Nicrosil's feruchemical purpose?

[Observer]

Does Szeth have metal on him? Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling, as it's an Invested object. But he'd still have trouble getting to them if he had a clasp on his shoes, for example. He doesn't carry a lot of metal, but he might have some.

In the above quote from Brandon, somebody asked if a Shardblade could be pushed or pulled with allomancy while doing one of those MB vs WoK things. Brandon said that it could not, due to it being too heavily invested. Once more we get the word "Investure"

This is slightly far-fetched, but what if it's the same reason you have difficulty pulling on metals in the body? So by storing investure, you'd be able to tap it and prevent yourself (and maybe what you touch?) from being allomantically affected. Like being walking aluminum.

Thoughts?

Edited August 25, 2012 by Observer

[Eric]

Not a bad theory. Storing investiture would then make you more vulnerable to having metal in your body affected and emotional allomancy.

Now there's a thought. Would being able to compound investiture have allowed Marsh to resist Ruin's influence?

[Observer]

That actually sounds like it would work.

Would Aluminum have done that too, or is Ruin's a different kind of Allomancy?

EDIT: Stroke of genius. What if Investure is the reason Dilaf was immune to Aons? They took the investure from fifty others and dumped it into one guy, making him effectively untouchable by the AonDor. This makes me wonder if Allomancy would work on him or anything he was touching/near. My answer is: probably not.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Observer

[Eric]

...Good question. I'd hazard that you'd need more like an aluminum helmet than the hat lining, peehaps even aluminum around the hemalurgic spike points. If it works at all, you have to shield all his entry points. Someone should ask Brandon about this.

Haven't read Elantris yet. It's on my to-do list, but it's still a bit from the top.

[Voidus]

EDIT: Stroke of genius. What if Investure is the reason Dilaf was immune to Aons? They took the investure from fifty others and dumped it into one guy, making him effectively untouchable by the AonDor. This makes me wonder if Allomancy would work on him or anything he was touching/near. My answer is: probably not.

Since this is in the Mistborn forum I'd refrain from discussing anything too spoilery about Elantris, it's an interesting thought though, maybe make a new topic in Elantris or General Discussion?

[Windrunner]

Yeah, if we're discussing Shardblades, nicrosil, and Dakhor we've probably eclipsed the Mistborn boards. No need for a new topic though, I'll just move this one.

[Aminar]

...Good question. I'd hazard that you'd need more like an aluminum helmet than the hat lining, peehaps even aluminum around the hemalurgic spike points. If it works at all, you have to shield all his entry points. Someone should ask Brandon about this.

Haven't read Elantris yet. It's on my to-do list, but it's still a bit from the top.

I don't think Aluminum stops ruin. Aluminum spikes can be made They store certain types of Allomancy. If Ruin couldn't control those it would be awfully strange.

I dont thin Marsh-even compounding investiture could have stopped ruins involvement. No matter how much power he stored he would only be stealing from Preservation... Which makes me wonder if an investiture compounder could turn harmony to ruin... Yipes.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Aminar

[Observer]

When you use Allomancy, all you draw on is the Preservation within you, not the actual Preservation. Sazed's balance is safe for now.

[Aminar]

Compounders seem to draw a bit more than just on what is within them... They seem a mite bit scary. Allomancy is end positive after all. I'm just debating if with hundreds(maybe thoisands or more) metalminds if You couldn't drain a shard and then become the shardbearer.

[Observer]

Once again, I don't think that's possible. Not to mention that Sazed can probably deny you his power when you attempt to use it.

[Windrunner]

When you use Allomancy, all you draw on is the Preservation within you, not the actual Preservation. Sazed's balance is safe for now.

Actually, the point of Allomancy is that you aren't drawing on the bit of Preservation inside you. You're "Preserving" your spiritual aspect and simply drawing more energy through that fragment from the greater whole that is Preservation. Why this doesn't seem to effect the strength of the Shard is unknown. Perhaps because you're following Preservation's intent?

[Aminar]

Actually, the point of Allomancy is that you aren't drawing on the bit of Preservation inside you. You're "Preserving" your spiritual aspect and simply drawing more energy through that fragment from the greater whole that is Preservation. Why this doesn't seem to effect the strength of the Shard is unknown. Perhaps because you're following Preservation's intent?

