Do hemalergic spikes contain Preservation's or Ruin's investiture?

[The Living Avo]

When you spike an allomancer, you should be storing Preservation's investiture. Why then are the Mists and the Well of Ascension repelled by hemalergy? Does the investiture somehow become Ruin's?

[Mystfall He/Him]

3 minutes ago, The Living Avo said:

When you spike an allomancer, you should be storing Preservation's investiture. Why then are the Mists and the Well of Ascension repelled by hemalergy? Does the investiture somehow become Ruin's?

Pretty much yes. We know Allomancy is of preservation, Hemalurgy is of Ruin, and Feruchemy is both.(Allomancy is end positive, power is gained. Hemalurgy is end negative, power is lost. And feruchemy is end neutral, power is neither lost nor gained) Anyways, Hemalurgy is of Ruin, and that’s what the Mists are reacting too. Ruins influence through his art. Ruin is essentially, through Hemalurgy, corrupting(in the eyes of the original power) it.(think of it similarly to enlightened Spren on Roshar) when I use hemalurgy to steal pewter, I’m not using Preservations power to burn pewter, I’m using Ruins. 

[The Living Avo]

2 hours ago, Mystfall said:

Pretty much yes. We know Allomancy is of preservation, Hemalurgy is of Ruin, and Feruchemy is both.(Allomancy is end positive, power is gained. Hemalurgy is end negative, power is lost. And feruchemy is end neutral, power is neither lost nor gained) Anyways, Hemalurgy is of Ruin, and that’s what the Mists are reacting too. Ruins influence through his art. Ruin is essentially, through Hemalurgy, corrupting(in the eyes of the original power) it.(think of it similarly to enlightened Spren on Roshar) when I use hemalurgy to steal pewter, I’m not using Preservations power to burn pewter, I’m using Ruins. 

The part about using Ruin's power to fuel Allomancy makes sense. I'm still confused as to whose investiture is charging the spike. Is the investiture's Shardic Intent (if that makes sense. I forget if that's the right term.) flipped from Preservation to Ruin? Is it Preservation plus a bit of Ruin? I guess I just don't understand what Corruption means in the Cosmere. Like I have the same questions for Glys. (Is he made of Honor/Cultivation, Odium or all three?)

[Mystfall He/Him]

21 minutes ago, The Living Avo said:

The part about using Ruin's power to fuel Allomancy makes sense. I'm still confused as to whose investiture is charging the spike. Is the investiture's Shardic Intent (if that makes sense. I forget if that's the right term.) flipped from Preservation to Ruin? Is it Preservation plus a bit of Ruin? I guess I just don't understand what Corruption means in the Cosmere. Like I have the same questions for Glys. (Is he made of Honor/Cultivation, Odium or all three?)

I believe it’s preservation and ruin, and the mists don’t like the ruin part. And Glys is all three I think 

[The Living Avo]

Ok thanks. I just found a WoB on Corruption.

Quote

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

 

It isn't the clearest, but I think this means Corruption means you're adding additional, foreign investiture. For example, I think Autonomy was Corrupting Harmony by investing him. (somehow)

[Returned he/him]

Hemalurgy is more about the action of spiking and less about what is stolen via the spike. Creating a hemalurgic spike that steals an Invested Art tears away a part of a person's spiritweb/soul and stores it in the spike. The tearing and theft/diminishment of the spiritweb/soul is the ruinous thing, not whatever the spike stores, and that's what the mists are recoiling from. The spike is always ruinous in the same sense that Allomancy is always drawing on Preservation's power via an enhanced connection to that Shard, and what it steals is part of the person who was spiked rather than a piece of Preservation itself. It's also worth noting that the mists don't seem to recoil from Mistwraiths or Kandra even though they are fundamentally hemalurgic creations. Unless I'm forgetting something, or it's just not highlighted in the narration. So either there is more to it or there is some imprecision at play.

