Is Harmony Unbalanced?

[Observer]

Long time lurker finally coming in to post. I've been wondering this for a while, and finally decided to post it. Ruin is stronger than Preservation. Much stronger if you include the Atium, though this may be negated by the Well. It doesn't change the fact that Preservation put more of himself into people than Ruin, which clearly made a large enough difference to have potentially led to the end of life on Scadrial. So that brings up the title question: Is Harmony unbalanced in Ruin's favor?

Edited August 25, 2012 by Observer

[Cheese Ninja]

Perhaps it was at first, but there are mechanisms in place that Sazed could Invest into. The Mists, spontaneously generating Atium/Lerasium, Investing in various things that people wouldn't even notice, either in pure forms or into living things or objects.

He might not even need to be holding perfectly equal amounts of each Shard, as long as they're somewhat close to each other. After all, if he's Harmony, he's naturally disposed to balancing the two Shards, so I don't think he's going to tilt too much one way or the other.

[Observer]

Come to think of it, that bag of Atium Marsh has, if Sazed was kind enough to keep restoring it, might be the reason for his balance...

[rags]

This topic should go to Mistborn forum ideally...

Anyways, Preservation invested some of his power in giving humans sentience, which started the whole imbalance thing in the first place....power invested in Mistborns and Misting probably also contributed to the imbalance. So in a manner of speaking sazed should be unbalanced, but Harmony's "balance" is more a balance of intent rather than just raw power. And like Cheese Ninja pointed out he could just unload some of ruins powers into atium to keep himself balanced.

[Voidus]

There's no reason that the power of a Shard should influence the strength of it's intent, even when divested of most of his power Ruin was still Ruinous and Preservation was still... er preservationous?

There may be a difference in the power of the Shards but that does not mean that the power will not regenerate (as with the Well) or that this should affect the Shards intent.

[rags]

There's no reason that the power of a Shard should influence the strength of it's intent, even when divested of most of his power Ruin was still Ruinous and Preservation was still... er preservationous?

Invalid argument.....Preservation was preservationous because Preservation only held Preservation.

Sazed is something else....probably the first instance when someones held two shards....so the "strength" of the intent may matter. So Harmony may be more ruinous than preservationous if he held more of Preservation than Ruin.

[Voidus]

Invalid argument.....Preservation was preservationous because Preservation only held Preservation.

Sazed is something else....probably the first instance when someones held two shards....so the "strength" of the intent may matter. So Harmony may be more ruinous than preservationous if he held more of Preservation than Ruin.

But er preservationousness is not an absolute state, their are gradients, if Preservations intent were less than fully commited to preservation then it would have been possible to Ruin for the sake of Preserving. (You don't need a Shard to feel Ruinous )

[Observer]

I think I'm going to go with the theory that the excess power of Ruin is siphoned off in the form of Marsh's Atium bag, which Sazed will probably endlessly refill to keep Ruin and Preservation even.

[ReaderAt2046]

I agree. If you'll remember, that was the original pupose of the Pits (Storing a big chunk of Ruinous energy.)

[Observer]

How quickly does Atium return to Sazed after ebing burned? I guess it doesn't really matter so long as he can give it back to Marsh instantly and it doens't take so long that the poor guy dies of old age. Still, do we know?

OT: Odium vs Harmony: Odium's good at killing, but Ruin is made to destroy. My money's on Sazed.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Observer

[Vortaan]

Remember that the wielder of the Shard's intent also works to influence how they can use that Shard. Sazed's logical enough to see that you might have to Ruin something to Preserve it. For example, to Preserve your garden you need to Ruin the weeds and prune the plants.

[Observer]

You have a point there actually.....

[Voidus]

Remember that the wielder of the Shard's intent also works to influence how they can use that Shard. Sazed's logical enough to see that you might have to Ruin something to Preserve it. For example, to Preserve your garden you need to Ruin the weeds and prune the plants.

Yes but only in the beginning because humans possess both the desire to ruin and to preserve, after a time with a Shard it completely enforces it's Intent on you (This is why Leras had to come up with such a long and complex plan to destroy Ruin, he was so influenced by the Shard that he was no longer capable of ruining at all.) that said, Sazed is the owner of both Shards so he would still be able to exert some of his own will into it.

[Eric]

(This is why Leras had to come up with such a long and complex plan to destroy Ruin, he was so influenced by the Shard that he was no longer capable of ruining at all.)

Actually, I'd put it a different way. He came up with a plan to preserve both Ruin and what was left of the Ati he knew way back when, which is why it was both circuitous and involved his own loss of power: he was preserving what was left of himself as well, and giving Sazed the means to preserve himself. And giving Vin the opportunity to preserve what she loved. In that light, it's a plan that really suits Preservation. Destruction isn't an inherent part of any aspect.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Eric

[Voidus]

Sorry, I should clarify that I meant the literal killing of Ati, not that Preservation meant to destroy anything I like that explanation as well, that he was really trying to preserve the Ati of old. Have an upvote.

