[Speculation] What if the Stone Shamanate are Evil...like Odium-Worshiping Evil?

[kaellok]

Hypothesis:  The Shin worship Odium in the same way that much of Roshar worships Honor through the auspices of Vorinism.  Looking at things through this lens allows for some very intriguing and entertaining possibilities.  There is very little evidence to directly support or refute the idea, and so it remains mere speculation.  But the more I think about it, the more sure I am that something very, very odd is going on there.  With Stones Unhallowed likely to explore that a lot more, guessing what may come is a fun game for me.  I started this thread in a sleep-deprived frenzy, and am slowly getting it cleaned.  Also, this is a ridiculously massive wall of text, and so I'm using spoiler tags to hide it.  There are also several sub-theories that I'm developing based off of this thought that are included, which contribute to the size.

 

Edit:  Heavy edits to introduction and point 1.

 

Supporting reasons!

1.  The Shin as the people of Odium.

Odium did *something* to become sort of Invested in Roshar, and create a workaround to allow people to have access to his magic.  

 

Shadowsaber223 ()

If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?

Brandon Sanderson

The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and its magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.  Link: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27odium%27

Emphasis mine.  We don’t know who this applies to.  It has been assumed that this is the parshmen, but it is not known if that is a limiting group, or an inclusive one.  (eg, is it the parshmen only, or is it the parshmen and others?)

 

Zas678

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)

[misunderstands question as a question about kandra/koloss/parshendi] Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.

Zas678

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created [Here it sounded like the mankind that's on that planet, not the specific generation], so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.

 

Question

Are the Parshendi of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Not originally.

Emphasis mine.  Here we have that the Parshendi are not originally of Odium (there’s another WoB that they are not originally of Cultivation, and that they are not of Honor.)  But it also strongly implies that if Odium had been around at the time the people were created, there would be a nice loophole for him to directly affect them.  Failing that, he can use the Unmade to affect them.  If the Shin are Odium’s people, he either helped create them, moved them to Roshar when he traveled there, or is using an Unmade as a sign of his ‘blessings.’  This section may need to be moved elsewhere by the end.

 

2.  Is Odium responsible for the differences in Shin land and culture?

Shin, the land and the culture and the people, are incredibly distinct from the rest of Roshar.  The rest of Roshar are presumably all Honor/Cultivation based.  The very large differences could be caused by Odium.  More thoughts to be added later.

 

3.  What did Szeth learn that made him Truthless, and why was it so important?

Szeth was declared Truthless for an unknown reason, but Kaladin being a Radiant proved Szeth right.  So, this likely meant that Szeth said that the Radiants had returned, and the Stone Shamans were all like, "Nah, dude.  That's impossible."  Very little is known about the Stone Shaman beliefs, and so why they believed that was impossible was largely based off of basic Vorinism--even though we know that the culture itself is drastically different in many ways.  They could very easily believe that the Radiants cannot return because that would indicate a failure of their own god, Odium.  (Few people are willing to entertain the fallibility of their deities, after all.)

 

4.  What if Nalan is working against Odium--by turning Szeth into a weapon he can wield?

Nalan is a Herald of the Almighty, albeit one that at one point turned from his sworn path.  But I think that Nalan is still working to fight against Odium.  To turn one of the enemy against them is a time-honored tradition in fantasy and science-fiction, and so it's not a surprise to see him turn Szeth against the Shin themselves at the end of WoR.  And to also give him a weapon that seems capable of more than holding its own, even against an Honorblade.  Also, Nalan does not seem upset at the loss of an Honorblade--perhaps because it's in the hands of a Radiant, someone who will aid in the fight against Odium?  Certainly getting one Honorblade back from a single Radiant would be easier than a full-frontal assault on the stronghold of the Stone Shamanate and their multitudes; it would also give Szeth time to become accustomed to Nightblade; and yet it's not mentioned or hinted at at all, implying that it's fine where it is now, but the others are not.  

 

5.  I actually find this possibility makes Szeth more interesting as a character.  

He tries to warn his people that the end times are upon them and to prepare, but they refuse to listen (ok, that seems likely whether they worship Odium or hate him.)  He feels deeply the sin and tragedy of every kill, and hates the people who force him to do so.  But, he also recognizes that this will enable his deity to triumph much more easily, and so he does not resist the orders, does not fight the pathetically simple lies he is fed.  He hates the hand that wields him because that is what his god demands, and because that hand is trying to fight the god of hate--clearly an impossible and foolish task.  It empowers Szeth through his seeming refusal to make a choice or act according to what we are being told his conscience says.  I am doing a poor job of explaining this; will likely re-write.  

