The Great Reread - The Dragon Reborn

[Shivertongue]

THIS THREAD WILL MOST LIKELY CONTAIN SPOILERS.

Discussion thread for the Great Reread, pertaining to book 3, The Dragon Reborn. This is the third book, and you should probably not be here if you have not read the first two books. Seriously, things will not make sense if you read them out of order.

For information and to join The Great Reread, please go here.

[Aethling]

Only ~200 pages left now. Rand has left the group and is on his way to Tear. Faile has joined up with Perrin. All three of the wondergirls have left the White Tower (AGAIN). Avi and Rhuarc have been introduced. Mat is on his way to visit the queen with a note. Really getting interesting in the stuff going on.

[Aeshdan]

I am done!

[JamesW]

Finished it today!

[Shivertongue]

Ah, the Aiel... have I mentioned how much I love the Aiel?

[frozndevl]

Finished this up last night! Apparently I have fully remembered how to sneak in reading time and sacrifice sleep to get through something. 3 big books in 2 weeks with a full-time job and little kid seemed impossible when I started the reread. I thought I would be hard-pressed to finish them all before AMOL. Of course, now the books start to get big!

One of the aspects I enjoyed about this book is that this is where the channeler's start to spontaneously start to do very cool things, relative to current knowledge. We can ignore Rand and his Callandor fueled epicness as he dueled Ishy, but we can reference Nyn's balefire and Egwene tying off the weaves.

And of course, the Aiel. Looking back to our first introduction to our long-time friends of Aviendha, Bain, Chiad, and Gaul, really shows that they were minor supporting characters when they were first presented. I thought the foreshadowing of Avi having to go to Rhuidean was pretty good, pretty subtle, especially when compared to "Sheating the Sword" in TGH.

Edited August 6, 2012 by frozndevl

[Lady_Yasha]

Ah, the Aiel... have I mentioned how much I love the Aiel?

Not enough.

[Telcontar]

Never noticed before that Mat's first POV-chapter is chapter 19. Only Rand and Perrin before that. And of course those girls. But never Mat.

Suppose RJ didn't want to describe his dagger-caused madness.

Anyway, one of my favorite scenes is going to be in the next chapters. When Mat fights against Gawyn and Galad and wins although starving because of his Healing.

[frozndevl]

Yeah, that was a fun scene to read again. Also makes me wonder who would win now.

Galad - He is the perfect swordsman

Gawyn - somehow has turned into super sayan form of himself

Mat - Just overall badass with his ashandarei

[Shivertongue]

Yeah, that was a fun scene to read again. Also makes me wonder who would win now.

Galad - He is the perfect swordsman

Gawyn - somehow has turned into super sayan form of himself

Mat - Just overall badass with his ashandarei

According to RJ and Brandon, apparently, Gawyn isn't as good as he thinks he is, and has mostly "gotten really lucky" in most of his fights.

I'm not sure who would win this time. All three have gotten better since that match, but also keep in mind that Mat is a tactical genius now, and when he fought them the first time, he wasn't at top form. And, in truth, a lot of his victories come about because of luck as well.

[Aeshdan]

May I just mention that I love the scene when the PowerGirls have just commisioned Sandar and he says "I will be as careful as if these women were Aes Sedai, and every one of them Black Ajah"?

[Telcontar]

According to RJ and Brandon, apparently, Gawyn isn't as good as he thinks he is, and has mostly "gotten really lucky" in most of his fights.

I'm not sure who would win this time. All three have gotten better since that match, but also keep in mind that Mat is a tactical genius now, and when he fought them the first time, he wasn't at top form. And, in truth, a lot of his victories come about because of luck as well.

I just finished.

It is interesting that Mat has some problems when he is fighting the High Lord Darlin in the Stone. That one is a Blademaster, but Mat has recovered all his HP and strength.

He probably was only able to win against Gawyn and Galad because he knocked the first one out before Gawyin realised that Mat actually was an opponent and because Galad wasn't that good yet. Surely not far as good as a blademaster.

It's amazing how short Rand's battle against Ishi was. In my mind it always took way more space than those few pages.

And again, when the wondergirls are brought to the Stone by Liandrin, they are taken in a carriage with that fist holding bolts-sigil on it. We see that sigil twice after that

once in TAR and Sammael sitting on a chair with the sigil and once on the doors to Taim's palace

. And it kills me not to know if it's indeed the same sigil and whose it is. any ideas?

[Lady_Yasha]

Short fights are always more tense, I think, because one man is always going to be better than the other. A lot of variables affect a fight and in the middle of a battle/war no one man is going to be in top form.

Between the three I think it's a toss between Mat and Galad. Galad certainly has the prowess in combat now, but Mat exploits weaknesses; having countless memories to call upon he should be a blademaster in his own right and maybe even acts reflexively.

Gawyn, he'd probably just throw a paddy and whine about life not being fair, or how Mat is obviously a Darkfriend because he used to be friends with Rand, who is now the Dragon Reborn.

Guess who else I hate

[Igolbug]

I was looking forward to that fight with Mat since I started my re-read, one of my favourite scenes to read aboot in all the books.

Mat would still win because he would take the risks needed to win.

[Brendan]

Never noticed before that Mat's first POV-chapter is chapter 19. Only Rand and Perrin before that. And of course those girls. But never Mat.

