Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted January 13 Posted January 13 Full disclosure, this is a repost from my reddit, but I feel like the discussion could go further here. Broadly speaking, I see 3 main ways they could be formed. They could be natural formations, Shardic creations, or Human or Singer developed technology. I'll tell you up front I'm in camp 3, but I'll spend a little bit of time going into why I don't like the other two options. The first is natural formations. Every once in a while the perfect conditions line up and a Greatshell grows a perfect gemstone. I find this **extremely** implausible, but it is closely tied to option 1.5 Shardic offshoot. They could be "natural" creations. The Atium at the Pits of Hathsin are "natural". The invested sunlight of Taldain is "natural". Aether spores on Lumar are "natural". I find this **even more** implausible for a quite particular reason. Odium's perpendicularity is under the Shattered Plains. If perfect gemstones were cropping up around perpendicularities then we would have seen them in the Chasmfiends throughout the first half of the series. Addendum: the most pushback I got on reddit was about why I thought naturally occurring ones were so implausible. To clarify a bit more, we know that cut gems hold more light. A better cut gem holds more light. Gemhearts are notably bulbous. Gemhearts and perfect gemstones seem to be on the opposite ends of a spectrum. Possibility two, they could be direct Shardic creations. I think this is actually very plausible, especially considering Melishi's perfect gem and Honor's direct involvement with Bo-Ado-Misharm's imprisonment. It's also boring. "Honor did it," is just the end of the conversation. I don't deny the plausiabilty of this; I just don't think it will lead to an interesting discussion. That leaves us with Human/Singer Invention, and the RPG gave us just the clues I needed to start thinking about this. Extremely skilled practitioners of Cohesion can manipulate more than stone. They can manipulate any inorganic solid matter. Unbound Cohesion states, "You can use Cohesion and its talents not only on stone, but on any solid material that isn’t alive, Invested, or infused with Stormlight." To me it seems to explicitly include uninvested gemstones. There's also True Stoneshaping which makes more intricate formations easier. "When you use Cohesion to shape an object or surface, you can automatically reshape it to your will without using additional actions or time. For example, you can instantly raise or lower elevation, form walls or pillars, create or remove difficult terrain, or create intricate shapes or images." We are talking about utter masters of Cohesions individuals who could shape gemstones more granularly then the finest jeweler imaginable. Cohesion is a cousin of microkinesis. A sufficiently skilled user could manipulate objects atom by atom. I believe they could create a perfect gemstone. Cohesion can be accessed by Stonewards, Willshapers, and Deepest Ones. There is one of these groups that I think is particularly likely to be the creators. This is largely speculation, but it seems reasonable that a perfect gemstone would manifest differently than a normal gemstone in the Cognitive Realm. Willshapers also have access to Transportation and the ability to peer into Shadesmar. If there is some kind of "click" in the Cognitive Realm, a Willshaper could see it. If only Willshapers can create them it even explains why they are so remarkably rare. Most people would mass produce these marvels of technology, but Willshapers, recognizing that they are also a perfect prison. Would only create them with the upmost consideration, thought, and desperation. That's all my initial thoughts and below are some WoBs that add to the discussion. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/504/#e15812 This one keys into the perfect crystalline structure and, to me, fully rules out natural occurrences, but I do think Cohesion, a cousin to microkinesis, could force that perfection. Later in it the questioner does ask about natural gemstones, but Brandon just says that gemstones in general can form naturally, not perfect ones. I acknowledge the ambiguity though. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/445/#e14211 This one seems to vaguely support the ideal of synthetic perfect gemstones. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/144/#e2702 Here's a little more on synthetic works in general. A couple miscellaneous points now. Jasnah mentions that she thinks there should be more around. This could be because she's an Elsecaller and had a radically different philosophy than a Willshaper. There do seem to be a lot of perfect gemstones in Shadesmar. Maybe in the lead up to the Recreance is when the Willshapers realized what perfect prisons they had created. Maybe one caught wind of Melishi's plan and shared with the other Willshapers. Then they dropped the perfect gemstones off in Shadesmar with the Spren. Trusting them more than humanity. We know that Kalak was involved with the capture of Bo-Ado-Mishram. Maybe he made Melishi's perfect heliodor. The epigraph of chapter 30 WoR could be support for this idea. "[Melishi] could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address." It could be specifically the Herald Kalak and his mastery of Cohesion and Transportation. I'm not 100% sure of the timeline here, in fact, I'm pretty confident he didn't have his Honorblade. Maybe Kalak passed the knowledge onto Melishi and then Melishi to the Willshapers.
