Calling all Hazekillers!

[Guest]

I believe a flame thrower would be excellent. Burns are extremely painful.

[hoidhunter he/him]

Great ideas all around! I'd try to recruit you to my guild that aims to protect the Investiture-challenged, hoidhunter, but if you preferred to make your own then I would simply offer an alliance.

Hazekillers make no formal alliances...but I don't see why we couldn't work together...our goals do somewhat align...by the way...join the hazekiller Corp and you'll get an aluminum foil hat!

[Voidus]

I believe a flame thrower would be excellent. Burns are extremely painful.

Yeah but you'd have to lug a heavy massive tank around for about 5 seconds of use, considering the mobility that many allomancers possess I'm not sure they'd be that effective.

[Shaggai]

Both, although the heart acts as a kind of universal bind point I believe.

Ah, okay. So hBullets would be best with either a sniper rifle or a machine gun.

[IAmTheBeard]

I think that hemalurgic spikes may actually have some usefulness, especially against bloodmakers. Do we know for sure that they instantly kill when they pierce? Because stabbing a bloodmaker in the heart won't necessarily kill them, but if we do it to charge a hemalurgic spike, then at the very least it should steal their feruchemy. Right? I don't know... It seems like a bit of a speculation, not to mention the fact that hemalurgy would be beyond the knowledge of hazekillers, for the most part. If we did have that knowledge, though, and weren't bothered by using it, then I think it's definitely something our hazekiller guild would at least attempt.

 

The inquisitors did combat spiking with just a regular spike, though they had Allomantic pewter and Feruchemical steel, so maybe it wouldn't work for us. If all we have to do is hit the heart, I'd suggest a spear. Most bloodmakers would hardly pay attention to someone coming at them with a spear.

 

Another thing I'd like to add is weaponized oil. Glass capsules of something very slippery would be extremely effective against pewter users, bloodmakers, and steelrunners. Allomantic pewter might be able to keep their balance, though it would still help. 

And you could also set it on fire. Few people, metalborn or otherwise, can maintain their focus when they're on fire.

[natc]

I remember something about being able to heal hemalurgic damage with enough gold charge, though I forget if that's for the recipient or the victim.

You just have to spike out their gold really. We really have to and figure out the bind point for Herald immortality.

[Shardcellist]

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 13th, 2014

Ask the Author: Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

KURKISTAN (GOODREADS)

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead.

 

KURKISTAN

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

[Shaggai]

 

 

INTERVIEW: Aug 13th, 2014

Ask the Author: Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

KURKISTAN (GOODREADS)

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead.

 

KURKISTAN

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

 

If you spiked out his Feruchemy, he wouldn't be able to use his Goldminds. It's likely that he would no longer be able to burn them for health either. And if that all failed, take his Identity.

[Moogle]

If you spiked out his Feruchemy, he wouldn't be able to use his Goldminds. It's likely that he would no longer be able to burn them for health either. And if that all failed, take his Identity.

 

He could in fact burn his goldminds for health and to heal back his Feruchemical gold. Kurk's compiled all the WoBs and written on it at length, but basically any Allomancer can burn a Feruchemical storage and get a super-boost of that attribute if you do the right tricks for identity. (And Miles wouldn't need those tricks; if he stored the health himelf, he could burn it with just Allomantic gold.) It's lead to the wonderful thought experiment of Scadrian hospitals keeping un-identitied goldminds around and Allomantic gold spikes to give to critically wounded patients.

 

Will edit in a link.

 

Edit: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4087-shared-compounding/

Edited February 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

He could in fact burn his goldminds for health and to heal back his Feruchemical gold. Kurk's compiled all the WoBs and written on it at length, but basically any Allomancer can burn a Feruchemical storage and get a super-boost of that attribute if you do the right tricks for identity. (And Miles wouldn't need those tricks; if he stored the health himelf, he could burn it with just Allomantic gold.) It's lead to the wonderful thought experiment of Scadrian hospitals keeping un-identitied goldminds around and Allomantic gold spikes to give to critically wounded patients.

 

Will edit in a link.

