The hazekiller coefficient

[Schizoposting]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Terminal velocity for a human with a human weight, not weighing over 2,000 pounds, while human size. Even assuming that the Windrunner by themselves weighed 200 pounds that's still a density increase by a factor of ten.

I don't think that shardplate can be lashed given how invested it is.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not to mention that Shardplate can adjust to become more aerodynamic, and they can adjust atmospheric pressure on top of that.

Only to a very limited extent, and only for Lightweavers. 

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Windrunners are just objectively better than any aircraft ever invented.

We have seen absolutely no indication the windrunners are capable at traveling at over mach 1 for any extend period of time, which would make them far inferior even to 4th generation fighters. 

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

How many individuals own nukes?

Not countries individuals.

In most places civilians don't have access to firearms; does that mean that hazekillers can't have guns? The point is that one's weaponry makes a huge impact on one's fighting prowess.

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

F35's are possibly the best all around fighter jet, so I used them to point out the futility of challenging Windrunner air superiority

Stealth is pointless against Radiants, since they don't have radar, and networking is useless without things to network to. So, many advantages of fifth generation fighters are irrelevant when facing a radiant 1 vs. 1. 

29 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

if the windrunner so much as touches the plane once it goes down. 

A PL-15 is beyond visual range, so a J-10 would just attack the Windrunner from 100 miles away, whilst the radiant would have no way of tracking it, even if they were capable at flying faster than mach 1.

33 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

 we still deal with the idea of why the hazekiller has that equipment. Similarly to the idea of would the hazekiller have nukes, why would they have a J-10C with PL-15s with AEW&C support? very few (if any) individuals own something like that.

Why wouldn't they have access to it? If Roshar invades era 3 Scadrial, you can bet that the Skybreakers will be facing "Hazekillers" with fighter jets.

40 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

and I think it would be a closer fight than you're expecting. I'd have to see how fast a windrunner is actually capable of moving before coming down on either side of the issue.

In the books they have never traveled faster than ~200 mph. But even if they could travel at hypersonic speeds, they would still lack the maneuverability of a fighter jet, due to aerodynamics. And again, traveling at such a speed would take a ridiculous number of lashes, and thus Stormlight, due to air resistance. 

[Immortal Platypus]

13 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

I don't think that shardplate can be lashed given how invested it is.

not 100% sure, but I believe it's stated (or at least implied) that shardplate that is aligned to a Radiant (their own living Plate) can be used simultaneously with their surges

Quote

Only to a very limited extent, and only for Lightweavers. 

false. we see in WaT non Lightweaver Unoathed Plate adjust substantially to support Adolin's leg, as well as Kaladin's plate change shape to fit and protect some people in the Tower, including a child. it can change a significant amount.

Quote

In most places civilians don't have access to firearms; does that mean that hazekillers can't have guns? The point is that one's weaponry makes a huge impact on one's fighting prowess.

true, but I can tell you about plenty of people that have firearms. I can tell you of none that have nukes. the point was that they would have the technology commonly available to the citizenry in their books/timeframe.

Quote

A PL-15 is beyond visual range, so a J-10 would just attack the Windrunner from 100 miles away, whilst the radiant would have no way of tracking it, even if they were capable at flying faster than mach 1.

we've been assuming an "inside an arena" style fight, so they're not going to be 100 miles away. although you're right about tracking being an issue. 

Quote

Why wouldn't they have access to it? If Roshar invades era 3 Scadrial, you can bet that the Skybreakers will be facing "Hazekillers" with fighter jets.

because those will be the trained army/air force members, not the common citizenry, which is what we're looking for here, at least by my understanding.

Quote

In the books they have never traveled faster than ~200 mph. But even if they could travel at hypersonic speeds, they would still lack the maneuverability of a fighter jet, due to aerodynamics. And again, traveling at such a speed would take a ridiculous number of lashes, and thus Stormlight, due to air resistance.

Requiring a lot of Stormlight is not good, but also to be expected when giving the other guy a fighter jet. this isn't canon and is pure speculation, but I feel like there's a chance that the Wind or windspren could do some funky stuff with the air. This is partially based on the scene where we see Syl kind of parting the highstorm where Kal is strung up.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

I mean, the obvious problem with this system is that it ignores all subtlety (but we knew that already), and thus can never be anything more than a piece of evidence in any argument.

However, it still does something incredibly useful, which is provide a useful metric for quantifying powerscaling. This is the most reasonable way of generically comparing power levels in sci-fi/fantasy, and it works regardless of the situation. This is... really useful! I personally think that it should be adopted as a universal measure in powerscaling debates.

OP upvoted.
 

EDIT: I have a few thoughts on how to reduce ambiguity in the system:
Hazekillers in Mistborn are specially trained assassins who have good (but not unobtainable) equipment. As such, let the Hazekiller Coefficient be defined as "The number of specially trained regular (nonmagical) people from the relevant setting it would take to defeat the relevant character using the best reasonably available equipment."

Edited January 11 by NerdyAarakocra

[Schizoposting]

43 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

false. we see in WaT non Lightweaver Unoathed Plate adjust substantially to support Adolin's leg, as well as Kaladin's plate change shape to fit and protect some people in the Tower, including a child. it can change a significant amount.

It's still not capable of changing the general shape of the armor, such as giving a Radiant wings. Maybe a Lightweaver could make the helmet pointy, but that still won't be anywhere near enough.

47 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

true, but I can tell you about plenty of people that have firearms. I can tell you of none that have nukes. the point was that they would have the technology commonly available to the citizenry in their books/timeframe.

In most places guns are not commonly available, legally at least. It's only really in America where guns are wildly available, in a place like China, India, or most of Europe, your average civilian does not own a gun. 

50 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

we've been assuming an "inside an arena" style fight, so they're not going to be 100 miles away. although you're right about tracking being an issue. 

In this particular case we're discussing fighter get vs Windrunner, which would be ridiculous to hold in an arena, unless if the arena is absurdly large.

52 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

because those will be the trained army/air force members, not the common citizenry, which is what we're looking for here, at least by my understanding.