Jult Posted January 13 Posted January 13 Interesting ideas. I do think they are likely manmade or at least partially manmade. Naturally occurring just seems too improbable. 3 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: That leaves us with Human/Singer Invention, and the RPG gave us just the clues I needed to start thinking about this. Extremely skilled practitioners of Cohesion can manipulate more than stone. They can manipulate any inorganic solid matter. Unbound Cohesion states, "You can use Cohesion and its talents not only on stone, but on any solid material that isn’t alive, Invested, or infused with Stormlight." To me it seems to explicitly include uninvested gemstones. I could see several of the Surges being useful for the creation of perfect gemstones. We haven't seen much Division in action, but the RPG says it can be used for "elaborate etching or shaping". And Dustbringers tend to enjoy engineering and tinkering. I could see the potential for using very precise Division to eliminate imperfections in a gemstone. Transformation could maybe be used to simply convert some stone into a perfect gemstone. Though a small note there is that Soulcasters (the ancient fabrials - not the people) are allegedly unable to create polestones. TWoK: Spoiler Quote "...Soulcasters were very rare in Jah Keved, and her family’s marble, jade, and opal would sell at a premium. They couldn’t create actual gemstones with a Soulcaster —that was said to be impossible—but they could create other deposits of near equal value." -TWoK Chapter 33 Though that rule might not apply to Radiants. Or Shallan could just be an unreliable narrator. And then there's Progression. Most gemstones on Roshar are actually gemhearts; which are body parts.. So, I wonder if Progression can be used to 'heal' a gemheart to resemble a more perfect version of itself?
Treamayne Posted January 13 Posted January 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: Broadly speaking, I see 3 main ways they could be formed. They could be natural formations, Shardic creations, or Human or Singer developed technology. I'll tell you up front I'm in camp 3, but I'll spend a little bit of time going into why I don't like the other two options. The first is natural formations. Every once in a while the perfect conditions line up and a Greatshell grows a perfect gemstone. I find this **extremely** implausible, but it is closely tied to option 1.5 Shardic offshoot. They could be "natural" creations. The Atium at the Pits of Hathsin are "natural". The invested sunlight of Taldain is "natural". Aether spores on Lumar are "natural". I find this **even more** implausible for a quite particular reason. Odium's perpendicularity is under the Shattered Plains. If perfect gemstones were cropping up around perpendicularities then we would have seen them in the Chasmfiends throughout the first half of the series. You are missing the most likely source - option 1a. WoB: Spoiler Questioner We know that finer gemstones like the King's Drop can hold Stormlight longer and encases other things that I won't say because of spoilers. Is that because of the craftsmanship, connecting their Identity in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Excellent question. "You can hold Stormlight in gemstones, and the more perfect a gemstone the more Stormlight it'll hold. Is the craftsmanship required to create it part of the reason why?" And no, it's actually the crystalline structure. Fewer flaws in the crystalline structure means fewer places for the Stormlight to wiggle out. Questioner Do gemstones exist naturally on Roshar? Or are they all gemhearts? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but you gotta dig through lots of layers of cremstone to get to them, so most of the time you're getting them from gemhearts. New York Comic Con 2022 (Oct. 8, 2022) The most likely source is Mined Gemstones - not Gemhearts. The "perfect" part of a Perfect Gemstone is the crystalline structure - and such exists through mining, not a biologic process. Just because modern Rosharans rarely mine their gems (due to 7+ millennia of Crem build-up) does not mean the Desolations and Epochs were similarly devoid of Gem Mines (back when all the known Perfect Gemstones were originally found and named). It seems to be tied to (Mistborn spoilers): Spoiler Metallic structure and alloy purity - because Allomantic metals are also tied to the molecular structure and "bad metals" are those with impurities - just as normal gemstones are those with flaws in the crystalline structure. WoB Spoiler PhantomMonstrosity (paraphrased) Do synthetic gemstones work in fabrials too? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Synthetic gemstones should work. It's a combination of color and chemical structure that's important. Just like metals from off Scadrial would work for an Allomancer, synthetic gemstones should work. Steel Ministry report (Aug. 20, 2014) Hope that helps Edited January 13 by Treamayne SPAG
