Surge Savants?

[Cade Strauss]

In the most recent batch of released WoB's from Dragonsteel 2025, someone asked this question:

"Questioner

We’ve seen savantism applied to allomancers and soulcasters. I was wondering if we can maybe see that in the future with surgebinders, or if that’s being prevented by the Nahel bond.

Brandon

It is possible, but there are guiderails in place, like you’re saying, to prevent it from going too far. So, while it’s possible, you’re unlikely to see it, but that comes with the asterisk of ‘it depends on if I decide the story needs it,” so I can go back on that. I’m gonna say unlikely, right now."

Dragonsteel Nexus 2025 (Dec. 5, 2025)

I get that the Nahel bond stops surge savantism because of rational limitations...but what about Heralds? The Heralds were exposed to nearly constant surge use for thousands of years, not to mention the unbound abilities they'd have after Honor splintered. Wouldn't they have extremely savantic abilities with the surges? If Spook became a savant after nonstop burning tin for a couple years, what could a thousand do?

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

3 hours ago, Cade Strauss said:

In the most recent batch of released WoB's from Dragonsteel 2025, someone asked this question:

"Questioner

We’ve seen savantism applied to allomancers and soulcasters. I was wondering if we can maybe see that in the future with surgebinders, or if that’s being prevented by the Nahel bond.

Brandon

It is possible, but there are guiderails in place, like you’re saying, to prevent it from going too far. So, while it’s possible, you’re unlikely to see it, but that comes with the asterisk of ‘it depends on if I decide the story needs it,” so I can go back on that. I’m gonna say unlikely, right now."

Dragonsteel Nexus 2025 (Dec. 5, 2025)

I get that the Nahel bond stops surge savantism because of rational limitations...but what about Heralds? The Heralds were exposed to nearly constant surge use for thousands of years, not to mention the unbound abilities they'd have after Honor splintered. Wouldn't they have extremely savantic abilities with the surges? If Spook became a savant after nonstop burning tin for a couple years, what could a thousand do?

Quote

A crash broke the silence, windows cracking, air rushing to fill the hole Taln left when he moved.

[First of the Tide He/him]

It's hard to tell. both Ishar and Taln have very unique, powerful uses of their surges, but it might be just how skilled they are with them, as opposed to true savantism, where one becomes dependent on it. Like, how would one become dependent on the Stoneward Surges, for example?

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

28 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

It's hard to tell. both Ishar and Taln have very unique, powerful uses of their surges, but it might be just how skilled they are with them, as opposed to true savantism, where one becomes dependent on it. Like, how would one become dependent on the Stoneward Surges, for example?

Fair point. However, does one truly become dependent with savantism? Does a copper savant become dependent on burning copper? I think that was just because of the way tin works. Vin wasn't a savant, and she felt like she needed tin when she was out.

[First of the Tide He/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Hoppy said:

Fair point. However, does one truly become dependent with savantism? Does a copper savant become dependent on burning copper? I think that was just because of the way tin works. Vin wasn't a savant, and she felt like she needed tin when she was out.

good point. Still, it might just be experience, rather than an actual effect that the investiture has on the mind and/or body

[Treamayne]

On 12/8/2025 at 2:36 PM, Cade Strauss said:

The Heralds were exposed to nearly constant surge use for thousands of years, not to mention the unbound abilities they'd have after Honor splintered. Wouldn't they have extremely savantic abilities with the surges?

But there is another factor involved - they are Cognitive Shadows with fake bodies made of Investiture when they Return. Savantism is "A warping of the Spiritweb that may result in changes to the Physical Identity as it tries to match the warped spiritweb" - but Heralds are effectively frozen at the point they became Cognitive Shadows. 

We don't have confirmation either way, but that may explain why we do not see Savant-like flaws in the Heralds (just Cognitive Flaws from trauma and living too long). 

Edited December 9, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[First of the Tide He/him]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But there is another factor involved - they are Cognitive Shadows with fake bodies made of Investiture when they Return. Savantism is "A warping of the Spiritweb that may result in changes to the Physical Identity as it tries to match the warped spiritweb" - but Heralds are effectively frozen at the point they became Cognitive Shadows. 

We don't have confirmation either way, but that may explain why we do not see Savant-like flaws in the Heralds (just Cognitive Flaws from living to long and trauma). 

How do you always have such a thorough answer for everything? did you, like, memorize the whole arcanum or smth?

[Treamayne]

1 minute ago, First of the Tide said:

How do you always have such a thorough answer for everything? did you, like, memorize the whole arcanum or smth?

Been here a long time. I keep my ebooks in calibre for easy searching, and practice searching the Arcanum every week. I also sometimes edit the Coppermind (but mostly White Sand so far).

After all, that's how I also cobbled together the SHARDER FAQ. 

Sorry.