The original Hazekillers were elite special soldiers trained and equipped to fight Mistborn, the use of the term "Hazekiller" therefore implies that combatants will be well trained and specially equipped to fight invested beings.

55 minutes ago, Immortal Platypus said:

Requiring a lot of Stormlight is not good, but also to be expected when giving the other guy a fighter jet. this isn't canon and is pure speculation, but I feel like there's a chance that the Wind or windspren could do some funky stuff with the air. This is partially based on the scene where we see Syl kind of parting the highstorm where Kal is strung up.

The only possible way to get anywhere near enough stormlight to actually stand a chance against a fighter jet, would be to be directly powered by Honor, like the Heralds during the desolations. Otherwise, at a certain point carrying all weight of the needed gemstones would have diminishing returns, as seen with rockets or aircraft.

[DoctaDajman]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

That is true, and I'm still going back and forth on how much I think duralumin adds. My only two data points are Vin attacking Cett's fortress, which was close to 200 but she was also able to fight them in smaller groups.

And Not-Wax but he wasn't a full mistborn, and he was closer to 50-80, but he didn't even fight them directly much.

 

I'm leaning at closer to around 100, but I'm still too hesitant on that one to make a call.

I mean I don't consider Atium to be a part of the standard toolkit for Mistborn, and think of it more like Raysium weapons for Fused, but yeah it changes a lot.

Well he did kill at the very least two other mistborn and an Inquisitor. I think his experience is more than enough.

He did a pretty good approximation with the ingot that he had, and the Hazekillers took that in stride.

Forgive me if this has been stated further down (I dont have the time to finish the thread). 

My biggest apprehension to using any hazekiller scenes as a basis for this measurement (which I think is a worthy goal), is that they are designed to be as anti mistborn as possible. They carry and wear absolutely no metal. They carry shields designed specifically to block coin attacks and study tactics to fight against mistborn. 

The difference between Kelsiers fight and Vins is in part Vins control over that belt buckle. And I would argue that Kelsier would have been even more deadly with that simple weapon than she was. 

Also, mistborn from the books were not trained to be soldiers or warriors and when we see Vin act as one we end up with her dancing above enemy lines crushing and cleaving everything beneath her. 

The measuring device is a great goal but I think mistborn is way under estimated here. 

The hazekiller setup for a mistborn would be the equivalent to giving a squad of soldiers aluminum coated armor and aluminum chains (to negate the shardblades offensive power the same way hazekillers are equipped to face mistborn). And then train them to tangel and immobilize the shardbearer for a kill. A sound tactic that a hazekiller-esq leader would surely develope against shard bearers. 

Note that a lot of hazekiller groups would employ a Lurcher just to disarm coin pouches designed to break away and yoink metal vials away. 

The hazekiller is specifically designed and trained to fight and destroy mistborn and built to be a threat through countering a very hard magic system that was built with the idea of these counters working soundly. It is super fun to read about. 

 

I am curious how you would build a group of hazekillers that are specifically designed to fight against all of the other magics out there?  

 

[Immortal Platypus]

47 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

It's still not capable of changing the general shape of the armor, such as giving a Radiant wings. Maybe a Lightweaver could make the helmet pointy, but that still won't be anywhere near enough.

we don't have a persepective for how much Adolin's changed the outside shape, but you might be right. Is there a WOB about Lightweavers changing their armor specifically I'm not aware of?

Quote

In most places guns are not commonly available, legally at least. It's only really in America where guns are wildly available, in a place like China, India, or most of Europe, your average civilian does not own a gun. 

true. but in era 2 scadrial, guns do seem to be readily available, more similarly to the US than anywhere else. I struggle to believe that era 3 scadrial will have readily available nukes or fighter jets.

Quote

In this particular case we're discussing fighter get vs Windrunner, which would be ridiculous to hold in an arena, unless if the arena is absurdly large.

yes, my point was it's not going to be as far as you're making it out to be. It would be relatively close. Either way, the hazekillers wouldn't be armed with a fighter jet so it doesn't particularly matter.

Quote

The original Hazekillers were elite special soldiers trained and equipped to fight Mistborn, the use of the term "Hazekiller" therefore implies that combatants will be well trained and specially equipped to fight invested beings.

that is what it implies, but the OP implies something else. it seemed more like traditional infantry than traditional hazekillers. even if it is actual hazekillers, a giving them specialized, reasonable (readily available to citizenry) equipment like @NerdyAarakocra mentioned makes more sense than giving them the most powerful weapons and armor from their respective planet/time.

Quote

The only possible way to get anywhere near enough stormlight to actually stand a chance against a fighter jet, would be to be directly powered by Honor, like the Heralds during the desolations. Otherwise, at a certain point carrying all weight of the needed gemstones would have diminishing returns, as seen with rockets or aircraft.

I think a perpendicularity would work, not to mention 5th ideal holding a ton of Stormlight on their own, much more than any of the others, but the fighter jet isn't terribly important anyway. 

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

I don't think that shardplate can be lashed given how invested it is.

If it can't be Kaladin wouldn't be able to fly with it. It would require a 10x upward lashing on himself just to float, but in RoW he's casually flying through Urithiru with it, despite the suppression still being up.

And since it's attuned to his Identity it should work

Spoiler

Argent

We know that you can't Lash people in Shardplate, but can you Lash the person inside the Plate? If they had their helm off, for example. At that point Plate should be just dead weight, right? 

Brandon Sanderson

There's a bit of an interference envelope. Wearing plate, the person has this big ball of investiture around them, and so pushing any through it--even by touching a person without a helm--is going to be tough. Easier than with the helm on though, I suppose.

Investiture acts (roughly) like a saturated solution in these cases. Sticking more power into something like a Feruchemical storage or a hyper-invested object like Plate is increasingly hard. The other part is that Investiture tends to interfere with other Investiture, unless there's a familiar resonance. (This is part of what philosophers call Identity.) Slapping your hand through a sand master's stream of sand will cause interference, and make them start to drop. It's not that the sand is supporting them, it's that the investiture holding them up gets scrambled for a moment because of your own investiture.

Investiture pushed toward someone inside a hyper-invested (supersaturated) system like a person in Shardplate is going to get hard push-back.