 

6.  The Stone Shamans eventually gathered the Honorblades, and many have speculated their reasons.  

I posit here that it is because they are/were used against their enemies, the Radiants, that remained even after the Heralds fled the battlefield.  Ishar is commonly believed to have been able to be victorious over all of the Radiants should they refuse to swear the Oaths; perhaps his Honorblade contains the power to control those with damaged spiritwebs in much the same way that Vin or Elend could control the Koloss (dangerous amounts of Stormlight + controlling Radiants to break Oaths = instant win for whoever has this power; and Mr T believes that there is an "I Win" button to counter the Radiants.)

 

Edit: Added points 7 and 8, because THIS SPECULATION WASN'T LONG ENOUGH!

 

7.  Stone is sacred to the Shin.  However, there is at least one place that is considered unhallowed ground--which is Urithuru, or the seat of the Radiants.  Imagine why.  

Radiants are of Honor, and if Honor is the enemy, then the stronghold of your enemy is likely to be considered profane.  Also, Shardblades and Plate and all that were made to fight giant monsters of rock and stone, all but impervious to swords and arrows.  Imagine if you weren't entirely sure where your god's strongest allies and lieutenants lay buried, but they were enormous in size and scope--would you risk cutting anywhere in the ground, knowing that the difference of even one of them may make or break the war effort the next time battle comes?  Or, believing that you have won, would you desecrate their graves, simply for a stronger house?

 

8.  Odium actually becomes much more interesting than HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE.  LUNCH.  HATE HATE HATE as a character/villain.  

The Shin seem rather serene and not warlike--not really what you would expect from people that worship a being that personifies Hate, right?  Wrong!  What if Rayse, aka Odium, granted them their wish to be more serene by promising to hate for them?  So, since they don't have to worry about holding onto their anger or hate, it's dealt with and healed over quickly--unless you're Truthless, and you hold onto it until it warps and twists you like Szeth.  

 

 

Problems with the idea!

1.  It's a bit ridiculous.  

 

2.  Mr. T does not seem to consider them agents of Odium/Evil/etc.  But Mr. T may also have been influenced by Odium on the day of greatest intelligence when he created the Diagram, or he may not have had enough information regarding the Shin to accurately predict them in the ways he did with the rest of Roshar.

 

3.  Shin consider Stormlight to be sacred and precious, and yet it flows in Highstorms as a direct result of the commands of Honor.  (The Stormfather says that he was commanded by the Almighty to bring the storms, and the Storms are most definitely Invested.)  Why would the Shin consider the power of their nemesis to be holy?  Because it's actually Odium's power, of course!  Voidbringers hold in Stormlight perfectly, and they are of Odium.  Or it might be acting as a part of Odium's cage, and by storing the power rather than using it then it weakens the prison that binds him.  Weak counters, I know.

 

4.  I'm pretty sure that I've contradicted myself and my thoughts at least twice so far.  So just ignore those for now.

 

Thoughts?  Comments?  Responses?

 

I have edited some points, in order to rectify mistakes and confusions!  Thank you all who have posted so far!  Keep posting.  I know this is a bit ridiculous, but I find myself enjoying this idea more and more as time goes by, even if I don't think it's actually true.  Adding spoiler tags just to hide some of the post and make it less likely to accidentally give someone a coma when they run into it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by kaellok

[taveren]

there is defiantly something odd about them but its unlikely that they would be against the rest of the world. if they were they could have won already you can see what just one of them has done with an honorblade they could easily take over with 8 and there wouldn't have been any radiants to stop them

[Oudeis]

6.  The Stone Shamans were awfully quick to gather up the Honorblades

 

The Honorblades were abandoned in the Prelude and the Stone Shamans have them by the time of the books. Do we know when during all that the Shamans got it? It's 4.5K Rosharan years (6 earth millenia), and for all we know the Shamans only collected the whole set two or three generations ago.

 

Actually as I think about it... this is an odd thing. There were Radiants in the Prelude. Did they have any say in the Honorblades? Were the Honorblades ever in Radiant possession?

 

Can Honorblades operate the Oathgate? Szeth comments in an interlude that he was taken to Urithiru upon being made Truthless. Do the Shin retain a functional Oathgate?

[CHOUTAGOD]

Longest speculation EVER!!!!! No offense my man/lady... just saying... just saying.

[KevinTheHerdazian]

2. There are no sprens in Shinovar that's why it is so different, it's based solely on cultivation.

3. The Heralds told humans that the last desolation had just ended. So why would there be a need for new knights radiant.

4. If that's the case why would he send szeth to kill them.

1. I don't know this one.

5. I don't understand this one.

6. I've only read Stormlight archive books so I don't know about this one either.

[kaellok]

Crap, you haven't read WoR yet.  There's WoR spoilers on like, every answer I have.  I think they're all minor, but still I feel a bit bad.  Oh well.

 

2. There are no sprens in Shinovar that's why it is so different, it's based solely on cultivation.

3. The Heralds told humans that the last desolation had just ended. So why would there be a need for new knights radiant.