[First of the Tide He/him]

36 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Sorry

No, I wasn't trying to complain at you, sorry if it seemed that way, just curious

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, First of the Tide said:

No, I wasn't trying to complain at you, sorry if it seemed that way, just curious

No worries. It's one of the reasons why I try answering so many questions and look up references - that process helps me remember these little details

 

[Xanpheon]

I think the key thing to remember here is:

For a lot of magic systems in the cosmere, "Growth" in power isn't really a thing unless you become a Savant. You have a set level of power available to you, and you just learn how to use it better. Cases in point:

• Allomancers and Feruchemists are stated to not really improve in power, their capability is "set" from the start. Elend becomes, in terms of raw power, the strongest allomancer of his era (able to control Koloss without Duralumin where Vin needed to use Duralumin) after consuming the bead of Lerasium, while Vin was a much more skilled user of her powers which let her seemingly do more than he could. Spook grew in "power" with his tin after overusing it and becoming a Savant and we see him consuming more tin than others do - significantly more. Accessing more power.
• Sand Mastery doesn't really have an increase in power under normal circumstances. The number of ribbons one can control never changes unless you Overmaster, and go specifically beyond your limits (and thus pushing yourself closer to Savantism).
• On Sel, Elantrians are set in the level of power they control, they just get better at drawing Aons. Riina's power comes from being exceptionally good at drawing and "coding" with Aons, not from inherently being stronger than other Elantrians.

Nalthis is a little odd, but it's still more or less the same. You can learn to do more with the same amount of power - and you can acquire power from other people to also increase your own capabilities, but each person's individual capability barring breath is dependent on skill, rather than growing power.

The Radiant Orders are one of the few ways of organised access to a Manifestation of Investiture that grant a power increase as you improve. Going from barely able to control the investiture to being able to handle larger and larger amounts of power and express it in more and more explosive ways. 

High Ideal Radiants are probably about as close as we're ever going to get to seeing a Savant in a surge (beyond, specifically, the Soulcasting Savantism we see as a result of overusing Soulcaster fabrials). Their bond either mimics the effect of, or provides a controlled way to advance to a new stage of a state similar to Savantism.

[Nitpicking]

On 12/8/2025 at 2:36 PM, Cade Strauss said:

I get that the Nahel bond stops surge savantism because of rational limitations...but what about Heralds? The Heralds were exposed to nearly constant surge use for thousands of years, not to mention the unbound abilities they'd have after Honor splintered. Wouldn't they have extremely savantic abilities with the surges? If Spook became a savant after nonstop burning tin for a couple years, what could a thousand do?

Just for the record, Honor was not splintered. Tanavast was killed, but Honor still exists as of WaT, right up until it becomes part of Retribution (and we have a hint that this merger won't last).

On 12/8/2025 at 9:16 PM, Treamayne said:

But there is another factor involved - they are Cognitive Shadows with fake bodies made of Investiture when they Return. 

Fake bodies that can bear human children? I think they're really bodies made using Investiture.

[First of the Tide He/him]

@Nitpicking

Technically you don't have to, but these are some major spoilers for WaT, and it would be nice if they were spoiler.

Also, the first point still stands. Surges were still less regulated at that time because of the situation of the Honor Shard, and so the heralds would have had at least less bound abilities and possible unbound. You're pointing out a meaningless distinction in word choice, when the effect is shown to be the same, and they used an assumption made for like 95% of the series. 

WaT

Spoiler

Their false thoughts of Honor being splintered were significantly reinforced by the fact that surges weren't as regulated

Just because they got the reason wrong doesn't invalidate that particular argument at all, since the effect being used as evidence is directly seen, and it being caused by one thing or another doesn't change the essence of the argument.

edit: Just reread you name and now I feel kinda dumb, but still^^^

Edited December 13, 2025 by First of the Tide

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, First of the Tide said:

@Nitpicking

Technically you don't have to, but these are some major spoilers for WaT, and it would be nice if they were spoiler.

Also, the first point still stands. Surges were still less regulated at that time because of the situation of the Honor Shard, and so the heralds would have had at least less bound abilities and possible unbound. You're pointing out a meaningless distinction in word choice, when the effect is shown to be the same, and they used an assumption made for like 95% of the series. 

WaT

  Reveal hidden contents

Their false thoughts of Honor being splintered were significantly reinforced by the fact that surges weren't as regulated

Just because they got the reason wrong doesn't invalidate that particular argument at all, since the effect being used as evidence is directly seen, and it being caused by one thing or another doesn't change the essence of the argument.

edit: Just reread you name and now I feel kinda dumb, but still^^^

We're in the open cosmere discussions, anyone who wants to avoid spoilers should avoid the forums. Only IotED has to be spoilered

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Fake bodies that can bear human children? I think they're really bodies made using Investiture.

Not to Nitpick - but my point still stands - the body is not the biological body born to their spiritweb. How "real" the matter becomes after being forged from investiture has nothing to do with what I was saying. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let us know. 

[Nitpicking]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Not to Nitpick - but my point still stands - the body is not the biological body born to their spiritweb. How "real" the matter becomes after being forged from investiture has nothing to do with what I was saying. If you have evidence to the contrary, please let us know. 