This is similar to the reason that it's harder to Push on invested coins. Depends on how invested they are, in that case. It's generally not as hard as doing something like Lashing a person in plate. (This is more about the interference than the saturation of investiture.) But the two principles are what I use to guide the physics in these areas.

quietandproud

Can we take that as a hint that the Investiture in the Plates and the Investiture that the Surge of [Adhesion] uses come from different Shards? Or do they interfere because they "belong" to different spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You know, I should have realized this one would bring out the follow up questions. Let's leave it at what I posted for now. This is a deep, deep rabbit hole, and I do need to try to get some more writing done tonight. So...RAFO. (Sorry.)

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Nov. 2, 2016)

Additionally the Dustbringer in the Thunderclast vision uses Abrasion on the outside of her plate.

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Only to a very limited extent, and only for Lightweavers. 

On the contrary

SotD 2/I think this became IotED

Spoiler

The Skybreaker clearly has his armor shape heavily modified, including hoses and everything.

 

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

We have seen absolutely no indication the windrunners are capable at traveling at over mach 1 for any extend period of time, which would make them far inferior even to 4th generation fighters.

Counter

Spoiler

Questioner

What exactly does the Fifth Oath do for Radiant abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Though, one of the things you should expect is the amount of Stormlight needed, as the bond attunes, becomes less and less to perform certain acts. And that allows you to accomplish things, by itself, that are pretty cool.

A little teaser: I think Kaladin could reach the moons. They're pretty close orbit, but he could reach the moons by now just with Stormlight he can carry pretty easily. 

We don't have Stormlight anymore, that is correct. If he had Stormlight, he could. Unfortunately, there is no Stormlight. 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

Moons are several thousands of KM away, he needs to be moving at supersonic to hypersonic speeds to make that.

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

 In most places civilians don't have access to firearms; does that mean that hazekillers can't have guns? The point is that one's weaponry makes a huge impact on one's fighting prowess.

The only places in the Cosmere with access to guns have pretty easy access to guns for everyone.

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

A PL-15 is beyond visual range, so a J-10 would just attack the Windrunner from 100 miles away, whilst the radiant would have no way of tracking it, even if they were capable at flying faster than mach 1.

Spren have the ability to find things far away, they could easily track it down. And as I've said before you can beat anyone by simply teleporting behind them and shooting them, or shooting them from so far out of range they can't hit you as the case may be.

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Why wouldn't they have access to it? If Roshar invades era 3 Scadrial, you can bet that the Skybreakers will be facing "Hazekillers" with fighter jets.

Yes but then the Skybreaker gets to bring their own fighter jet and so on and so forth and we just end up with a full on war discussion. Which if you want to start a thread for I'm down, but this is not the thread for that.

3 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

In the books they have never traveled faster than ~200 mph. But even if they could travel at hypersonic speeds, they would still lack the maneuverability of a fighter jet, due to aerodynamics. And again, traveling at such a speed would take a ridiculous number of lashes, and thus Stormlight, due to air resistance. 

They can immediately make 90+ degree turns in any direction, up, down, left, right, anything. Their turn radius is the size of their body. That's insane, beyond anything a fighter jet could replicate.

See above on speeds.

2 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I mean, the obvious problem with this system is that it ignores all subtlety (but we knew that already), and thus can never be anything more than a piece of evidence in any argument.

However, it still does something incredibly useful, which is provide a useful metric for quantifying powerscaling. This is the most reasonable way of generically comparing power levels in sci-fi/fantasy, and it works regardless of the situation. This is... really useful! I personally think that it should be adopted as a universal measure in powerscaling debates.

OP upvoted.

Hey Nerdy I've missed you.

Why thank you I had hoped as much.

2 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

EDIT: I have a few thoughts on how to reduce ambiguity in the system:
Hazekillers in Mistborn are specially trained assassins who have good (but not unobtainable) equipment. As such, let the Hazekiller Coefficient be defined as "The number of specially trained regular (nonmagical) people from the relevant setting it would take to defeat the relevant character using the best reasonably available equipment."

I was thinking along those lines, probably should have been more specific.

2 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

In most places guns are not commonly available, legally at least. It's only really in America where guns are wildly available, in a place like China, India, or most of Europe, your average civilian does not own a gun. 

Good thing we aren't talking about any of those places.

1 hour ago, DoctaDajman said:

Forgive me if this has been stated further down (I dont have the time to finish the thread). 

My biggest apprehension to using any hazekiller scenes as a basis for this measurement (which I think is a worthy goal), is that they are designed to be as anti mistborn as possible. They carry and wear absolutely no metal. They carry shields designed specifically to block coin attacks and study tactics to fight against mistborn. 

The difference between Kelsiers fight and Vins is in part Vins control over that belt buckle. And I would argue that Kelsier would have been even more deadly with that simple weapon than she was. 

Also, mistborn from the books were not trained to be soldiers or warriors and when we see Vin act as one we end up with her dancing above enemy lines crushing and cleaving everything beneath her. 

The measuring device is a great goal but I think mistborn is way under estimated here. 

The hazekiller setup for a mistborn would be the equivalent to giving a squad of soldiers aluminum coated armor and aluminum chains (to negate the shardblades offensive power the same way hazekillers are equipped to face mistborn). And then train them to tangel and immobilize the shardbearer for a kill. A sound tactic that a hazekiller-esq leader would surely develope against shard bearers. 

Note that a lot of hazekiller groups would employ a Lurcher just to disarm coin pouches designed to break away and yoink metal vials away. 

The hazekiller is specifically designed and trained to fight and destroy mistborn and built to be a threat through countering a very hard magic system that was built with the idea of these counters working soundly. It is super fun to read about. 

 

I am curious how you would build a group of hazekillers that are specifically designed to fight against all of the other magics out there?  

 

That's a pretty interesting question:

Spoiler

Elantrians: There's not a lot you can do. Maybe aluminum arrows and hope that works?

Awakeners: Aluminum weapons, gray/white clothes, maybe chalk bags or something to cover everything nearby in whiteness so they can't use color.

Shardbearers: We saw a lot of these guys in the books, just switch the chains to aluminum, and maybe add some paint to throw on top of the helmet or something.

