Who has that pesky tenth Honorblade?

[Secret Ardent Man]

     Greetings, everyone! This is my first post after being a long time passive observer, so I apologize if this topic came up in previous threads. 

 

      My question is this: Towards the end of WoR, when Szeth is talking to Nalan after fighting Kaladin, he mentions that there are seven Honorblades remaining with his people in Shinovar. Counting the one he dropped (8), and the Blade that Taln (wherever he is) ostensibly still holds (9), there are only nine blades accounted for.

 

      Who, then, could have possession of the tenth blade? 

 

      It seems to me as though Nalan is the likeliest of the Heralds to have recovered his blade, as in Lift's interlude she describes him as being "awesome" as well. Without additional evidence, it seems as though the Heralds did not have a Nahel Bond, and as such require an Honorblade to use stormlight. However, I do not recall Lift's description of Nalan's Blade to be anything out of the ordinary as far as Shardblades go. Is there, then, the possibility that Nalan does NOT have an Honorblade? If so, do we have enough information to extrapolate where it could possibly be?

 

      I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this. 

 

      A second question came to mind just as I was about to post this: How did the Stone Shamans end up with ALL of the Honorblades? In Kalak's introductory chapter in WoK, there is no description of trees, grass, or dirt. Only rock. Shinovar, as we know, is the only place on the continent that has Earth-like...well...earth. Do we have any theories on how that came to pass? Are the stone shamans remnants of a Herald-worshipping cult from the Shadowdays (Proto-Vorinism?), or is it likely something else entirely? 

 

     Once again, I'd love to hear your comments on this!

[Moogle]

Hi there, welcome to the forums.
 
A few things people have asked Brandon and have gotten answers on:

Rybal
Q:  Can the Heralds Surgebind without their Blades and if not are they under the same restrictions that others are.
A:  The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you're familiar with.  It doesn't mean there aren't other things they can do.
(source)

 
We also know from a signed book (take a look here) that one Herald took back their Blade.
 
Nalan seems like he did in fact take back his Blade, like you suggested. I don't think he'd be able to take in Stormlight unless he did, and Lift seems pretty certain he did that.
 
Also, in regards to Nalan: it's entirely possible he has a regular Shardblade, as well as his Honorblade, and summoned the regular Shardblade in his chase of Lift. It's also possible his Honorblade doesn't look special - Szeth's changed over the centuries to lose a lot of its ornamentation.
 
There is also this WoB:

Q: Did Nalan's eyes change when he killed Ym? (And attempted to kill Lift)
A: (He thought a moment again) No, I don't think so.
(source)

 

Assuming the theory that eye color changes when you summon an Honorblade (as happens to Szeth) is true, this means he would have summoned a regular Shardblade. It's also possible his eyes are "permanently" the color his Honorblade would change his eyes to, though, or that this doesn't happen to Heralds.

 

Notably, "Taln" does not have his eyes change color when he has his "Honorblade" out at the end of TWoK (he's still darkeyed), so it doesn't seem like Taln is in fact Taln. Or at least that he wasn't holding an Honorblade. The Blade he had was still switched at some point though (Dalinar's Blade in WoR is from Taln supposedly, and its description does not match).

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[RawToast225]

I wasn't aware that Nalan was the one who tried to kill Lift. Good to know.

 

What if he didn't recover his blade, but someone else recovered theirs and are just living among the Stone Shamans. That'd be cool.

[Mimiddle04]

Szeth's changed over the centuries to lose a lot of its ornamentation.

 

 

Is this why it's "smaller" than a normal Shardblade?  I knew there was a WoB where someone asked if Szeth's blade was irregularly small and Brandon said it was but I never knew why that was significant.

 

 

   However, I do not recall Lift's description of Nalan's Blade to be anything out of the ordinary as far as Shardblades go.

 

Is there any reason we have to believe Honorblades would look significantly different enough from a regular Blade that they'd stand out when someone described one?  I mean every Shardblade is different, and they're rare, so I doubt no matter what one looked like anyone would think it looked weird.

 

Along the same line, Lift, being a thief and presumably poor, has probably never seen a Shardblade and therefore wouldn't know that the one she saw looked different than it should have.  So I don't find it remarkable that she didn't describe it as different.