I would guess because metal acts as a powers ource for Ruin and Preservation. However Feruchemy draws on power you've stored. I've always heard the power of a compounder draws straight from Preservation like Allomancy, tricking the system. I imagine most of the time that power filters back to the Preservation pretty quickly but a compounder with enough knowledge might... Just might be able to drain the preservation from Harmony making him into Ruin. Doesn't that seem like a story Brandon would tell? It feels like the way he'd work things to me. And it scares me a little because I like Sazed.

[Voidus]

Sorry to bring this debate back up again but I would like to point out that the power for Allomancy doesn't necessarily come from Preservation, some of us think that there is a universal Power of Creation that powers all the magic systems (Also presumably what refills the power at the Well)

My main problem is that we know from a quote from Brandon (and from HoA) that Preservation can power Allomancy directly but doing so requires expending power in a way that he was unlikely to do, so if Preservation is always powering Allomancy why would it be different if the Allomancer didn't burn metals?

Also just to note, I don't believe that Compounding increases the speed at which you can burn metals so it wouldn't use any more of the power anyway, you'd have to be continually Nicrosil or Duralumin burning, which I believe would probably just kill you

[Aminar]

It gives you 10* the feruchemical power you put into the metalmind. It's unclear if you burn it at the same rate you burn the allomantic metal. But even if you were burning instant burn metals constantly I don't think it would kill you. But that means you can burn alot of nicro really quickly. Eep the power storage... That said, Compounding Nicro might do nothing... So far it seems you store generic feruchemical power. You might be unable to burn it for anything...

[Voidus]

It gives you 10* the feruchemical power you put into the metalmind. It's unclear if you burn it at the same rate you burn the allomantic metal. But even if you were burning instant burn metals constantly I don't think it would kill you. But that means you can burn alot of nicro really quickly. Eep the power storage... That said, Compounding Nicro might do nothing... So far it seems you store generic feruchemical power. You might be unable to burn it for anything...

Depends what metal, I think tin/pewter would almost certainly kill you since even regular Savantism is dangerous the others, not sure but I think Iron/Steel are the only ones you would definitely be safe with, since we've seen those Duralumin burned with no ill effects and I can't see how you would be killed by them unless you accidentally instinctively pushed at some fast moving piece of metal without bracing yourself. Copper would probably be safe too. Rioting and Soothing would be more dangerous to those around you, I think Copper would be the best bet, either that or Nicrosil burning Duralumin since that would do absolutely nothing. This does raise an interesting question though, is there a Super-Savant level? if you Duralumin burned copper for long enough you might become a super-Savant in it and have a coppercloud extending for miles, sorry got off topic a bit at the end there

[Aminar]

I think you're misunderstanding compounding.

It gives you the feruchemical power not the allomantic one. Hence why the gold compounder heals super fast. His allomancy is unaffected.

We've seen Sazed draw on huge stores of feruchemical power. His body accomodated for parts of it. The only true danger is drawing more than you can use independantly. A steel compounder has to be careful not to go too fast and trip. A Pewter compounder can only use so much strength before he dislocates his joints with the force of his punches(although if he burns allomantic pewter too he'll be pretty beastly and adaptable(if that is possible, I don't think it's ever stated.) You'd have to be careful with Tin too, but I don't see the affects being deadly...

[Voidus]

Darn sorry, got mixed up with another topic where someone was just talking about Duralumin burning metals in my defence I haven't slept for around 30 hours.

So yes, ignore everything I just said, I do know how compounding works and in the event of compounding you could just instantly store the attribute back again so no dangers at all associated with that.

EDIT: Cookies for everyone to apologise for my misunderstanding!

Edited August 26, 2012 by Voidus

[Aminar]

Darn sorry, got mixed up with another topic where someone was just talking about Duralumin burning metals in my defence I haven't slept for around 30 hours.

So yes, ignore everything I just said, I do know how compounding works and in the event of compounding you could just instantly store the attribute back again so no dangers at all associated with that.

EDIT: Cookies for everyone to apologise for my misunderstanding!

I thought it was strange... All is forgiven. Is that cookie coming by mail then?

[Voidus]

I thought it was strange... All is forgiven. Is that cookie coming by mail then?