Radiants: See Shardbearers, add anti-stormlight instruments

Sandmasters+Aetherbound: Silver stuff.

[therunner he/him]

2 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

It's still not capable of changing the general shape of the armor, such as giving a Radiant wings. Maybe a Lightweaver could make the helmet pointy, but that still won't be anywhere near enough.

There is not reason for Windrunner plate to need wings. 

Jets use wings because that is how they generate lift, Windrunnes just use Surges, so wings are completely pointless.

So for increasing aerodynamics of the plate you need relatively minor modification of the outside shape, and as seem from Adolin's Unoathed Plate, living Plate can do much more than that.

[Schizoposting]

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

If it can't be Kaladin wouldn't be able to fly with it. It would require a 10x upward lashing on himself just to float, but in RoW he's casually flying through Urithiru with it, despite the suppression still being up.

And since it's attuned to his Identity it should work

True, but if shardplate substantially increased your terminal velocity, then you'd expect Kaladin to always wear his plate when flying, yet aside from that one scene in ROW he literarily never does. So, either he's just stupid, or shardplate does not actually improve your terminal velocity. 

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

On the contrary

SotD 2/I think this became IotED

It's still not enough to give one wings.

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Counter

Moons are several thousands of KM away, he needs to be moving at supersonic to hypersonic speeds to make that.

The moons are in space, where there's no air resistance. 

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

The only places in the Cosmere with access to guns have pretty easy access to guns for everyone.

Ok, let's look at a place like the Final Empire instead; the Skaa have absolutely no access to weaponry of any kind, does that mean that Mistborn from era 1 should only fight unarmed civilians? 

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Spren have the ability to find things far away, they could easily track it down. And as I've said before you can beat anyone by simply teleporting behind them and shooting them, or shooting them from so far out of range they can't hit you as the case may be.

Can they find a small object dozens or hundreds of miles away that's traveling faster than the speed of sound?

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

They can immediately make 90+ degree turns in any direction, up, down, left, right, anything. Their turn radius is the size of their body. That's insane, beyond anything a fighter jet could replicate.

See above on speeds.

No, they can't—making a 90-degree turn requires cancelling all of your forward momentum, which becomes proportionally more difficult the faster you travel. Maybe they can pull it off at low speeds, but at Mach 1? Trying such a maneuver would probably kill them (since Windrunners are affected by g forces).

10 hours ago, Frustration said:

Good thing we aren't talking about any of those places.

Yes, we're talking about places like the Final Empire, where your average person would be executed on the spot if caught with a weapon.

10 hours ago, therunner said:

There is not reason for Windrunner plate to need wings. 

Jets use wings because that is how they generate lift, Windrunnes just use Surges, so wings are completely pointless.

So for increasing aerodynamics of the plate you need relatively minor modification of the outside shape, and as seem from Adolin's Unoathed Plate, living Plate can do much more than that.

I am talking about wings for turning/maneuvering, not for lift.

[Immortal Platypus]

55 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Ok, let's look at a place like the Final Empire instead; the Skaa have absolutely no access to weaponry of any kind, does that mean that Mistborn from era 1 should only fight unarmed civilians? 

but the skaa are treated as second class citizens, not the citizenry. the "citizenry" would be the nobles, who have access to all the weapons hazekillers use. in addition, the gangs and crews in the city have access to weaponry IIRC, which dramatically increases how many skaa have access to weaponry.

56 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

Yes, we're talking about places like the Final Empire, where your average person would be executed on the spot if caught with a weapon.

not about guns, those come from era 2 and are very common.

[Trusk'our he/him]

On 1/9/2026 at 4:04 PM, Frustration said:

I haven't read the omnibus but I don't remember armor in the GN.

Yeah, I had to really dig for it. It doesn't show up in the Coppermind if you search for White Sand or Sandmastery, but it is in Khrissalla's journal.

Now, admittedly (and I'd forgotten this, sorry), it looks like this is actually just her musings on what a Sand Master could hypothetically do, not that it's something that has happened or could happen. So it's not guaranteed. 

I still think it's possible, but take it with pinch of copper.

Spoiler

 

On 1/9/2026 at 4:04 PM, Frustration said:

If you can get a lot of breath I'd assume you also have the money for some bodies

True. You'd have to choose to permanently lose much of your Breath though, so I feel like your standard Awakener is going to be hesitant.

That's not to say that they couldn't do it, but having a true army of Lifeless seems unlikely to me. Most Awakeners are just wealthy merchants who presumably want to keep expanding and preserving that wealth on top of living their life.

Get someone who's militant, and you're going to be facing a whole different beast.

On 1/9/2026 at 4:04 PM, Frustration said:

That's true but you can also pre-prepare Aons so I imagine they have shields inscribed on their clothes and AonDaa on a weapon of some kind

Fair point. I don't feel like most Elantrians are going to bother with this, because like with Awakeners most Elantrians aren't soldiers, mercenaries, or fighters. They're just relatively normal people.

Go up against a prepared Elantrian with combat experience and your chance of winning a fair fight is extremely slim. Not impossible, especially since aluminum is a thing, but it would be very, very hard without using Kelsier-esc tactics.

 

I do feel like this is something often glossed over when there are vs threads or the like, where we never really consider what kind of culture has been built into the magic. Awakeners have been historically used in battle, such as to throw boulders, but for most of the time they're just wealthy people chilling out.

Elantrians, at least the modern ones as of Elantris, are literally random people chosen from the populace (okay, there's probably some kind of determining factor, such as one's devotion to a given thing, but it's still choosing from a huge roster of people, few of which have a disposition towards combat).

Even Radiants will often not have true combat experience, disposition, or training. Lift is a street urchin, Shallan was a Lighteyed child, Jasnah was a highprincess, that one guy Nale murdered was a cobbler, and Venli was straight up a coward. There are many Radiant fighters, especially amongst some groups like the Windrunners and Skybreakers, but it isn't accurate to say that all do.

Compare this to a Mistborn who will virtually always have training in assassination and self-defense on top of their noble upbringing (unless they're literally a one in a million half-Skaa Mistborn and have no idea what powers they possess- and even then, of the ones we've seen they drift in that direction eventually). Not a true soldier mentality, but they will know how to kill with brutal efficiency.