[Secret Ardent Man]

 in regards to Nalan: it's entirely possible he has a regular Shardblade, as well as his Honorblade, and summoned the regular Shardblade in his chase of Lift. It's also possible his Honorblade doesn't look special - Szeth's changed over the centuries to lose a lot of its ornamentation.

 

 

I don't understand the "ornamentation" comment. As far as we know, shardblades need no upkeep or care. There has not yet been an instance where a shardblade is described as being ornamented or painted like shardplate. Why, then, would an Honorblade--the ostensible precursor to a shardblade--change over time? If an Honorblade is a piece of Honor himself, why would it degrade? Shards-and conceivably splinters as well-shouldn't degrade, as they are simply power. 

 

Can one even decorate a shardblade or Honorblade? Wouldn't the ornamentation just disappear when you dismiss the blade? I don't know why an Honorblade would diminish in size over time either, as there is no suggestion that the Shardblades (all of which have existed since the Recreance centuries ago) diminish over time due to age, wear and tear, or something spren-y. Heck, Some of them are described as being practically 6 feet long! 

[Messremb]

All shard blades have had gems added to the hilt to allow them to be summoned and dismissed. It not and unreasonable leap from that to assume that some ornamentation could have been added to them at some point.  

 

Also it's possible Honor being dead may have had an impact on the honor blades, or perhaps the answer is even simpler. we know that shard blades are able to change at the will of the radiant wielding them, and they were fashioned to be similar to the Honor blades, perhaps the honor blades can change at the will of the person wielding them. that would make sense with the fact that shin seem to be a humble people and so as time went on the honor blades changed to match what the shin thought they should be.

[Moogle]

Regarding Shardblades:

Q:  Glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades-
A:  There's a similarity, but they are also very different.
Q:  Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.
A:  No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.

(source)

 

The Honorblades were described as masterworks of art:

But no. Kalak frowned as he stepped up to the base of the spire. Seven magnificent swords stood proudly here, driven point-first into the stone ground. Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one.

 

Compare this to Szeth's description of his Honorblade:

It formed as if condensing from mist, water beading along the metal length. His Shardblade was long and thin, edged on both sides, smaller than most others. Szeth swept it out, carving a line in the stone floor and passing through the second guard’s neck.

 

No description of glyphs, or anything. Before anyone says, "Maybe Szeth just doesn't pay attention!", here's Kaladin's view of it:

He lifted Szeth’s sword off his shoulder and set it down, point first, in front of him. It sank a few inches into the rock. “What about this?” he asked, looking over the thin, silvery weapon. An unornamented Blade. That was supposed to be odd. “It doesn’t scream when I hold it.”
 

It is clear that over time, Szeth's Honorblade lost all of its glyphs and no longer counts as a "masterly work of art". This is consistent with most other Splinters, which are influenced by perceptions of them quite heavily.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Oudeis]

Minor point of possibly pedantic clarification... Kalak looked at seven blades. the three he did not look at was Taln's, who'd been sent back, his own... and Jezrien's. While I do not personally support the theory that these seven were the masterworks, and the Herald of Kings just happened to have the only plain one, technically the quote you cited doesn't directly refer to the same Blade.

[Zas678]

Knowing how determined he is.... Hoid's got it.

 

Not that he'd have much use for it, seeing as he's committed to not killing. But he might just do it to say that he did. 

 

No, I doubt that Hoid's got it. I'm not sure who would have it. We'll see....

[Oudeis]

All 10 have been accounted for, in that we know Hoid has none of them. The only one he had access to was Taln's missing/switched Blade, and there's WoB that Hoid did not take that Blade.

 

...Actually I think it specifically says he did not swap the Blades. I wonder, could he have gotten it in some manner other than swapping? Now I need to find and re-read that specific WoB....

[WeiryWriter]

We do have this WoB:

 

 

Q:  Does Hoid have 2 Honorblades?
A:  Hoid currently has no Honorblades.

 

(source)

[Oudeis]

I dunno, Weiry. There's an awful lot of wiggle room in that WoB...

 

I find this amusing and curious. He's willing to RAFO us on so many things. He is strangely very clear and insistent that Hoid has no Honorblades.

[Titan Arum]

Sorry to hijack this post with a different question but...what's up with all the Ookla name changes? I know that was Peter's name on TWG, but this change is pretty recent for everyone on the 17th Shard, no?

 

I may be ignorant, but the only Ookla I am even aware about is Ookla the Mok. Is he the reference?