I'm not sure that a hemalurgist uses Ruin's Investiture to fuel Allomancy (I don't recall any commentary that supports it offhand, though it's late and I'm tired so I might just be blanking), and that wouldn't be consistent with at least some other applications. A feruchemist who gained their power through Hemalurgy still has to fuel it exclusively with their own attributes, someone who stole a Radiant bond would (presumably) still need Stormlight (or other, loose Investiture) to use their powers, etc., and spike-derived Allomancy seems identical to "natural" Allomancy. I don't think that corruption is related either, though we have seen some hemalurgists who were also corrupted. The stolen bit of spiritweb/soul is what it always was, there is just a bit less of it due to loss inherent to the process. That said, there is a lot about Hemalurgy that we don't know so I'm not too comfortable saying it definitely is or is not some particular way.

If you're deathly allergic to peanut butter, and someone slathers the outside of a box in peanut butter, you would probably avoid touching the box. What's inside the box is totally unrelated to that aversion.

Edited 12 hours ago by Returned

[PanLin they/he]

13 hours ago, The Living Avo said:

When you spike an allomancer, you should be storing Preservation's investiture. Why then are the Mists and the Well of Ascension repelled by hemalergy? Does the investiture somehow become Ruin's?

The spike itself draws on Ruin's Investiture to create a hemalurgic spike. Hemalurgy is a destructive power that forcibly rips chunks of spiritweb off the target; both the Investiture itself and the method by which it works are repellent to Preservation.

Hemalurgy, as Ruin's Invested Art, inherently corrupts and damages everything it touches, even if what it's holding onto is a piece of Preservation.

A spike could contain any ability, and the mists would react the same, and they seem to react to hemalurgic constructs, too. From the wiki:

Spoiler

Any Allomancer with a spike will slightly repulse the mists as if they were pushing it away from them.^[27] Additionally, certain Hemalurgic Constructs such as Koloss will sense a "hatred" from the mists.^[28]

 

12 hours ago, Mystfall said:

when I use hemalurgy to steal pewter, I’m not using Preservations power to burn pewter, I’m using Ruins. 

This isn't true—the hemalurgy itself is Ruin's power. When you use it to steal an allomantic ability, you're stealing the part of the target's spiritweb that contains the innate piece of Preservation's soul that allows for allomancy. When you graft that spike to yourself and use the allomantic ability, you're still using Preservation's power; it's just a stolen power.

Edited 4 hours ago by PanLin

[The Living Avo]

This is more of a tangent, but why is Harmonium so unstable, but Scadrian spirit-webs are not. Are they like grandfathered in from a time when the shards were friendlier to each other? Also, why would the Mists be repulsed by hemalergy, but not the investiture you get from preservation when burning a metal. Is it because the Mists are more sentiant?

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, The Living Avo said:

This is more of a tangent, but why is Harmonium so unstable, but Scadrian spirit-webs are not. Are they like grandfathered in from a time when the shards were friendlier to each other? Also, why would the Mists be repulsed by hemalergy, but not the investiture you get from preservation when burning a metal. Is it because the Mists are more sentiant?

I'm not sure there's a clear, canonical answer. My speculation is that Scadrian spiritwebs are relatively low in Investiture, and free will was one of the core goals of creating the Scadrians. So there is less Shardic power to interact, stably or otherwise, and people have more than just specific Shardic Investiture in them (enough to buffer the components somehow, maybe?), and they were designed in a way that allowed the Shardic components to coexist so that humans could exist. Harmonium is a direct manifestation of Harmony and is nothing but that manifestation, so it is comprised 100% of opposed forces.

The mists are a physical manifestation of Preservation, just like the lerasium beads and pool at the Well of Ascension are. Allomancy is fundamentally of Preservation, so one way of summing it up is that Preservation is not repelled by Preservation; they're the same. Hemalurgy is fundamentally of Ruin, which is directly opposed to Preservation, and so the mists are repelled by their opposite.

Edited 1 hour ago by Returned

[alder24]

16 hours ago, The Living Avo said:

When you spike an allomancer, you should be storing Preservation's investiture. Why then are the Mists and the Well of Ascension repelled by hemalergy? Does the investiture somehow become Ruin's?