 

I know this isn't as exciting, and we should probably ignore it for the sake of most of these conversations since we're often taking about their peak potential for carnage, but I do feel like it's worth addressing and then putting aside. At least, that's my two clips.

Edited January 11 by Trusk'our
Abysmal spelling

[NameIess]

On 1/9/2026 at 5:06 PM, Frustration said:

So I've thought about this one off and on for years. The basic idea is to take the number of uninvested individuals that it would take to defeat any particular manifestation of the invested arts and use it as a basis for a comparison of various cosmere combat capabilities.

 

Now a disclaimer: I recognize that this is not a perfect system, but I still think it would be beneficial to take a look at.

  Reveal hidden contents

Elantrian: Given the overwhelming force displayed by elantrians I have to place this number somewhere in the low thousands, they simply have far too much power that cannot be countered without magic.

Mistborn: Eight hazekillers almost beat Kelsier who was one of the strongest Mistborn alive, now he was intentionally holding back but I'd say it's not much of a stretch to say that 10 is a good number.

Feruchemist: This one is actually very easy, just take the amount of storage and boom you get the number of hazekillers

Sandmasters: Kenten repeatedly struggled with between 4-5 opponents

Awakeners: This one is actually pretty hard as the number of breaths changes the effectiveness as does their preparation. Bare minimum assuming they can make lifeless the number of hazekillers equals the number of breaths.

Shardbearers: Most battles in the books show shardbearers with support but Helaran shows us what they can do unsupported. Easily close to 2-3 hundred.

Twinborn: too much variability to say.

Forgers: Shai using stamps could beat 6 skeletals with a lot of preparation

Radiants: by oath level

1. Probably 5-6
2. Easily dozens
3. See Szeth easily over 300, I'll say close to 400
4. Easily low thousands
5. Too little information

Aetherbound: Probably close to the same for Sandmasters 4-5

I'd take a passing look and say that this is probably pretty close but I recognize I probably missed quite a bit in here and I'm more than open for your thoughts

I'm a fan of this being a discussion of how many average uninvested troops trained to counter the specific kind of invested troop it takes to bring them down, which, especially when talking about a Mistborn, leads to a very large difference. The average era 1 Mistborn could take hundreds of metal-armed troops comfortably in most conditions. However, depending on the situation I'd say one or two dozen hazekillers should be able to kill them.

For Shardbearers, this imo will drop the number Frustration gave quite substantially. Shardbearers alone, without support are rather vulnerable to becoming surrounded. Especially taking into account that the most impressive feats we have for solo Shardbearers come from some of the most skilled Shardbearers on Roshar, (Dalinar and Adolin), or from Shardbearers fighting poorly-trained soldiers with absolutely no experience or training against Shards (Helaran). I would think that a team of 80-100 soldiers, trained against Shardbearers, armed with hammers, ropes and nets, could defeat most Shardbearers. With Half-shards and possible aluminum weapons (or aluminum-coated chains, perhaps?), that number drops further, maybe as low as 40-50.

For Radiants, this is a harder question. This is because, unlike Mistborn, when considering oaths we can't just assume the Radiant is reasonably skilled with their powers. Kaladin swore the second Oath while barely understanding his powers. Replace him at the end of tWoK with an average soldier and you'd have a regular dude with healing and arrow-blocking powers. So if we're assuming first oath Radiants to have little to no practice with or control over their surges, basically just Stormlight healing, then I'd say Frustration's estimate is accurate. Second oath is correct for some orders, such as Windrunners and Stonewards if we're assuming they have similar mastery of their powers as squires we see in Stormlight, though some orders like Willshapers, Truthwatchers, and Lightweavers are probably not going to kill dozens of well-trained soldiers, especially considering their average members are not combat-focused. For Third Oath, one or two hundred is probably a reasonably estimate, though some orders would probably do the same or worse than a full Shardbearer. Fourth Oath, I think there's one important consideration that's not been discussed too much: Radiant Plate is not powered by Stormlight. It is powered by a direct connection to the Spiritual realm, implication being that a Radiant can't just heal it using their Stormlight. Still, the more combat focused orders would be able to take hundreds or even thousands of troops, with enough Stormlight. Fifth ideal would probably reach comfortably into the thousands range, although the less combat focused orders might remain down at hundreds, since they're not significantly more dangerous than ordinary Shardbearers. Aluminum-coated weapons and half-shards would likely lower the estimates for the later ideals, although I will assume that Raysium draining devices are off the table. Really, we should do an order-by-order estimate, although most orders we have too little information to be accurate.

[therunner he/him]

6 hours ago, NameIess said:

For Radiants, this is a harder question. This is because, unlike Mistborn, when considering oaths we can't just assume the Radiant is reasonably skilled with their powers. Kaladin swore the second Oath while barely understanding his powers. Replace him at the end of tWoK with an average soldier and you'd have a regular dude with healing and arrow-blocking powersStill, the more combat focused orders would be able to take hundreds or even thousands of troops, with enough Stormlight. 

I don't think this is accurate. 
It would be like saying Mistborn won't have experience with their powers, because the first Nobles who got Lerasium from Rashek didn't. 

Current protagonist crop of Radiants are first in millennia, so they have to rediscover everything by hand. 
But as we can see by those that follow them, they progress much faster, because they have someone to teach them.

I.e. most Windrunners of 1st and 2nd Oath will be about as skilled with their powers as squires are in RoW and WaT, so much more than Kaladin in TWoK.

Additionally, spren now have easier time crossing from CR into PR (as seen from Notum in WAT), so they would be much better at teaching their Radiant about what is happening, than spren in earlier books.

Quote

.Fourth Oath, I think there's one important consideration that's not been discussed too much: Radiant Plate is not powered by Stormlight. It is powered by a direct connection to the Spiritual realm, implication being that a Radiant can't just heal it using their Stormlight.

This is incorrect. 

