

"Bah," Adolin said. "I never find hunts as interesting as everyone says they're going to be. I don't care how big the beast it - in the end, it;s really just butchery."

Now, dueling, that was exciting. The feel of the Shardblade in your hand, of facing someone crafty, skilled, and careful. Main against man, strength against strength, mind against mind. Hunting some dumb beast just couldn't compare to that.

 

...

 

"Father, " Adolin said. "Maybe the king was right. Perhaps we should have moved on quickly. I'd rather have this entire hunt over with it."

Dalinar looked at him. "When I was your age, I looked forward to a hunt like this. Taking down a greatshell was the highlight of a young man's year"

Not this again, Adolin thought. Why was everyone so offended that he didn't find hunts exciting? "it's just an oversized chull, Father."

"These oversized chulls grow to fifty feet tall and are capable of crushing even a man in Shardplate."

"Yes, " Adolin said, "and so we'll bait it for hours while baking in the hot sun. If it decides to show up, we'll pelt it with arrows, only closing in once it's so weak it can barely resist as we hack it to death with Shardblades. Very honorable."

"It's not a duel, " Dalinar said, "It's a hunt. A grand tradition."

 

Some more tip bits on Adolin and hunts, this time from WoR.

 

"Oh, come on. We could look at all of the animals, and you could tell me which ones you've bravely slaughtered while hunting. It'll be very diverting."

"I actually despise hunting," Adolin said, as if he hadn't noticed. "No real contest to it".

 

I think it is quite clear Adolin hates hunting. He is the odd one out for not liking it. He thinks it is dishonorable and hates butchering those creatures. In other words, he does not like killing something not stepping on equal footing with him. I'd bet Adolin was the kind of child who hated seeing the other ones pulled the legs out of spiders.

 

While I'm at it, here are a few other quotes from Adolin's very first POV.

 

It all made Adolin feel sick. Dalinar was the Blackthorn, a genius of the battlefield and a living legend. Together, he and his brother had reunited Alethkar's warring highprinces after centuries of strife. He had defeated countless challengers in duels, had won dozens of battles. The entire kingdom looked up to him. And now this.

What did you do, as a son, when the man you loved - the greatest man alive - started to lose his wits?

 

We have to keep an eye on the man, Renarin, Adolin thought. He knows Father is weakening. He'll try to strike.

 

Storming man, he thought. Leave my father alone.

 

Dalinar did not yield, his expression as immobile as the rocks around them. Seeing him like that - firm, unyielding before a challenge - made Adolin smile with pride.

 

How can the others whisper that he's a coward? Can't they see his wisdom?

 

He as beginning to feel an odd longing. Most of the older men in the army,- even those only a few years older than Adolin - had fought alongside his father during the glory days. Adolin found himself jealous of all of those men who had known his father and had seen him fight when he hadn't been so wrapped up in the Codes.

The changes in Dalinar had begun with the death of his brother. That terrible day was when everything had started to go wrong. The loss of Galivar had nearly crushed Dalinar, and Adolin would never forgive the Parshendi for bringing his father such pain. Never. Men fought on the Plains for different reasons, but this was why Adolin had come. Perhaps if they beat the Parshendi, his father would go back to the man he had been. Perhaps those ghostly delusions that haunted him would vanish.

 

Adolin does not only love his father, he worships him. His father, his hero, but he never knew the hero. In fact, I'd wager he hardly even knew the man before they came to the Shattered Plains. He knows the story of a man who conquered a country, he knows battle story no doubt he has been told over and over again as a child. He is standing next to that man, but he has not meet him. Not the Blackthtorn. His hero. Never. So he yearns and he hates everyone he believes caused the disappearance of the man he wished he had known. He is fiercely protective of what's left of the Blackthorn. He loves him and would never ever let anyone or anything harm him, not while he is still standing.

 

It is not obedience nor bravery I read here, but love. Love from the eye of a child who still thinks his father is the greatest, the best and the strongest. Who still believes, even though he is no child anymore, his father is always right. And he'll do anything for him. Anything.

[Localconfusi0n]

 

  

I don't know if Eshonai is trapped in her mind. The screaming could be her Blade being terrified by the proximity of a voidspren.  Dead Blades scream when touched by surgebinders, why not when bonded to a Voidbringer? If the radiant spren and the voidspren somehow manage to co-exist, this is a game changer.

  

 

 

All the Eshonai PoV's we have after she has the Voispren bond very clearly show how unwilling she is and we have her being horrified about wat has happened, being unable to speak her thoughts, and a complete lack of control of herself. I would provide quotes but my copy of WoR was stolen (which I'm incredibly angry about because it was one of the few books i bought the first day it came out )

 

Also, i really hope they can co-exist because thats what im looking forward to seeing, whether they can or not.

[CabbageHead he/him]

  I think we'll find that Adolin leans more towards Stoneward or Releaser, if he ends up a Radiant, but that's strictly a guess.  The alternative, Edgedancer, would be if he is actually somehow forming a bond with his Shardblade.