While this hasn't been confirmed anywhere, I do believe that the process of Hemalurgy partially corrupts investiture it steals, turning it into Ruin's investiture. This does seem to fit with other forms of corruption we saw so far, and it fits to how Brandon describes corruption - mixing of different Shards that changed something. Therefore, it makes sense that Hemalurgy, which is all about stealing, is corrupting investiture as well.

Spoiler

Blightsong

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers.

Blightsong

So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

Blightsong

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

Brandon Sanderson

*contemplative silence* RAFO.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Roger

As I understand it, red is a sign of corruption in the cosmere. I just reread The Emperor's Soul, and it mentioned wisps of red smoke when Shai tests the Soulstamps. Does this mean she is corrupting Gaotona's soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is what that means. Corruption doesn't have to have the negative connotation, right? Basically, it means an outside influence is changing the Spiritual nature of the soul. And, yeah, that's exactly what is happening right there. Now, I would call that a pretty good thing, but... like, all of those things, where she is playing with someone's soul, and changing it, and changing their past, and things like this. This is, by cosmere definition, corrupting someone's soul. That's expressly what it is.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

 

11 hours ago, Returned said:

I'm not sure that a hemalurgist uses Ruin's Investiture to fuel Allomancy (I don't recall any commentary that supports it offhand, though it's late and I'm tired so I might just be blanking)

There are WoBs suggesting this is happening:

Spoiler

Zantis

Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.  Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy.

Zantis

Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And--

Brandon Sanderson

I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Czanos

Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts?

Brandon Sanderson

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

2 hours ago, The Living Avo said:

This is more of a tangent, but why is Harmonium so unstable, but Scadrian spirit-webs are not. Are they like grandfathered in from a time when the shards were friendlier to each other?

Harmonium is unstable because it's Harmony's god metal and Harmony is unstable. Scadrians were made by Shards, Harmonium manifested itself reflecting Sazed and Harmony's state.

Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

Harmonium is ettmetal... Its chemicals properties are sort of analogous to cesium. It explodes in contact with water. People are made out of water. You try to spike someone, you try to swallow it, you try to wear it as jewelry, it will not end well. Why in the world would he pick something so inharmonious?

Brandon Sanderson

He didn't pick it. It's unstable because of the two halves of him not meshing well.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

2 hours ago, The Living Avo said:

Also, why would the Mists be repulsed by hemalergy, but not the investiture you get from preservation when burning a metal. Is it because the Mists are more sentiant?

In Era 1 Hemalurgy repulses Mists because Hemalurgy is of Ruin and Mists are of Preservation. Burning metals provides an Allomancer with Preservation's investiture, which draws Mists towards them because they are the same thing. In Era 2 this doesn't happen, normally Mists weren't repelled by Hemalurgy, however during TLM Mists were once more repelled by spike in Wax, reflecting how unstable Harmony has become. 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventeen

The Mists Form

In writing this book, I had to nail down a few worldbuilding issues I'd been contemplating even before the first trilogy ended. What would happen to the mists, for instance, once Sazed took over and became Harmony?

The mists, obviously, are a big part of the series. It didn't make sense—either narratively or worldbuilding-wise—to lose them completely. However, they'd been created as an effect of Preservation trying to use his essence to fight against Ruin's destruction of the world. So . . . wouldn't they go away?

I decided that Sazed would still send them. They're part of the nature of the world now. To acknowledge what had happened, they wouldn't come every night any longer. But they would come. They were changed in that they are no longer simply the raw power of Preservation; they're now a part of Harmony—so they no longer pull away from Hemalurgy in the same way as they used to. They still have the odd effect of being able to power Allomancy. (And Feruchemy as well—if one knows how to do it.)

The mists are, in part, the raw power of creation. And when one is favored of Harmony, the mists have a greater effect than they might otherwise have. We'll see more of this later.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (Nov. 30, 2015)