For regular functioning the living plate is powered from SR, but for healing it can draw upon Radiants Stormlight to speed up the process. This is seen in Jasnah's battle scenes in RoW, where at first she is explicitly stopping the Plate from healing faster, so that the Fused don't realize she is KR and not just Shardbearer.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, therunner said:

I don't think this is accurate. 
It would be like saying Mistborn won't have experience with their powers, because the first Nobles who got Lerasium from Rashek didn't. 

Current protagonist crop of Radiants are first in millennia, so they have to rediscover everything by hand. 
But as we can see by those that follow them, they progress much faster, because they have someone to teach them.

I.e. most Windrunners of 1st and 2nd Oath will be about as skilled with their powers as squires are in RoW and WaT, so much more than Kaladin in TWoK.

Additionally, spren now have easier time crossing from CR into PR (as seen from Notum in WAT), so they would be much better at teaching their Radiant about what is happening, than spren in earlier books.

I did not intend to imply that we should assume that all Radiants of the early ideals have barely any experience, I was merely making the point that Oath level does not equal experience level. A first ideal Radiant could describe someone incapable of even consciously drawing upon Stormlight, or it could describe a fairly experienced Radiant who just hasn’t figured out the next oath yet. Oaths make a Radiant better at handling Stormlight and more powerful applications of their surges, but there is no 1:1 correlation to skill. Hence why I said later in my post that assuming a first ideal Radiant is basically just an average soldier/prospective member of an order with Stormlight, then an estimate of 5-6 ‘hazekillers’ (Stormkillers?) could be accurate. Although now I think about it, maybe 3 or 4 would do. Depends on the order. I was just trying to roughly map skill level to oath level, since for the first two oaths especially, skill with their powers matters more than oaths.

1 hour ago, therunner said:

This is incorrect. 

For regular functioning the living plate is powered from SR, but for healing it can draw upon Radiants Stormlight to speed up the process. This is seen in Jasnah's battle scenes in RoW, where at first she is explicitly stopping the Plate from healing faster, so that the Fused don't realize she is KR and not just Shardbearer.

You are correct, thanks for pointing that out. My memory is a bit rusty.

Edited January 12 by NameIess

[Frustration]

On 1/11/2026 at 9:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

True, but if shardplate substantially increased your terminal velocity, then you'd expect Kaladin to always wear his plate when flying, yet aside from that one scene in ROW he literarily never does. So, either he's just stupid, or shardplate does not actually improve your terminal velocity. 

Well in WaT he rarely flies and when he does he's with Szeth who does not have plate and they're trying to stay together.

On 1/11/2026 at 9:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

It's still not enough to give one wings.

On 1/11/2026 at 9:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

I am talking about wings for turning/maneuvering, not for lift.

They can manipulate air pressure, they don't need wings

On 1/11/2026 at 9:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

Ok, let's look at a place like the Final Empire instead; the Skaa have absolutely no access to weaponry of any kind, does that mean that Mistborn from era 1 should only fight unarmed civilians? 

1. The Final Empire is the perfect example of this, skaa are not hazekillers. The same role that hazekillers fill in the Final empire would be the same role that these hypothetical fighters would in any army.

2. Skaa made up a decent part of the army

On 1/11/2026 at 9:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

Can they find a small object dozens or hundreds of miles away that's traveling faster than the speed of sound?

Well I'd say moving faster than sound and making a sonic boom would be easier for spren of wind to find.

And Syl could easily find Milkweed in WoK, and that's just one spren, not the thousands that make up the armor.

On 1/11/2026 at 9:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

No, they can't—making a 90-degree turn requires cancelling all of your forward momentum, which becomes proportionally more difficult the faster you travel. Maybe they can pull it off at low speeds, but at Mach 1? Trying such a maneuver would probably kill them (since Windrunners are affected by g forces).

Well they really shouldn't be affected by g-forces just on the physics of it, but Brandon has mildly implied that their perception can cause them to have such effects.

 But regardless, between air pressure manipulation and lashings, yes they can preform such turns.

On 1/11/2026 at 11:32 AM, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, I had to really dig for it. It doesn't show up in the Coppermind if you search for White Sand or Sandmastery, but it is in Khrissalla's journal.

Now, admittedly (and I'd forgotten this, sorry), it looks like this is actually just her musings on what a Sand Master could hypothetically do, not that it's something that has happened or could happen. So it's not guaranteed. 

I still think it's possible, but take it with pinch of copper.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Huh, cool. I'll have to get my hands on that.

No clue in that case, probably even more like aetherbound then. What do you think would be a good number?

On 1/11/2026 at 11:32 AM, Trusk'our said:

Fair point. I don't feel like most Elantrians are going to bother with this, because like with Awakeners most Elantrians aren't soldiers, mercenaries, or fighters. They're just relatively normal people.

Go up against a prepared Elantrian with combat experience and your chance of winning a fair fight is extremely slim. Not impossible, especially since aluminum is a thing, but it would be very, very hard without using Kelsier-esc tactics.

I was imagining  them to have at least some combat experience, but even for non-combat focused elantrians I'd imagine they have some form of shielding if for nothing else than to prevent accidents.

22 hours ago, NameIess said:

For Shardbearers, this imo will drop the number Frustration gave quite substantially. Shardbearers alone, without support are rather vulnerable to becoming surrounded. Especially taking into account that the most impressive feats we have for solo Shardbearers come from some of the most skilled Shardbearers on Roshar, (Dalinar and Adolin), or from Shardbearers fighting poorly-trained soldiers with absolutely no experience or training against Shards (Helaran). I would think that a team of 80-100 soldiers, trained against Shardbearers, armed with hammers, ropes and nets, could defeat most Shardbearers. With Half-shards and possible aluminum weapons (or aluminum-coated chains, perhaps?), that number drops further, maybe as low as 40-50.

That is a good point, I might over rely on Adolin and Dalinar. I'd say if they have horses, or the ability to bind the chains down that could be rather effective, but I honestly think that the strength of shardplate would make getting pinned down really difficult.

 

As for Orders, I honestly can't think of a single order that I can consider to be of any lesser threat than the others. Bondsmiths of course being greater than the others.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Huh, cool. I'll have to get my hands on that.

No clue in that case, probably even more like aetherbound then. What do you think would be a good number?

Talking about their higher-end combat potential, accounting for non-Terken Hazkillers who can have swords, shields, and bows, probably pretty decent.