 

Edit: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4087-shared-compounding/

Hmm. Well, spike out his Identity then. That should do it.

[Kaymyth she/her]

He could in fact burn his goldminds for health and to heal back his Feruchemical gold. Kurk's compiled all the WoBs and written on it at length, but basically any Allomancer can burn a Feruchemical storage and get a super-boost of that attribute if you do the right tricks for identity. (And Miles wouldn't need those tricks; if he stored the health himelf, he could burn it with just Allomantic gold.) It's lead to the wonderful thought experiment of Scadrian hospitals keeping un-identitied goldminds around and Allomantic gold spikes to give to critically wounded patients.

 

Will edit in a link.

 

Edit: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4087-shared-compounding/

 

The potential flaw in this theory is that if his Feruchemy were spiked away, he would no longer possess his affinity for his own stored attributes; the spiking actually removes the piece of his soul that is bound up in his Identity as a Feruchemist.  At that point, he may well become an ordinary Allomancer and only be able to access the standard Allomantic gold. 

 

If this is the case, then spiking an Investiture away also removes the target's ability to use that Investiture.  So spiking Miles's Feruchemy would very likely just kill him.

[Moogle]

Hmm. Well, spike out his Identity then. That should do it.

 

Not sure if that's something you can spike, but it wouldn't work most likely. A Feruchemist storing identity is strongly theorized to be able to tap the metalminds of others. (Though, this is based on MAG speculation, etc.) Spiking Miles' identity would most likely just let him burn anyone's metalminds.

 

The potential flaw in this theory is that if his Feruchemy were spiked away, he would no longer possess his affinity for his own stored attributes; the spiking actually removes the piece of his soul that is bound up in his Identity as a Feruchemist.  At that point, he may well become an ordinary Allomancer and only be able to access the standard Allomantic gold. 

 

If this is the case, then spiking an Investiture away also removes the target's ability to use that Investiture.  So spiking Miles's Feruchemy would very likely just kill him.

 

We don't know that spiking your Feruchemical gold would change your identity enough to cause you to be unable to burn your metalminds. I don't believe it would, personally. If Miles is coherent enough after being spiked to still know his name is Miles, I expect he still has enough of his own identity to operate his metalminds. Metalminds probably aren't that finnicky. Everyone changes over time, anyways, and as far as we know you can still operate metalminds you charged years earlier. And even if he had a slightly different identity, I suspect he'd still be able to get at the metalminds (if at a reduced efficiency).

 

To expand on the last point: Feruchemists can't store an attribute to zero (can't be weightless, but can get close, for example), but we know you can burn metalminds charged by a Feruchemist storing identity in principle. (See previous link to Kurk's theory.) Any Feruchemist storing identity and making a 'blank-identity metalmind' will likely still have some small amount of identity left, and apparently this isn't enough to cause issues for those burning the almost-but-not-quite-blank-identity metalminds.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

Not sure if that's something you can spike, but it wouldn't work most likely. A Feruchemist storing identity is strongly theorized to be able to tap the metalminds of others. (Though, this is based on MAG speculation, etc.) Spiking Miles' identity would most likely just let him burn anyone's metalminds.

 

 

We don't know that spiking your Feruchemical gold would change your identity enough to cause you to be unable to burn your metalminds. I don't believe it would, personally. If Miles is coherent enough after being spiked to still know his name is Miles, I expect he still has enough of his own identity to operate his metalminds. Metalminds probably aren't that finnicky. Everyone changes over time, anyways, and as far as we know you can still operate metalminds you charged years earlier. And even if he had a slightly different identity, I suspect he'd still be able to get at the metalminds (if at a reduced efficiency).

 

To expand on the last point: Feruchemists can't store an attribute to zero (can't be weightless, but can get close, for example), but we know you can burn metalminds charged by a Feruchemist storing identity in principle. (See previous link to Kurk's theory.) Any Feruchemist storing identity and making a 'blank-identity metalmind' will likely still have some small amount of identity left, and apparently this isn't enough to cause issues for those burning the almost-but-not-quite-blank-identity metalminds.