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

I dunno, Weiry. There's an awful lot of wiggle room in that WoB...

 

I find this amusing and curious. He's willing to RAFO us on so many things. He is strangely very clear and insistent that Hoid has no Honorblades.

 

Currently.

[WeiryWriter]

Sorry to hijack this post with a different question but...what's up with all the Ookla name changes? I know that was Peter's name on TWG, but this change is pretty recent for everyone on the 17th Shard, no?

 

I may be ignorant, but the only Ookla I am even aware about is Ookla the Mok. Is he the reference?

 

It's Ookla the Mokovial!

[Windreader]

It's Ookla the Mokovial!

Well. That makes much more sense! I was completely confused. To bad I missed it...

[Kipper]

Hi there, welcome to the forums.

 

A few things people have asked Brandon and have gotten answers on:

 

We also know from a signed book (take a look here) that one Herald took back their Blade.

 

Nalan seems like he did in fact take back his Blade, like you suggested. I don't think he'd be able to take in Stormlight unless he did, and Lift seems pretty certain he did that.

 

Also, in regards to Nalan: it's entirely possible he has a regular Shardblade, as well as his Honorblade, and summoned the regular Shardblade in his chase of Lift. It's also possible his Honorblade doesn't look special - Szeth's changed over the centuries to lose a lot of its ornamentation.

 

There is also this WoB:

 

Assuming the theory that eye color changes when you summon an Honorblade (as happens to Szeth) is true, this means he would have summoned a regular Shardblade. It's also possible his eyes are "permanently" the color his Honorblade would change his eyes to, though, or that this doesn't happen to Heralds.

 

Notably, "Taln" does not have his eyes change color when he has his "Honorblade" out at the end of TWoK (he's still darkeyed), so it doesn't seem like Taln is in fact Taln. Or at least that he wasn't holding an Honorblade. The Blade he had was still switched at some point though (Dalinar's Blade in WoR is from Taln supposedly, and its description does not match).

Moogle, I just got this info from a signing thread: (copy of another post I made earlier.

It ("Taln's" Shardblade) has been confirmed not to be an Honorblade by this new transcript. (32:14)

Relevant quote:

Q: The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance, was that the Honorblade?

A: The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance that he gave up?

Q: Yeah, that he gave up.

A: No it was not.

Q: It was not? So what happened to the Honorblade that the Herald had?

A: Nobody kno- Well, somebody knows, but it is not known to the main characters.

Q: Can I ask if uh, Hoid-

A: If Hoid knows?

Q: Yeah.

A: Hoid did not take it, but I’m not answering whether he knows.

[Moogle]

Moogle, I just got this info from a signing thread: (copy of another post I made earlier.

It ("Taln's" Shardblade) has been confirmed not to be an Honorblade by this new transcript. (32:14)

 

The Shardblade Dalinar ended up with was not the one "Taln" originally had, so that doesn't tell us much unfortunately. (Discussion on that here.)

[Darkness]

I don't understand the "ornamentation" comment. As far as we know, shardblades need no upkeep or care. There has not yet been an instance where a shardblade is described as being ornamented or painted like shardplate. Why, then, would an Honorblade--the ostensible precursor to a shardblade--change over time? If an Honorblade is a piece of Honor himself, why would it degrade? Shards-and conceivably splinters as well-shouldn't degrade, as they are simply power. 

 

Can one even decorate a shardblade or Honorblade? Wouldn't the ornamentation just disappear when you dismiss the blade? I don't know why an Honorblade would diminish in size over time either, as there is no suggestion that the Shardblades (all of which have existed since the Recreance centuries ago) diminish over time due to age, wear and tear, or something spren-y. Heck, Some of them are described as being practically 6 feet long! 

 Knowing how important the character's convictions and "cognitive paradigm" is in the magical system of Roshar (and the greater Cosmere), it isn't too much of a stretch to think that shard/honorblades become ornamented through the users' opinions of them. For instance, the Heralds were understandably "awesome", and knew it, so their blades reflected that.

The Shin are generally referred to as a more rustic, simple people, so it could make sense that any blades they hold became more simple over time. Especially if the blades were regarded as a tool to be used occasionally, but nothing more spectacular. WoB says that honorblades can change appearance slowly over time, so that may have happened to Szeth's honorblade.