Suppose RJ didn't want to describe his dagger-caused madness.

I feel that him doing this was a tool, he couldn't very well have the character not be able to remember the things that went on and the thoughts they had when the reader had read them thinking these things. It goes to show Jordan's planning and skill as an author that Mat does not have a PoV until after he is healed.

Rereading this series just reminds me with every book the little things Jordan did, he didn't just write a story, he crafted it, everything he did he did for a reason and now being able to see those reasons come to life is amazing.

[Aeshdan]

Gawyn, he'd probably just throw a paddy and whine about life not being fair, or how Mat is obviously a Darkfriend because he used to be friends with Rand, who is now the Dragon Reborn.

Gawyn seems to have gotten over his little snit by the end of ToM, plus he's a Warder. That would level the playing field a bit

Edited September 23, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[Lady_Yasha]

Gawyn seems to have gotten over his little snit by the end of ToM, plus he's a Warder. That would level the playing field a bit

I haven't liked his character since The Fires of Heaven.

Nynaeve bossing around a group of Aiel she's just met was hilarious. I was reminded how interesting the Aiel culture is.

[king of nowhere]

I just reread the first three books and I can't believe how idiotic most of the main characters are. I remembered moiraine acting ambiguous from the beginning, thus earning distrust from everyone, but after rereading I saw she was open and honest as much as she could be at first, yet no one trusted her anyway. Not even after she put herself between two forsaken and the emond fielders. Especially amzing how rand - who distrust everything moiraine says despite the three oaths and despite knowing they are on the same side and despite her taking great risks to save him countless times - immediately believe ishamael's claims that the white tower wants to set him as a false dragon. Immediate distrust for a close ally and immediate acceptace for his worst enemy? what is wrong with him?

Egwene and nynaeve are just as bad, despising everything moiraine did even when doing the same and even when acknowledging she did the right things. when they went adventuring nynaeve and egwene kept squabbling for leadership despite having no need to do so. They act like spolied kids most of the time. Not to menion how they treat gawin and galad when they are trying to know why they disappeared. they could have just said "sorry, we were ordered to keep it secret" but they again had to treat them like ccrap. As if they had not the right to ask why their sister disappeared. No wonder galad went to the whitecloaks. It's already something he did nto became convinced his sister was a darkfriend.

Especially ridiculous then is their conception of morality. When they are prisoners in the stone of tear, hielded in their cell, egwene manages to capture the black sedai holdinng their shield in TER. But then she has no idea how to make her drop the shield. How about killing her? No, that would be bad! Yes, they are not willing to kill a black ajah that is taking them captive, even when that could be the only way of escaping before the ritual with the 13 myrdrals takes place. So what? they went to hunt the balck ajah to give them a stern warning? they may even call them "bad girls" if they really are angry. I can't believe the fate of the world is in the hands of people like them. And then mat saves them and they treat him like crap. And in future books, after they fight in tanchico, they treat the panarch of tarabon worse than they treat a captured moghedien!

Mat is also extremely close-minded. He always assumes that he knows better than anyone else. Everytime one of the girls do something strange, he never think that maybe they know what they are doing. Oh, and he don't understands why people try to kill him. After all, he only sound the horn...

If they were having a dinner together, and someone would ask "rand, please give me the salt" he would say "Never! I will never be manipulated in doing what you want!" while egwene and nynaeve would try to bully each other into doing it and moiraine would suggest that maybe you not having salt is part of the pattern.

And all the while they are keeping secrets from each others, sometimes just for spite or "to show that they would not be bullied", but they don't understand how the others could keeep secrets from them!

Really, if those guys have learned to talk with each other and to trust that maybe someone else knows better than they do, the wot would have been a trilogy.

Even if the prize for the most stupidity goes to gawin for the scene in a future book when he "learn" of the death of his mother: that scene is really ridiculous

"there is some unconfirmed voice that morgase disappeared. Someone with no first hand knowledge - or even second or third hand knowledge, for that matter - says that the dragon killed her"

"the light burn him! I'll kill him with my hands!"

And a few books after, when egwene tries to persuade him rand did nothing "can you prove it for sure without any hint of doubt?" Yes, he will believe a wild tale grown over an unconfirmed voice, but he will require plenty of proof to believe otherwise. "lordd gaebril was really a forsaken, he used compulsion on morgase and he may be the one responsible for her disappear" "I still think it was rand".

I pity moiraine. She could have had a cozy life in the tower but she choose to have twenty years of hardship only to get to risk her life on a daily basis for some ungrateful people who will hate her for saving their life, will hide from her vital informations and would try to overrule her every command for no other reason that they don't like her. If i were her, I would have balefired them all, then shouted at the sky "next time, bring some ta'veren that are more responsible!".

I'm so glad they get to grow up in further books. Sometimes I want to scream at them over the pages.

[king of nowhere]

but as the book progresses and other characters grow, moiraine becomes worse and worse, reducing herself to the level of others. really, refusing to exchange with rand the answer they got from the snake people? She denies herself AND rand precious information.

her pow in chapter 21 is so much different from those in previous books. in previous books she was ready to do what she must, while here she is often petty in her scheming for power. she shifted from doing her duty to bullying other poeple into doing what she wanted. I guess that change would be a result of her struggle with rand.