Not only could a Lord Mastrel with 15-20 ribbons shield themselves with bulk sand deposits, they could whip out an incredibly fast, flexible, and razor edged ribbon or twelve to slice through armor and bodies. Even a Sandling comparable to Chasmfiends died with almost pathetic ease to Kenton. So, offense is very high in conjunction with the potential for very good defense.

If there's Terken or aluminum (and assuming aluminum has similar properties as Terken for countering Sand Mastery- though personally I think it would be a bit weaker), then they're a lot weaker, unless they get creative. A Sandmaster warrior could use metal plates on top of their sand to block Terken projectiles and surrounding debris, buildings, or carried weapons to plow through enemy defenses (much like Kenton did).

 

I don't know that there's a great way to truly calculate the number of Hazekillers needed, but if I were to hire some to kill the master of the Diem I'd grab at least two dozen, equip them with Terken liquids coating all their weapons, clothes, and smeared on their skin before directing them to attack from multiple angles to try and pierce any defenses with a veritable cloud of projectiles. Maybe if they used thin nets soaked in Terken juices they could throw or launch it at the Mastrel, which could negate any ribbons before they formed properly- that tactic, if successful, would require only two to four to kill in my book.

If you can spray a kind of Terken mist at the Sandmaster with a high-pressure device one could probably get the job done. Really depends on the technology, coordination, and specific setting and individual we're trying to murder.

[DoctaDajman]

On 1/11/2026 at 11:32 AM, Trusk'our said:

Compare this to a Mistborn who will virtually always have training in assassination and self-defense on top of their noble upbringing (unless they're literally a one in a million half-Skaa Mistborn and have no idea what powers they possess- and even then, of the ones we've seen they drift in that direction eventually). Not a true soldier mentality, but they will know how to kill with brutal efficiency.

This is a bit of a bummer too. Assassination and self defense is still a far cry from warrior. Vin in the fights against koloss armies shows us that the mistborn on a battle field where metal exists can be terrifyingly effective. 

Sadly, by the time we see the next mistborn on paper everyone will have access to aluminum bullets and guns that will offer direct counters.  

I just think mistborn is such a hard magic system and has such a glaring weakness with aluminum or a lack of metal being around that anyone can create the scenario where they cant thrive. 

Although a mistborn could potentially just burn the aluminum bullet the second it breaks skin since aluminum burns instantly. 

And if they use an auto feeding, spring assisted, metal loading device to constantly replenish their metal reserves then burning an aluminum bullet wouldnt necessarily leave them drained of metals either. Not to mention the potential of multiple duralumin uses before a spool of metal empties either. 

Not that anyone should count that as a normal Mistborn. Just something I think would make a lot of sense to create a terrifying opponent in a mistborn. Keep them spooky!  

[Qianweilian He/him]

4 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

Sadly, by the time we see the next mistborn on paper everyone will have access to aluminum bullets and guns that will offer direct counters.

We might not see Mistborn on paper again.

Quote

Questioner

Now that there are no mistborn in the Mistborn series and there's no stormlight in the Stormlight series, should we expect the city of Elantris to be destroyed next?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a good question. You can get a RAFO. You shouldn't expect... I didn't imagine this was the theme.

Are there still mistborn? The truth is, there are some Mistborn, because I think Marsh still counts. He's a hemalurgic mistborn. Marsh still counts. Other than that, I guess if you don't count hemalurgically made Mistborn, there aren't any. It's still possible, as someone has said; it's very, very difficult, and there aren't any right now, but it's possible.

Oh, you're right, Wax is a mistborn, you're right. So there you go. Wax is a mistborn, Hoid is a mistborn. They both had lerasium beads. As long as Hoid is there and Wax is still around, you still have mistborn. And Wax kind of knows, but he doesn't tell anybody.

*sarcastically* Oh, yes, I forgot about the Ghostblood Kelsier, who's totally a mistborn. Totally hasn't lost all his powers.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

Marsh, Wax, Hoid, and (kinda) Kelsier are the only mistborn left.

[KnightSkye Reforged They/Them]

On 1/9/2026 at 5:06 PM, Frustration said:

Radiants: by oath level

1. Probably 5-6
2. Easily dozens
3. See Szeth easily over 300, I'll say close to 400
4. Easily low thousands
5. Too little information

I was wondering, what are we counting as a Rosharin Hazekiller? What counts as "non invested"? Does it mean using nothing that has inveatiture, such as invested equipment, or does it mean having no access to invested arts? Could a rosharin Hazekiller use fabrials and dead shards, or not?

Edited January 13 by KnightSkye Reforged

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, KnightSkye Reforged said:

I was wondering, what are we counting as a Rosharin Hazekiller? What counts as "non invested"? Does it mean using nothing that has investiture, or does it mean having no access to invested arts? 

Do you want to know? Once you learn the forbidden knowledge it cannot be undone.

You're sure?

Okay.

Spoiler

Vibes. I use the power of vibes.

I would say using things like fabrials are technology, and hazekillers could use them, but things like southern medallions could not.

Others might argue all on one side or the other, but I just call it on vibes.

 

Edited January 13 by Frustration

[KnightSkye Reforged They/Them]

Just now, Frustration said:

Do you want to know? Once you learn the forbidden knowledge it cannot be undone.

You're sure?

Okay.

  Hide contents

Vibes. I use the power of vibes.

I would say using things like fabrials are technology, and hazekillers could use them, but things like southern medallions could not.

Others might argue all on one side or the other, but I just call it on vibes.

Hmmmm ok! So, fabrials would count as tech, but deadshards as investiture? And for Scadrial, Guns and aluminum and such would count as tech, but medallions, because they grant you invested arts, would not?

 

I really enjoy your idea of using hazekillers as a power scaling system btw. it's honestly one of the best I've come across, especially because it takes into account differences in setting and therefore relative power difference. 

[Frustration]

12 minutes ago, KnightSkye Reforged said:

Hmmmm ok! So, fabrials would count as tech, but deadshards as investiture? And for Scadrial, Guns and aluminum and such would count as tech, but medallions, because they grant you invested arts, would not?