[happyman]

Remember that the wielder of the Shard's intent also works to influence how they can use that Shard. Sazed's logical enough to see that you might have to Ruin something to Preserve it. For example, to Preserve your garden you need to Ruin the weeds and prune the plants.

I like this. With a mind sitting there between the two intents, he might be able to tip the balance just slightly, or apply corrections as needed. The two shards, interacting together, almost certainly produce something less extreme than either shard alone, and in fact may tend towards self-correction as long as the cognitive aspect is fully engaged.

[Observer]

From what I can tell, Preservation couldn't even Ruin to Preserve, which seems odd to me, considering Ruin could create to destroy. (This is all based around the assumption that Preservation could never kill Ruin, even if he knew it would Preserve the world. The idea dies if Ruin's guess was simply based on Leras' hesitence to kill him due to knowing there was a better way.)

[Vortaan]

From what I can tell, Preservation couldn't even Ruin to Preserve, which seems odd to me, considering Ruin could create to destroy. (This is all based around the assumption that Preservation could never kill Ruin, even if he knew it would Preserve the world. The idea dies if Ruin's guess was simply based on Leras' hesitence to kill him due to knowing there was a better way.)

Not quite right. Ruin could build something up, but Ruined it in the process. Koloss are 5 Ruined lives turned into 1 strong monster. Inquistors are at least 9 Ruined lives to make one pseudo-Mistborn... anyway, you get the point. Ruin always creates by destroying more raw materials than he gets out. Admittedly what he gets out of it is very very strong, generally strong than the ingredients used to make it, but still... large amounts of life loss.

[Observer]

Ignore the above sentence. Leras was able to stab Elend, which is essentially Ruining to Preserve. I'm still left to wonder how there's still a Lerasium bead around. Did Sazed do that on purpose?

[Voidus]

Ignore the above sentence. Leras was able to stab Elend, which is essentially Ruining to Preserve.

Actually this is quite a good point, I can't see how Preservation could Ruin to Preserve since it couldn't even create by itself. Maybe because Leras knew that Elend was going to be healed one way or another it doesn't count?

[Observer]

Just because Preservation can Ruin to Preserve doesn't mean he can create with the weenie piece of Ruin it may or may not own. I'm working on a theory that all old shardholders have pieces of Adonalsium in them, but even that wouldn't work considering how corroded Leras has become.

[Vortaan]

Actually this is quite a good point, I can't see how Preservation could Ruin to Preserve since it couldn't even create by itself. Maybe because Leras knew that Elend was going to be healed one way or another it doesn't count?

I'd think until there was actual irreparable damage, you can't really call a wounded person Ruined. Elend was able to be healed, by either the Well or pewter, and both those options were available to Leras. So while the action on it's surface seems like Ruining, it's a step on the way to Preserving Elend.

[Voidus]

"I'd think until there was actual irreparable damage, you can't really call a wounded person Ruined. Elend was able to be healed, by either the Well or pewter, and both those options were available to Leras. So while the action on it's surface seems like Ruining, it's a step on the way to Preserving Elend. "

Actually I think that considering mistsickness as long as Preservation didn't cause death it must have still been able to.

Edit: Sorry that sounded like I was disagreeing.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Voidus

[happyman]

We know that the Cognitive aspect of a shard is able to affect its interpretation of its intent.

From the behavior of the Shards, including Vin and TLR, I would have to say that what is shaped by the shard is the purpose of the actions, not the result.

Thus, if your goal is to create a civil war, you will be able to temporarily create plans to build something up. Kind of like Ruin built up Spook; the intent was civil war and so Ruin was able to do it, but the effect was when that all ended, Spook was an honest leader who created peace. That may not have happened without Ruin's interference, but it definitely wasn't his intent.

If your goal is to save the world from Ruin, you will be able to damage one person temporarily, knowing you can heal him. It's all about purpose, not actual action or result.

[Observer]

It seems proven that Ruin can Preserve to Destroy, and yet the epigraphs explicitly state:

In Preservation's gambit, I see nobility, cleverness, and desperation. He knew that he could not defeat Ruin. He had given too much of himself and, beyond that, he was the embodiment of stasis and stability. He could not destroy, not even to protect. It was against his nature. Hence the prison.

Mankind, however, had been created by both Ruin and Preservation—with a hint of Preservation's own soul to give them sentience and honor. In order for the world to survive, Preservation knew he had to depend upon his creations. To give them his trust.

I wonder what he thought when those creations repeatedly failed him.

Bold mine. Either Preservation was different, or Ruin and Preservation work differently than we originally assumed.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Observer