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted January 13 Author Posted January 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jult said: Interesting ideas. I do think they are likely manmade or at least partially manmade. Naturally occurring just seems too improbable. I could see several of the Surges being useful for the creation of perfect gemstones. We haven't seen much Division in action, but the RPG says it can be used for "elaborate etching or shaping". And Dustbringers tend to enjoy engineering and tinkering. I could see the potential for using very precise Division to eliminate imperfections in a gemstone. Transformation could maybe be used to simply convert some stone into a perfect gemstone. Though a small note there is that Soulcasters (the ancient fabrials - not the people) are allegedly unable to create polestones. TWoK: Hide contents Though that rule might not apply to Radiants. Or Shallan could just be an unreliable narrator. And then there's Progression. Most gemstones on Roshar are actually gemhearts; which are body parts.. So, I wonder if Progression can be used to 'heal' a gemheart to resemble a more perfect version of itself? I hadn't even considered other surges, that's a really interesting idea. It does seem that Division could be that delicate according to Szeth, and Transformation would make sense with why the Elsecaller's took possession of Honor's Drop. Progression would be trickiest, but Magnified Ones do use the surge in a why more akin to bio engineering. 23 minutes ago, Treamayne said: You are missing the most likely source - option 1a. WoB: Hide contents Questioner We know that finer gemstones like the King's Drop can hold Stormlight longer and encases other things that I won't say because of spoilers. Is that because of the craftsmanship, connecting their Identity in the Cognitive Realm? Brandon Sanderson Excellent question. "You can hold Stormlight in gemstones, and the more perfect a gemstone the more Stormlight it'll hold. Is the craftsmanship required to create it part of the reason why?" And no, it's actually the crystalline structure. Fewer flaws in the crystalline structure means fewer places for the Stormlight to wiggle out. Questioner Do gemstones exist naturally on Roshar? Or are they all gemhearts? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but you gotta dig through lots of layers of cremstone to get to them, so most of the time you're getting them from gemhearts. New York Comic Con 2022 (Oct. 8, 2022) The most likely source is Mined Gemstones - not Gemhearts. The "perfect" part of a Perfect Gemstone is the crystalline structure - and such exists through mining, not a biologic process. Just because modern Rosharans rarely mine their gems (due to 7+ millennia of Crem build-up) does not mean the Desolations and Epochs were similarly devoid of Gem Mines (back when all the known Perfect Gemstones were originally found and named). It seems to be tied to (Mistborn spoilers): Hide contents Metallic structure and alloy purity - because Allomantic metals are also tied to the molecular structure and "bad metals" are those with impurities - just as normal gemstones are those with flaws in the crystalline structure. WoB Reveal hidden contents PhantomMonstrosity (paraphrased) Do synthetic gemstones work in fabrials too? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Synthetic gemstones should work. It's a combination of color and chemical structure that's important. Just like metals from off Scadrial would work for an Allomancer, synthetic gemstones should work. Steel Ministry report (Aug. 20, 2014) Hope that helps I've seen this idea, and I just don't think it's possible with the geology of Roshar. Gemstone mines, seem to me to be, places where a lot of animals died and you can now dig up the gemhearts that are buried in crem. Several Polestones require the immense heat and pressure deep within a planet to form. Roshar has no tectonics, so they would never come anywhere near the surface. Even IRL not all gemstones we mine up have a "perfect lattice structure." Many imperfections and impurities form in most gemstones. Granted, I'm not a geologist and would be eager to read anything about how a normal gemstone could reach Roshar's surface, but I think this may be a case where Brandon didn't think his answer all the way through. I know, cardinal sin, I'm relying on WoBs and dismissing another one. I just really don't think naturally occurring gemstones are possible without tectonics. Edit: I'm not trying to say you're absolutely wrong and so is Brandon. I just don't understand how it could happen given that the cosmere typically follows real world physics and chemistry to a fairly strong degree. Edited January 13 by Elsecaller_17.5 2