I was perhaps misinterpreting what you wrote. To me specifically, "made of Investiture" means "... and not of matter consisting of axions [Cosmere atoms]."

[Treamayne]

57 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I was perhaps misinterpreting what you wrote. To me specifically, "made of Investiture" means "... and not of matter consisting of axions [Cosmere atoms]."

Matter-Energy-Investitre configuration of the Cosmere means that Investiture entering the Physical Realm can Convert to Matter (Herald Bodies, Feruchemist Tapping Pewter, etc.) or Energy (Aon Daa, Lightweaving Illusion, etc.) - or - Investiture can enter the Pysical Realm as itself, but it will appear like Physical Matter, but without the properties of Matter:

• Investiture appearing as a gas: Mist appears like Fog, but responds to investiture and does not display the properties of water vapor in air
• Investiture appearing as a liquid: The Well appears like water, but does not have the properties of a liquid in a large earthen bowl
• Investiture appearing as a solid: Shardblades appear as metals but have their own properties, not the properties of any similar Metallic molecule from the Periodic Table)

So, just because investiture has been converted into matter or energy does not mean that the source is not investitire or that it has the Connection and Identity of the matter it is replicating. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Kurkistan

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

Quote

yurisses

You once said that Investiture follows its own version of the laws of thermodynamics. The first one is that Investiture is neither created nor destroyed.

Is the second law of Investodynamics that the amount of corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere cannot decrease?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, the idea is that there is a third item in the equations--matter, energy, and investiture. That's the basis of how they work.

Entropy is not corrupted Investiture. The second law stands as is. However, there is a fourth law that relates to Adonalsium, which I'm not going to talk about at the moment.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

Hope that helps

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Regarding Radiants, I think it's because of the nature of savantism (emphasis mine):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.

Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

If savantism is like an uncontrolled spren bond, then a Radiant in turn is like a "controlled savant", so to speak. I suspect becoming an uncontrolled savant would probably require breaking the guardrails on the bond itself, not just using the abilities more powerfully.

 

Heralds are an interesting question, though. Perhaps the Honorblades being sapient allows them to regulate things more? Alternatively, it could have to do with something Tanavast says (W&T chapter 122):

Spoiler

And to my horror, I began to see a frightening number of futures where the Heralds stopped fighting. I hadn't … I hadn’t noticed what immortality was doing to them. Not just immortality—there was more. My power. They could not hold so much of my power.

Maybe the Heralds' souls are already being slammed so hard by Honor that the Surges can't get a grip?

 

On 12/8/2025 at 4:46 PM, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

Quote

A crash broke the silence, windows cracking, air rushing to fill the hole Taln left when he moved.

I don't think this is savantism. It doesn't seem to have much to do with Tension or Cohesion imo, Nale has a similar superspeed ability despite having different Surges, and Taln doesn't have his Blade in that scene anyway. I think it's more related to the "powers of Roshar itself" that Tanavast mentions (W&T 120):

Spoiler

I had the Heralds. And they, more and more, were able to draw on the powers of Roshar itself instead of just my Surges. I did not understand why or how, but I did not wish to seem weak by admitting that fact.

Perhaps more specifically powers of the Old Magic, and in this case the Wind (W&T chapter 86):

Spoiler

He felt a gust of wind in his face, and was given … the faintest impression. Not a vision, but a hint of a memory. Several, in sequence.

Darkness, followed by light as Nale—covered in ash and blood from his own cuts—pulled rubble aside and reached a hand to those trapped within.

Terror, cowering in a corner, as red eyes burst through a doorway—then Nale, moving with the speed of the wind, arrived to save those who had been forgotten.

Gratitude, looking past a man in black, tall, bleeding from one hand while he held a glittering Shardblade in the other. Wounded, but his stance saying as loud as any banner: You WILL NOT have them.

A dozen flashes in a row, each a fragment of something someone had seen and felt—taken by the Wind, then passed to Kaladin like a distant scent. Showing him a hero who had stood for millennia, time and time again.

 

On 12/12/2025 at 9:56 PM, Nitpicking said:

Fake bodies that can bear human children? I think they're really bodies made using Investiture.

Brandon said at one point that while Heralds can have kids, it's not necessarily "in the traditional way":

Spoiler

Racedogg2

Are Heralds are capable of procreation?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not necessarily saying in the traditional way, but yes, Heralds are capable of procreation.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

It's possible he's changed his mind on that, but he definitely had Shallan's relationship to Chana planned out for a while and thus probably outlined a way that Chana could have done the required alternate steps, so I'm inclined to think it's more just that Wind and Truth didn't have time to get into the details of the Davar kids' conception (yet?).

We also see a difference between them and normal matter at the end of the book: the existing Heralds' bodies all evaporate, but Kaladin leaves behind a corpse with burnt-out eyes, which Ishar attributes to him still having his original body. It seems likely to me that the Investiture used to create the Heralds' bodies, while doing an excellent mimicry of matter, still ultimately is Investiture and can be recalled to its original form. (I'm unsure whether this is related to why the Heralds don't appear to suffer savantism or not, though.)