Holy Names

[Mimiddle04]

Holy names in the religion on Roshar are names that are almost symmetrical.

 

I have a few questions about some of the character's names.  

 

1. Why didn't Gavilar or Dalinar get holy names?
   1. They are the highest light eyes from a family that was prominent even before they became kings.
   2. For that matter I'm pretty sure none of their family have particularly symmetrical names.  Adolin, Jasnah, Renarin, and Elhokar don't seem to be holy.
2. What makes Kaladin's name a lighteye name?
   1. Shallan mentions his name sounds like a lighteye name.

 

 

[gjustice99 she/her]

Jasnah is probably a holy name as they use h as a substitute for other letters.

[Aonar he/him]

Lighteye names are usually, (but not always, I'd imagine it involved how devout the Lighteye in question is) just off of symmetrical. Having a palindromic name is considered the highest form of blasphemy, and simply isn't done. However, as Vorin Lighteyes consider themselves closer to the Almighty than Darkeyes, they tend to give their children names that are near-symmetrical, without being offensive or blasphemous. (There are rare exceptions, where nobles believe themselves powerful enough not to be called out; that's how you end up with names like Ialai [sadeas' wife's name])

 

If you notice, the names are always one syllable from being symmetrical. Kalak becomes Kaladin, Shallash becomes Shallan, Jasaj becomes Jasnah, Rener becomes Renarin, Dalilad becomes Dalinar, Elhohle becomes Elhokar, Torot becomes Torol, etc. It works better for some than others, and it's harder to see with shorter names, but it's always there.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Aonar Faileas

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

In WoR, somewhere, it's stated that  a perfectly symmetrical name is blasphemous, so they just try to get as close as possible.

I'm guessing that they just have to be as symmetrical sounding as possible? That doesn't really explain Elhokar (which autocorrects to Karoke, which is hilarious) or Adolin (which autocorrects to mandolin, which is great). It's probably more of a rule of thumb motif than anything.

[Windrunner he/him]

Brandon's also mentioned on Writing Excuses that there are classical Alethi names as well as the holy ones that aren't palindromic, thus Dalinar and company.

[hoser he/him]

Just a minor nit:

• Ialai, Sadeas' wife's name is symmetrical.  It is blasphemous, but not so much that it isn't done, apparently.  IIRC, Sadeas mentions that it is one of his initial attractions. 

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Yeah there are two main schemes when it comes to names in Vorin cultures, near-symmetrical and meaningful suffixes.

 

Kaladin is actually based off the name of Kalak with an additional suffix KALA(k)-DIN.  Most darkeyes have more simplistic names, the suffixes appear to be a more lighteyes thing.

 

Another example of these suffixes is Nahel/Zahel.

[Zea mays she/her]

<p>

Just a minor nit:

• Ialai, Sadeas' wife's name is symmetrical. It is blasphemous, but not so much that it isn't done, apparently. IIRC, Sadeas mentions that it is one of his initial attractions.

Another even more minor point: the only other person with a palindromic name we know of so far (deep breath; sorry 'bout the run-on sentence) is Laral from Hearthstone.

I always wondered if there is some connection between the two.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Actually Roshone's son's name, Rillir, is also a perfect palindrome.

[RawToast225 he/him]

"Holy names, Batman!"

 

In all seriousness, I think that the names are holy if they sound like one of the Herald's names. I don't know all the names of the heralds, but Kaladin (Kalad's Phantoms anyone?) kind of has a name that sounds like Kalak. Shallan sounds like the one that trashed all the art, Tien sounds like Taln, ect. If a high ranking noble doesn't have a good sounding name, historians will just give him one later (The guy who wrote The Way of Kings being a great example of that). 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Arthur Dent

[Mimiddle04]

The prefixes being holy because they're the prefixes to the Heralds makes sense.  As Aonar Faileas said a lot of the names do have the same prefix as the Heralds and that for sure answers my question about why Shallan said Kaladin had a lighteye name.

 

But...and I might not remember correctly, I didn't pay a lot of attention to Shallan chapters on my latest reread, but doesn't Shallan explain Holy names differently to Pattern?  I thought she told him her name is considered holy because of how close it is to being a palindrome.  As someone mentioned above the h is interchangeable with the n and the S keeps it from being perfect so it isn't blasphemous?

 

As someone pointed out above Jasnah's is pretty close because of the h being interchangeable.  So remove her from my list of Kohlins who don't have holy names, but the rest still don't fit.  They fit lighteyed names that use Herald prefixes, but they don't fit the format for "holy names" as explained by Shallan.