Treamayne Posted January 13 Posted January 13 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: Edit: I'm not trying to say you're absolutely wrong and so is Brandon. I just don't understand how it could happen given that the cosmere typically follows real world physics and chemistry to a fairly strong degree. It does - but you are also dismissing that Surges could have accessed much deeper mines than that tech-level would normally indicate. Why do you need tectonics to move natural gemstones to the top of the crust, when you can go down as deep as needed to find what you want. And there had to be some tectonic activity in Roshar's past, or there would not be Mountain ranges today. I'm not saying your theories are impossible, merely pointing out that you are dismissing an option without thoroughly evaluating it. Edited January 13 by Treamayne SPAG
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted January 13 Author Posted January 13 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Treamayne said: It does - but you are also dismissing that Surges could have accessed much deaper mines that that tech-level would normally indicate. Why do you need tectonics to move natural gemstones to the top of the crust, when you can go down as deep as needed to find what you want. And there had to be some tectonic activity in Roshar's past, or there would not be Mountain ranges today. I'm not saying your theories are impossible, merely pointing out that you are dismissing an option without thoroughly evaluating it. No, you're right. I had not considered surge enabled mining (and I probably am too attached to my theory). I will push back on the mountain thing though. I don't believe it ever had tectonics. It seems to have been created whole, mountains included. Quote Questioner Does Roshar have plate tectonics? Brandon Sanderson Roshar does not have plate tectonics, good question. Questioner Well when I met you in Orem, I was asking about frequencies. And you said it was more the shape of the plate-- The frequency. We've got no plate tectonics, we've got people who like to sing. Brandon Sanderson Good question. Now the weird thing that we would have is with the crem, we have to do some weird geology gymnastics, because Roshar is moving... Roshar, the continent of Roshar, it's moving, right? As it gets weathered and things like this. Making Roshar actually work requires some really interesting scientific gymnastics. But one of them is I just didn't think plate tectonics, or even volcanoes and things, is just not something that is going to work on Roshar the way that I built it. So I just stayed away from all of that. It's a pangaea. Questioners Is the pangaea built up of crem? Brandon Sanderson It's a pangaea built up of crem. Rubix Over a long time-- Brandon Sanderson Well no, because it was created at first. Bystander And then crem was on top of it? Brandon Sanderson ...The whole idea that this is a fractal-- The whole point of that is, somebody built this. Somebody built this using mathematics that you know. They said "Oh. Boom. Bing!" and grew themselves a continent. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7237 It's this WoB that I don't know how to reconcile with normal gemstones. Edit: just found this one. It seems to support the idea that Adonalsium just put them there. My least favorite solution, but I have to admit a plausible one. Quote Neuxue Does Roshar have a magnetic field? Brandon Sanderson Um, Roshar, magnetic field, yes, it does. Yes. Yeah it does Neuxue You said at one point that it is all one plate-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Neuxue --that there's no tectonic activity. What is the interior of the planet like? Brandon Sanderson That’s a good question... You're not going to get an answer on that one. It's a weird planet, let's just say that. It's a pretty weird planet Neuxue Are the diamonds naturally occurring? Brandon Sanderson Yes, but most are going to be-- They aren't-- all gemstones are naturally occurring, but most of, many or most of, the gems they are getting they are getting from creatures that grow them, not from the rock. Though there are mines on Roshar, you just have to-- most of them are on the leeward side of mountains, where the crem isn't being deposited. Neuxue So, diamond mines are about tectonics-- Brandon Sanderson It was a created planet, keep that in mind. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5294 Edited January 14 by Elsecaller_17.5 1