Spiking your Feruchemical gold probably wouldn't affect his identity enough, but spiking the identity itself might. It's Spiritual, so it probably can be spiked. The question is whether it would be possible to spike it to a degree that wouldn't allow him access.

[Moogle]

Spiking your Feruchemical gold probably wouldn't affect his identity enough, but spiking the identity itself might. It's Spiritual, so it probably can be spiked. The question is whether it would be possible to spike it to a degree that wouldn't allow him access.

 

I kinda phrased this poorly in my last post, but the theory is that if you spiked away all his identity he'd still have access to his metalminds, since being at low-identity seems to allow you to access the metalminds of others.

[Shaggai]

I kinda phrased this poorly in my last post, but the theory is that if you spiked away all his identity he'd still have access to his metalminds, since being at low-identity seems to allow you to access the metalminds of others.

No, your phrasing was fine. I understood you. I was just wondering if it would be possible to take part of the Identity without taking it all.

[Kaymyth she/her]

We don't know that spiking your Feruchemical gold would change your identity enough to cause you to be unable to burn your metalminds. I don't believe it would, personally. If Miles is coherent enough after being spiked to still know his name is Miles, I expect he still has enough of his own identity to operate his metalminds. Metalminds probably aren't that finnicky. Everyone changes over time, anyways, and as far as we know you can still operate metalminds you charged years earlier. And even if he had a slightly different identity, I suspect he'd still be able to get at the metalminds (if at a reduced efficiency).

 

But we know that spiking steals the power itself, which should include the ability to tap reserves of that power.  Sorry, I must respectfully disagree; I am convinced that if you spike away Miles's Feruchemy, he dies without even the slightest bit of pining for the fjords. 

[Moogle]

But we know that spiking steals the power itself, which should include the ability to tap reserves of that power.  Sorry, I must respectfully disagree; I am convinced that if you spike away Miles's Feruchemy, he dies without even the slightest bit of pining for the fjords. 

 

Well, my thinking is that the ability to tap reserves of a Feruchemical power is not a requirement to burn metalminds. Non-Feruchemist Allomancers can burn metalminds and get Feruchemical power from it, so Miles should be able to do it even if he can't tap normally with his Feruchemical gold gone. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this until something like this shows up in future Mistborn novels.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Voidus]

He wouldn't be tapping it though, he'd be burning it.

[Kaymyth she/her]

Well, my thinking is that the ability to tap reserves of a Feruchemical power is not a requirement to burn metalminds. Non-Feruchemist Allomancers can burn metalminds and get Feruchemical power from it, so Miles should be able to do it even if he can't tap normally with his Feruchemical gold gone. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this until something like this shows up in future Mistborn novels.

 

 

He wouldn't be tapping it though, he'd be burning it.

 

But Allomancers burning a Feruchemically charged metal will only get the Allomantic power out of it (WoB that's out there somewhere).  Unless, as is stated in the linked theories, their Identity has been messed with somehow.  So, strip away Miles's Feruchemy and he becomes an ordinary Allomancer with access to only the Allomantic side of the power.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Kaymyth

[Oudeis he/him]

Non-Feruchemist Allomancers can burn metalminds and get Feruchemical power from it

 

Wait, what? What's your source on this? Because we see exactly this scenario happen in the books and the exact opposite thing happens.

[Moogle]

Wait, what? What's your source on this? Because we see exactly this scenario happen in the books and the exact opposite thing happens.

 

My link in my previous post had it. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4087-shared-compounding/page-3#entry88517

 

It's not automatic. The source of my disagreement with Kaymyth is how the identity requirements work. Allomancers can't burn metalminds normally because their identity does not match the metalmind, but with identity shenanigans the identity mismatch no longer becomes a problem.

 

I believe Miles' identity would still match his goldminds if he lost his Feruchemical gold ability, and so he could burn the metalminds without the identity shenanigans spoken of in my link above. Kaymyth disagrees. At this point, we just need a WoB or new Mistborn book to settle matters.

 

Edit: Thinking more about it, isn't there a WoB somewhere that if you received a spike from a Feruchemist, you could access their metalminds? That would suggest Kaymyth is right, but I can't find this WoB. I've only ever heard of it secondhand, never seen the actual quote.