 

I've been doing another re-read, and I'd actually lean towards Edgedancer & re-awakening his Blade. Beside the obvious fact that he talks to the dead Blade like a person, there are what I think are pretty important clues in his personality. The following quote is quite telling:

 

"When Simol was informed of the arrival of the Edgedancers, a concealed consternation and terror, as is common in such cases, fell upon him; although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants. "

 

Adolin is pointed out several times to be a very relaxed, friendly individual, not at all as demanding as his peers. He is highly refined, seen several times so far idly checking out the latest fashions from Liafor, so he can remain an "elegant thing of beauty", And, he most certainly has a deadly grace about him; while other shardbearers we see stay in one fighting stance, Adolin constantly switches between them mid strike, even though he favours Windstance. Finally, on the subject of him & Sadeas, I would note that the Edgedancers we have seen so far (Lift definitely, Ym possibly although probably a Truthwatcher) have all been prosecuted for crimes.

[StormingTexan he/him]

You guys have convinced me Adolin will be an Edgedancer IF he becomes a Radiant. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by StormingTexan

[Loni she/her]

The Adolin KR Order discussion is fabulous! However, I would like to add something to an earlier aspect of the conversation. What is the definition of a Radiant?

 

It really kind of is just a title. A title that shares the same qualifications as a fully-powered surgebinder due to the enforced system, but a title bestowed by an organization nonetheless. A true Radiant will be a full-powered surgebinder, but the reverse is a different matter, in my opinion.
 

I think of Radiant and Knight Radiant as two different titles. Radiant is almost synonymous with surgebinder; it represents someone who has begun the progression of oaths and has access to surgebinding powers. A true KR would be one who has completed all the oaths. It would make sense in an organization such as the KR to have titles/names for the lower levels, those still learning their powers and oaths. So, surgebinder (introductory oath), Radiant (2-? oaths), and KR (all oaths). All that's required to be a Radiant is a progression of oaths (or in the case of the non-oath Lightweavers, a progression of self-understanding). However, in any organization, you run the risk of all top-tier hierarchy being eliminated in some way, so the lower ranked members take the title of leaders, jumping their way to full KR without the oaths.

 

Basically, in my version of the terms, anyone who has progressed past the first, spren-led oath, would be a Radiant. In normal, full-functioning Orders, a KR would be someone who has trained and progressed through all the oaths. In times of emergency or in special cases, the title KR could be granted to someone without the oaths IF leadership was needed.

 

So, Jasnah, Renarin, Kaladin, Dalinar, Lift, and Shallan are all likely Radiants (have said the first two oaths or more). While, Dalinar, Kaladin, Renarin, and Shallan are KR simply because they are the current leaders of the Orders thus far. I

[Aleksiel]

The Adolin KR Order discussion is fabulous! However, I would like to add something to an earlier aspect of the conversation. What is the definition of a Radiant?

 

I think of Radiant and Knight Radiant as two different titles. Radiant is almost synonymous with surgebinder; it represents someone who has begun the progression of oaths and has access to surgebinding powers. A true KR would be one who has completed all the oaths. It would make sense in an organization such as the KR to have titles/names for the lower levels, those still learning their powers and oaths. So, surgebinder (introductory oath), Radiant (2-? oaths), and KR (all oaths). All that's required to be a Radiant is a progression of oaths (or in the case of the non-oath Lightweavers, a progression of self-understanding). However, in any organization, you run the risk of all top-tier hierarchy being eliminated in some way, so the lower ranked members take the title of leaders, jumping their way to full KR without the oaths.

 

Basically, in my version of the terms, anyone who has progressed past the first, spren-led oath, would be a Radiant. In normal, full-functioning Orders, a KR would be someone who has trained and progressed through all the oaths. In times of emergency or in special cases, the title KR could be granted to someone without the oaths IF leadership was needed.

 

So, Jasnah, Renarin, Kaladin, Dalinar, Lift, and Shallan are all likely Radiants (have said the first two oaths or more). While, Dalinar, Kaladin, Renarin, and Shallan are KR simply because they are the current leaders of the Orders thus far. I

 

 

Kaladin managed to surgebind before saying any oaths, so a surgebinder hasn't necessarily said any of the Words.

 

If we take a look at what the KR used to be, they had Ryshadium, access to Plate (even if they chose not to use it), Blades and had said five Oaths. None of our current characters covers all of these.

 

While I agree a KR should be used only for someone who has said all Five Words, I see no reason for Radiant to not just be short for Knight Radiant. Dalinar uses 'Radiant' too freely if you ask me. Teft on the other hand insisted Kaladin is still a surgebinder even after two Oaths.

 

However, arguing about definitions doesn't seem productive. But it would be nice if the fandom would settle for something, because until then it can be confusing in discussions. Although I suppose we better wait for Brandon's definitions.

[Guest]

If we take a look at what the KR used to be, they had Ryshadium, access to Plate (even if they chose not to use it), Blades and had said five Oaths. None of our current characters covers all of these.

 

Careful. Brandon stated the Rhysadium were not reserved to the Knight Radiants exclusively... 

[Aleksiel]

Careful. Brandon stated the Rhysadium were not reserved to the Knight Radiants exclusively... 

 

They weren't only for them, but the KR had/could have Ryshadium; like Plate. Even if we disregard Ryshaduims, the KR of the past are still different from any of our present surgebibders/Radiants.