 

Again I'm not very confident in my memory, and maybe Shallan explained it differently or something else.  If I'm not stating her explanation correctly please let me know.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[RawToast225 he/him]

I'm thinking that Dalinar and Gavilar were both named in a style that is unknown to us. Their names sound like each other. Maybe they were made to sound like Kholinar, their homeland. Adolin and Renarin both have the same last part of the name as well, so I'm guessing it's just a tradition.

 

Jasnah, Jezrien.

 

Elhokar is just weird.

 

Navani is close to that one Herald that's killing all the peeps. 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Arthur Dent

[WeiryWriter he/him]

What makes a name holy is symmetrical-ity, not resemblance to the names of the Heralds. Since it is considered near-blasphemy to give someone an actual holy name (unless it is an honorific given by the church as in the case of "Nohadon") then parents generally change a single letter, so that it is one step away from holy (Shallash -> Shallan).

This is why Vorin's refer to the heralds by different names (Jezerezeh instead of Jezrien, Nalan instead of Nale, etc)

With the suffixes some use Herald names as a base (as in the case of Kaladin) but they aren't necessary. We really don't know enough about what the suffixes mean to say more.

[Suspense]

Actually, Dalinar and Gavilar are both very close to symmetrical--only the consonants are off.

[RawToast225 he/him]

That's a good point but what about Elhokar? Or Jasnah? Or Adolin? Or Renarin?

[Oudeis he/him]

NOTHING.

 

I misread and replied to a point no one had made.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Ooklalhoo'Elin

[Mimiddle04]

I just realized Dalinar does work.  It just looks so un-symmetrical its hard to see.  The N and L are interchangeable so they're both pivoting around the I.  The A's line up and then the D and R are different to keep it from being blasphemous.  Gavilar still doesn't work because it has no N's.  Their names do seem to be so similar though, whoever pointed out above, that they might just be named in a traditional but not holy way is likely correct.

[Voidus]

I imagine the Kholins have weirder sounding names because the suffix for either the family name kholin (Adolin, Renarin) or the Alethi capital kholinar (Dalinar, Elhokar, Gavilar) is used. I imagine that the -ar suffix is linked to being royal while Adolin and Renarin simply had names styled after their princedom (Dalinar noticeably has both)
Now this doesn't really work for Dalinar or Gavilar since they were the ones who united the kingdoms but they could equally have still been named for the capital and after establishing the kingdom the Kholins reverted to using the -in suffix to avoid confusion.

[Suspense]

That's a good point but what about Elhokar? Or Jasnah? Or Adolin? Or Renarin?

Jasnah = Jas nah.  I believe H can replace anything, so that just leaves the S and N not matching up.  Pretty close if you ask me.

 

I have no ideas regarding the other three.

[Mimiddle04]

Jasnah = Jas nah.  I believe H can replace anything, so that just leaves the S and N not matching up.  Pretty close if you ask me.

 

I have no ideas regarding the other three.

 

Is it the H or the N that is interchangeable? I am not contradicting but truly curious.  If it's the H I was wrong about Dalinar working.  If it's the N then Dalinar still does work.

[Dahak he/him]

Is it the H or the N that is interchangeable? I am not contradicting but truly curious.  If it's the H I was wrong about Dalinar working.  If it's the N then Dalinar still does work.

 

H. Nohadon is the name whose symmetry due to H substitution upset Pattern.

[Oudeis he/him]

I still wanna know what the diacritical mark looks like.

[DocHoliday he/him]

That's a good point but what about Elhokar? Or Jasnah? Or Adolin? Or Renarin?

We should also keep in mind that the Alethi alphabet is not the same as ours. I never payed to much attention to it, but as I recall the th and sh phonetics in our language are single letters in Alethi. I'm sure there are other letters that are iinterchanged as well

[lujakunk]

On 15/12/2014 at 6:00 PM, Zea mays said:

Another even more minor point: the only other person with a palindromic name we know of so far (deep breath; sorry 'bout the run-on sentence) is Laral from Hearthstone.

I always wondered if there is some connection between the two.

We also know of Hanavanar, former king Jah Keved. I think that the H is supposed to be used to kind of soften the name. It keeps it from being perfectly symmetrical while retaining his importance/status

[Krandacth]

I thought that both h and n could be used to replace phonemes, with the one used being dependent on the original phonemes. So a diacritical mark on the hard d in Nodadon softens it to an h, while the diacritical mark on the soft sh in Shallash hardens it to an n. That way the name is spelt symmetrically but pronounced as far from symmetrically as possible, to make it clear that it is not blasphemous.

In fact, I'm not sure they are even specified as being limited to n and h. I suspect anything could be used, though there are probably conventions whereby a marked character sounds like a specific other character, preserving the hard-soft pairing.

Tl;Dr: The reasoning is complete headcanon, but both the h in Nohadon and the n in Shallan are definitely both given as examples in the conversation with Pattern.