Exactly, yes.

12 minutes ago, KnightSkye Reforged said:

I really enjoy your idea of using hazekillers as a power scaling system btw. it's honestly one of the best I've come across, especially because it takes into account differences in setting and therefore relative power difference. 

Why thank you.

[KnightSkye Reforged They/Them]

On 1/11/2026 at 11:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

True, but if shardplate substantially increased your terminal velocity, then you'd expect Kaladin to always wear his plate when flying, yet aside from that one scene in ROW he literarily never does. So, either he's just stupid, or shardplate does not actually improve your terminal velocity. 

I would like to point out that Kal has practically no practice with his plate, and seems to forget he even has it sometimes. And as Nale noted when they fought, he's better without it, because he has no practice. As someone who has trained in various martial arts, it takes a while to adjust your instincts to use something new. But i think that Living plate still has mass and weight. 

On 1/11/2026 at 11:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

The moons are in space, where there's no air resistance. 

Again, we haven't seen windrunners that are really experienced. We have seen that Kal can affect air pressure and movement, like he did when rescuing civilians from highstorm winds in RoW. Since Adhesion is the surge of pressure and vacuum, I believe that an experienced windrunner could make a bubble of vacuum around him and no longer need worry about air resistance.

On 1/11/2026 at 11:59 AM, Schizoposting said:

No, they can't—making a 90-degree turn requires cancelling all of your forward momentum, which becomes proportionally more difficult the faster you travel. Maybe they can pull it off at low speeds, but at Mach 1? Trying such a maneuver would probably kill them (since Windrunners are affected by g forces).

I do think that it would take a lot of stormlight to cancel the momentum if the direction they were travelling, and changed direction, but it is possible. And don't underestimate how much living plate could brace their body and help reduce the damage taken, even though I think they would take some damage.

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Exactly, yes.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying! 

[Qianweilian He/him]

1 hour ago, KnightSkye Reforged said:

Hmmmm ok! So, fabrials would count as tech, but deadshards as investiture? And for Scadrial, Guns and aluminum and such would count as tech, but medallions, because they grant you invested arts, would not?

I personally would count it as anything obtainable by the average person (ignoring money, connections, etc.) that doesn't invest said hazekiller (permanently), though of course it is a subjective metric. It's fine if you don't consider medallions, but they are actually technically fabrials (according to inworld arcanists).

Quote

gaberz24

In the Coppermind article for fabrials, under the trivia section it reads:

The term "fabrial" will eventually come to be used for all magic-based, mechanical devices in the cosmere, such as the mechanism that picks Elantrians.

Was there a mechanical device that controlled the Shaod?

Brandon Sanderson

Something's going on there, I'm not gonna dig too deeply into that. I'm gonna RAFO that. Continue your theorizing however you'd like. That is not where I expected that question to go.

Adam Horne

Do you wanna say where you were expecting it to go?

Brandon Sanderson

No, I mean... The medallions in Mistborn would be considered fabrials by most arcanists, once the era that they are aware of these things is all happening. That's an awkward way to say it. In future era cosmere, the scholars would point and say, "oh yeah, there were some early fabrials happening on Scadrial at that time." That's the terminology they would use.

Footnote: The Coppermind excerpt referenced in this question is based on a 2017 WoB
YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

[Duxredux he/him]

Correct me if I'm wrong, @Frustration, but the point was to try to find a relatively common term to discuss relative power level in the Cosmere - the Hazekiller coefficient and I want to go back to that rather than fighter jet edge cases. If everyone will indulge me for a few minutes, let's try to put this into hypothetical in-world context to see if the majority agrees about a few aspects to this coefficient and how or why it might be useful. Let's say that you are a Cosmere aware analyst with the Ghostbloods and you've been given the task to estimate relative strength of position between the various worlds and factions. The various Invested combantants make this harder, but spy reports (i.e. you read the books) let you know about their general abilities and numbers. You devise the "Hazekiller Coefficient" and crunch some numbers and need to explain to Kel what it does and doesn't calculate.

 In my opinion, defining the Hazekiller Coefficient based on the existing is clever because in a way it's describing the capability of the local normal population to suppress a given Invested art. A foreigner could come, look into the options available, and with a bit of research and procurement work be approximately as effective as the local Hazekillers - in addition to their own powerset. Look at Mraise acquiring and practicing with Anti-Light. If it came to war, hopefully this would let you generally calculate how many troops to field and supply on a foreign front. It also helps with calculation somewhat generally defines the "arena" that we're throwing regular people at these invested combatants - it's where we might expect the Invested user to operate.

From this standpoint, it seems reasonable to assign a couple coefficients to the same powerset depending on circumstance. For example, a Era 1 Rioter would have a higher coefficient than a Era 2 or 3 Rioter after aluminum becomes ubiquitous - or in otherwords when a foreigner is coming to make trouble in Scadrial, they'll have an easier time in later eras than earlier ones - which is kind of the point of these vs match ups. Making distinctions of this nature encourages people to consider the details a bit more. As for things like Malwish Medallions, Honorblades, or other equipment that grants Invested abilities, just give them their own coefficient assuming a normal user. That's the point of comparing these, right?

Notes about this design of the coefficient:

• The coefficient is not an apples to apples comparison. It's not supposed to be exactly, it's supposed to assume you are going to deal with someone on their turf / or who has resources or equipment from their home planet that you could conceivably acquire from them.
  • It also assumes that you have been decently prepared enough to know what you're dealing with and at least took a look at how the locals deal with the problem. 
• Don't lean too hard on adding coefficients together - because someone is going to look at this and mention Hemalurgy. It probably works to an extent, but this is definitely one of those times when the sum of the parts do not equal the whole.
• It is not rigorous. It's subjective. Probably don't get too hung up on the numbers and allow for a ballpark range. 
• Give it as much leeway as you might as an actual analyst or tactician. In the words of Wayne, "You can beat anybody, so long as you don't let them fight back properly." 

I will note that this changes the idea slightly from "how strong is this power" to "how difficult is it to take this power down with what should be expected to be on hand". It's less about dogpiles and cage matches and more about how the different planetary factions will think about bringing the war to the enemy.

Thoughts?