 

Edit2: It's from the MAG. Unfortunate. My prior is that the MAG is usually right, so I will shift myself more to believing Kymyth's theory, but I still find it more likely that Miles could burn his old metalminds.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Kaymyth she/her]

That pretty much sums it up.  I'm convinced that the part of Miles's Identity that the metalmind recognizes as "Miles" is tied up with his Feruchemy, and thus sliced off when spiked.  It is stated that spiking steals a piece of a person's soul.  On a metaphysical level, the soul *is* one's identity.  Spiking a person alters them on a very fundamental level and causes severe trauma above and beyond the physical.

 

I also think that my take on it is supported by Brandon's misunderstanding of the question at first; it appears that he was thinking Feruchemy when asked about Allomancy, thus the "He'd probably die" response.

[Moogle]

I think it's interesting to think about how much soul change would be required before you could no longer access your old metalminds.

 

Imagine you receive a Hemalurgic spike. Your soul is now different. Do your old metalminds work? Why or why not?

 

I had an old theory (which rambled and only dealt with this as a small subsection) about "identity repelling identity" (actually supported by an SA3 reading, I should go re-write that post) being at the core of why Surgebinders can take back in their Surgebindings but not others, and why Feruchemists can only access their own metalminds. The consequences of the theory are that Feruchemists storing identity would not 'repel' the power within someone else's metalmind very much, having very little on their own, and so could take it in. Similarly, if an identity-less Feruchemist stored, someone else's identity wouldn't clash with it because the stored charge has little identity. I liked that theory. Very elegant.

 

Anyways, moving on to apply it here: I'd predict via this theory that soul trauma, like being spiked or having things stolen via spike, would change your identity enough to have your new identity slightly repel the charge within a metalmind. But if you only changed a little, you could still burn/tap your old metalminds, as you'd still mostly be compatible. But that still doesn't help the disagreement here, because if metalminds really only care about one aspect of your identity (which transfers along with your Feruchemical power), then the fact that you're still mostly the same doesn't matter.

[natc]

So, if a feruchemist storing identity can theoretically tap other people's metalminds, what happens if he tries to tap someone else's identity?

[Unodus he/him]

One thing I don't think has been discussed is countering Atium

 

Atium basically makes a mistborn invincible, but it is limited in supply. Similar to Fortuity from Steelheart, the best way to defeat someone burning Atium is to checkmate them- or stall long enough for their Atium to run out. Basically, it requires either an all out attack or an all out defense. Trying to parry or feign an attack on a Atiumburner would be useless. The best course of action would be to be unpredictable, so that the Atiumburner can't foresee how to counter your move. Due to its rarity, an Allomancer will only use it in moments in desperation- it also means that mostly mistborn use atium, as Gnats rarely discover their powers- never mind have the resources to fund them- meaning there are other weakness's to exploit. A twinborn using Atium to store age would be essentially immortal (ie: the lord ruler), however- this also puts them at a disadvantage as merely removing the storage would revert the Twinborn back to their original state (I assume), which would leave them vulnerable if you can force them to take their elderly form.

 

In terms of lurchers and coinshots- using Aluminum or its alloys as bullets would negate the need for complicated bullet mechanics- as they cannot be pushed or pulled. Having a Magneto helmet made of Aluminum could also negate the power of Rioting and soothing (I assume). So basically, Aluminum is Hazekiller Gold- as it isn't affected by Allomancy, meaning you can still use all metals assuming you make it an alloy of Aluminum.

 

Tineyes are already vulnerable to bright lights and noises, using a variety of flares could force tineyes to drop their powers.

Seekers can be overwhelmed by large quantities of metal all around, effectively blinding them- a well placed "smoke" grenade that throws up clouds of metal powder instead of smoke would force a seeker to drop its power.

 

The secret for defeating Allomancers, though- I feel, is not through direct combat, but rather through setting a variety of traps. Using snares and mines are the best way to defeat an Allomancer, I feel- as Allomancers rely on mobility to outmaneuver their opponents. 

 

Anyway, those are my ideas :V