4. If that's the case why would he send szeth to kill them.

 

2.  I'm assuming you mean cultivation, and not Cultivation--because Cultivation has absolutely spit out some spren of their own, and at least some of them combined with bits of Honor to form at least some of the Radiant spren.  If you're talking about just growing stuff and stuff, then that's very possible.  There's another WoB that I need to dig up that says that astronomers would say that Roshar isn't a habitable planet at this time, due to what's going on.  This might be due to the lack of plate tectonic activity, nearness of the star, or something else we're not sure of--but it certainly seems like 'normal' cultivation as we're used to it on Earth shouldn't be possible.  And yet it is, in Shinovar, and so I smell the action of a Shard (which could be any of them, really, but the lack of spren doesn't prove one or another.  It might actually help prove Odium, since some Odium-spren seem capable of turning 'normal' spren into Odium-spren.  A lack of deer may mean that there were never deer in an area, or that something simply ate them all.)

 

3.  The Radiants existed for some time after the falsely named Final Desolation.  So, it seems logical that the Stone Shamanate have some kind of knowledge regarding the dissolution of the Radiants, and why they cannot return (it's either that, or there's something I haven't thought of that is the cause for Szeth being declared Truthless.  WoR almost spells out why, but falls short, and so it could be deliberately leading us to false conclusions; I have not discounted this possibility, I'm just ignoring it.)  It's obvious that the Stone Shamante at the very least have knowledge regarding the Radiants that is lost to the rest of the world.  There are definite hints within the text of WoR that lead one to believe why for a couple of different reasons, but most of those theories rest upon them being anti-Odium.  It can certainly be read from the other way, which is what I was doing during this speculation.

 

4.  Ah! I was not clear here.  I think that Nalan is still working to thwart and fight Odium, but according to his own plan rather than Honor's.  Honor, of course, bound ten people to be granted incredible power to fight a god every so often, and in between suffer extreme and unbelievable torment and agony.  I find it hard for Nalan to have decided that that might not be the best idea, after all, and look for alternative solutions.

[ostrichofevil]

We have heard that Cultivation is worshipped in the Eastern Roshar.

[thecatinthehat]

The Radiants existed for some time after the falsely named Final Desolation. So, it seems logical that the Stone Shamanate have some kind of knowledge regarding the dissolution of the Radiants, and why they cannot return (…) It's obvious that the Stone Shamante at the very least have knowledge regarding the Radiants that is lost to the rest of the world.

Hmmm. Is it probable that the Heralds are directly responsible for the Shin (i.e. the shamanate) so dogmatically believing the struggle is over?

I mean, we know that they told the mankind the Voidbringers are finally defeated. The nine, no more bound by the Oathpact, could help to start rebuilding the civilization. What do you think about these people being an origin to Shin Kak Nish?

Even better, what about the Stone Shamanate (or their predecessors) being the only ones informed about the oath being broken?

Edited January 4, 2015 by mdmilosz

[Aizhen]

On a slight tangent, I've been wondering about the Shin as well, but haven't organized my thoughts as well.  I'm rereading WoK and in one of Szeth's interludes he talks about how the ShinShamen will come get his blade if anyone is every able to kill him- just like that, they will come get the blade from someone good enough to kill Szeth.  

 

I also can't understand why they would just send seth out, so well trained and equipped, to cause ruin and destruction in the world.  Syl basically calls Szeth Odium at one point doesn't she?  

[Shard of Adonalsium]

Odium's schedule:

1. Wake up from Shardsleep.
2. Brew a pot of Odiumspresso.
3. Fly over Braize to my temple.
4. Try to control Roshar's people from here.
5. Hate.
6. Hate.
7. Hate.
8. Hate.
9. Hate.
10. Lunch.
11. Hate.
12. Hate.
13. Hate.
14. Hate.
15. Hate.
16. Fly back home.
17. Dinner. (Freshly caught and roasted spren, mmm.)
18. Shardsleep.

[WindrunnerRadiant]

About this whole theory, I disagree entirely based on Occam's Razor. When multiple possibilities are presented to explain the same thing, it is almost always the most simple.

 

From what we know about the Shin people, they believe that violence and hating others is wrong, and the value cultivators far above anyone else. No offense, but there is no way that they are of Odium. It is almost impossible for them to be anything but Cultivation's people.

[kaellok]

About this whole theory, I disagree entirely based on Occam's Razor. When multiple possibilities are presented to explain the same thing, it is almost always the most simple.

 

From what we know about the Shin people, they believe that violence and hating others is wrong, and the value cultivators far above anyone else. No offense, but there is no way that they are of Odium. It is almost impossible for them to be anything but Cultivation's people.

Ruin and Preservation worked together to achieve their individual goals. Odium and Cultivation may have done the same thing.