Yes everyone gets a cookie in the mail! just er.. ignore the metallic taste of them and remember that I would definitely not use this as a means of secretly raising my own hemalurgically spiked army with which to challenge the admins appreciate feedback on the taste of the cookies

[Windrunner]

Sorry to bring this debate back up again but I would like to point out that the power for Allomancy doesn't necessarily come from Preservation, some of us think that there is a universal Power of Creation that powers all the magic systems (Also presumably what refills the power at the Well)

My main problem is that we know from a quote from Brandon (and from HoA) that Preservation can power Allomancy directly but doing so requires expending power in a way that he was unlikely to do, so if Preservation is always powering Allomancy why would it be different if the Allomancer didn't burn metals?

Yeah, PoI versus PoC isn't really what this topic is discussing. You should see some interesting stuff on that front before too terribly long. I apologize if you feel I was favoring one too much (although I don't make a secret about which one I support). Regardless of that, my point still stands. Whether or not you believe Preservation is the source of the power or merely a doorway, you are definitely not using the power of your spiritual aspect to fuel Allomancy. We agree on that, correct?

[Cheese Ninja]

Compounders seem to draw a bit more than just on what is within them... They seem a mite bit scary. Allomancy is end positive after all. I'm just debating if with hundreds(maybe thoisands or more) metalminds if You couldn't drain a shard and then become the shardbearer.

I made this same point a little while after Alloy of Law came out. Basically, if someone was Compounding Investiture, if at some point the majority amount of Shardage was in their control, would the Shard automatically transfer over to them? (Example: 25% of a Shard is Invested in various things and people, the Shard holds 37% of itself, the Compounder holds 38% of Shard Investiture. Since at that point the Compounder has more Investiture than the Shard, the Shard's ownership switches over to them.)

I think the most common reply I got was along the lines of "that would be too easy". My own argument against it is that it would probably require consuming and compounding prohibitive amounts of Nicrosil metalminds (possibly tons) and just to fill up an even larger Nicrosil metalmind that would then have to be Tapped to hold the requisite amount of Shard. And even then, I'm not sure that would work, but it is an interesting question. The control system for a Shard might be a separate discrete part of the Shard from holding the majority of the Shard's Investiture. But I think that if you have access to other Cosmere magic systems you might be able to cheat the system in even greater ways than just Compounding. Basically, it ties back into the theory that Hoid is reconstructing Adonalsium by gathering Splinters of various Shards.

[Observer]

Point. If Hoid can't beat a shard into submission, he can just absorb it.

Can a shard refuse to give you power? Do the opposite of what Vin did, and negate magic? That'd make this methoid useless once the shard figured out what was happening.

[Aminar]

I made this same point a little while after Alloy of Law came out. Basically, if someone was Compounding Investiture, if at some point the majority amount of Shardage was in their control, would the Shard automatically transfer over to them? (Example: 25% of a Shard is Invested in various things and people, the Shard holds 37% of itself, the Compounder holds 38% of Shard Investiture. Since at that point the Compounder has more Investiture than the Shard, the Shard's ownership switches over to them.)

I think the most common reply I got was along the lines of "that would be too easy". My own argument against it is that it would probably require consuming and compounding prohibitive amounts of Nicrosil metalminds (possibly tons) and just to fill up an even larger Nicrosil metalmind that would then have to be Tapped to hold the requisite amount of Shard. And even then, I'm not sure that would work, but it is an interesting question. The control system for a Shard might be a separate discrete part of the Shard from holding the majority of the Shard's Investiture. But I think that if you have access to other Cosmere magic systems you might be able to cheat the system in even greater ways than just Compounding. Basically, it ties back into the theory that Hoid is reconstructing Adonalsium by gathering Splinters of various Shards.

I will never buy "too easy" as valid. Its called a loophole for a reason and even the best systems have it. I'm imagining a scheme where a group of full feruchemists all store their entire identities all the time so they can all share metalminds and then just compound (via hemalurgic spikes) nicrosil chull group until they're majority shareholders. Seems like a decent RPG story if nothing else. Fortunately full feruchemists don't exist in Alloy as of yet.

[Voidus]

Wouldn't need to be a full feruchemist, a group of double Nicrosils with Feruchemical Aluminum granted Hemalurgically would do (or Aluminum/Nicrosil twinborn with hemalurgic Nicrosil)

[Observer]

Again, if a shard can power an ability, why can't it negate it? Sazed woul dhave to, in the nature of Harmony, giving up his Preservation side without a fight would not only go against the Shard's intent, but also the mind's.