Treamayne Posted January 14 Posted January 14 36 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: It's this WoB that I don't know how to reconcile with normal gemstones. Edit: just found this one. It seems to support the idea that Adonalsium just put them there. My least favorite solution, but I have to admit a plausible one. I'm not certain I understand the quandry. Adonalsium made Roshar - and made it in such a way that Investiture (light) ties to Gemstones, and that native beings actually grow their own gemstones in symbiosis with the Planet's investiture cycle. But you do not think he also made a natural process for geologic mineral gemstones (despite a WoB impling he did) or that Radiants would have mined them? Sorry for my confusion.
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 Just now, Treamayne said: I'm not certain I understand the quandry. Adonalsium made Roshar - and made it in such a way that Investiture (light) ties to Gemstones, and that native beings actually grow their own gemstones in symbiosis with the Planet's investiture cycle. But you do not think he also made a natural process for geologic mineral gemstones (despite a WoB impling he did) or that Radiants would have mined them? Sorry for my confusion. In my mind the WoB about mining normal gemstones and the one about tectonics directly contradict each other. Maybe I need to find a geologist. If he did make a natural process for geological gemstones I don't understand what it could be.
Treamayne Posted January 14 Posted January 14 47 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: I will push back on the mountain thing though. I don't believe it ever had tectonics. BTW, Sorry I forgot to say thank you for the Julia Set reminder. I was obviously not thinking before. I'm sorry
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 1 minute ago, Treamayne said: BTW, Sorry I forgot to say thank you for the Julia Set reminder. I was obviously not thinking before. I'm sorry No worries, thank you for nerding out with me.
Treamayne Posted January 14 Posted January 14 1 hour ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said: If he did make a natural process for geological gemstones I don't understand what it could be. Well, for example, Corundum (Ruby/Sapphire) primarily occus in metamorphic rock, which only requires heat (>150C) and pressure (100MPa). Even if Roshar has no Tectonics, it must have a molten core so there is heat, and depth brings pressure. For that matter, magma is still likely (just without an outlet to the surface) so Beryl (Emerald, Heliodor) can still exist at depth. I do not think we can no for certain unless it is covered in the text, or we get new WoBs - but, to me, it's likely that all three could produce a Perfect Gemstone. Why would it be limited to one source?
Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 2 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Well, for example, Corundum (Ruby/Sapphire) primarily occus in metamorphic rock, which only requires heat (>150C) and pressure (100MPa). Even if Roshar has no Tectonics, it must have a molten core so there is heat, and depth brings pressure. For that matter, magma is still likely (just without an outlet to the surface) so Beryl (Emerald, Heliodor) can still exist at depth. I do not think we can no for certain unless it is covered in the text, or we get new WoBs - but, to me, it's likely that all three could produce a Perfect Gemstone. Why would it be limited to one source? Best case scenario, these gemstones are forming 20 kilometers deep (according to a guy on r/geology) that seems like an extreme depth even for surgemining. They're also saying that without tectonics or vulcanism they simply couldn't get to the surface (meaning, like 1 kilometer, I think). I've no doubt all of them exist deep within the planet. It has a magnetic field which means it has a molten core. They would form they same way they form on earth. They just wouldn't be accessible. I agree though, we're not going to know for certain without a WoB or book explanation.
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