Also, Stone Shamanate may simply be deceiving the rest of the Shin. It's not like we didn't probably see something similar to that happening with Venli and Stormform, after all.

Also, when looking for the twist, Occam's Razor does not necessarily apply. I mean, am i right? Probably not. Is there some weird, evil stuff going on that is helping Odium? Absolutely.

[hoser]

It is an interesting theory.  One issue I have with it is Shardic intent.  People under a Shardic influence will generally behave consistently with that Shard. 

• We saw what happened when Kaladin acted less honorably. 
• We also have an example of someone under the influence of Odium.  Shallan's father (Lin?) was clearly under Odium's influence and his behavior was quite horrendous. 
• The general Shin populace seem quite peaceful from the examples we have seen.  Their behavior seems more consistent with Cultivation than Odium.  Although there may be some weirdness involving the Shin leadership, I don't see the general populace as worshiping or following Odium. 
• The Unmade are another example of Odious followers.  Once living beings, they seem to have given up their bodies and who knows what else to become malevolent spirits.  
• We also see what happened to Eshonai when she took on Odious influence.  She overthrew the rest of the leadership and militarized her people.  She also interacted scornfully and threateningly, showing the pervasive Odious influence.

With Honor splintered and Cultivation seemingly disinterested, Vorinism and Stone Shamanism may have been perverted to serve Odium's purposes.  For example, the gender seperation rules in Vorinism seem to serve division, distrust and ignorance.  I think that is a far cry from actually following or worshipping Odium. 

 

The Shin seem to believe the lies of the Heralds and have retained information lost to the Alethi.  It is an intriguing mystery how the Radiants fit into the history.  It makes sense for the Radiants to have retrieved the Heralds' weapons.  As Honor was around when most of the Heralds packed it in, it seems like the Radiants should have figured out that the Heralds lied about winning. 

If the Radiants passed the Honorblades to the Shamans, it seems likely that they would have passed on the information about the Heralds' faithlessness.  Did the Radiants not know? Did the Radiants never have the Honorblades?   

[joesleepsalot]

I'm going to have to agree with the original post, there's definitely something going on in shinovar that's evil....although an argument for Cultivation clearly has merit as well.

 

 Nalan and Szeth, with night blood, are going to exact vengeance on the shin council. Nightblood will only harm evil people. With that said, why in the world would Nalan go along with this? From the words of radiance prologue, we know that he was in-the-know about Szeth's possession of an honorblade from the beginning. We also know from Arcanum Unbounded the "why" behind Nalan's actions. And we know that Lift made him snap out of his "twisted herald" stupor.

 I've been scouring all these forums and speculative theories for like 3 years now, I don't think we will be able to really start gaining momentum until the third book comes out in November this year. HOPEFULLY we get answers on the shin issues... but yeah I think the original post has some merit for sure. 

[kenod]

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

I'm going to have to agree with the original post, there's definitely something going on in shinovar that's evil....although an argument for Cultivation clearly has merit as well.

 

 Nalan and Szeth, with night blood, are going to exact vengeance on the shin council. Nightblood will only harm evil people. With that said, why in the world would Nalan go along with this? From the words of radiance prologue, we know that he was in-the-know about Szeth's possession of an honorblade from the beginning. We also know from Arcanum Unbounded the "why" behind Nalan's actions. And we know that Lift made him snap out of his "twisted herald" stupor.

 I've been scouring all these forums and speculative theories for like 3 years now, I don't think we will be able to really start gaining momentum until the third book comes out in November this year. HOPEFULLY we get answers on the shin issues... but yeah I think the original post has some merit for sure. 

This was a bit of necro. The post before you was almost 2 years old. Unless it's important, please try to avoid this.

[dionysus]

There is probably something evil going on in all the societies on Roshar. Heck, I would argue that the Alethi are the most corrupted by Odium from what we have seen. The male part of their aristocracy are heavily influenced by the Thrill, and they are the ones with the political power. The war in the Shattered Plains is driven by the Thrill and greed at this point, revenge just being an excuse. We only have hints of it, but with the Highprinces and a lot of the government focused on gemhearts and battle, we can see that the neglect of Alethkar itself is breeding something bad (the queen in Kholinar.) Dalinar is bringing some redemption for Alethkar, but his influence still hasn't reached beyond the survivors from the war camps.

Jah Kaved has destroyed itself with power mad princes fighting for the throne (of course they had a certain outsider helping them along.) That scene with Mr. T and the last prince is disturbing, it makes me wonder if Jah Kaved is even a nation any more or just one big population of refugees with probably very few fighting age men.

Other than the turned Parshendi, I doubt any society is wholly in Odium's camp. Seems wrong to single Shinovar out as worshiping Odium, when everyone seems to be helping Odium along in their own separate ways.

Edited March 23, 2017 by dionysus