Who Is Smarter: Rashek or Taravangian?

[Returned he/him]

I was wondering about this the other day and couldn't come to a fully satisfying answer.

Taravangian's intelligence is obviously incredible, if uneven, but on his famous day of brilliance he was almost transcendentally intelligent, enough so to contend with a Shard (and win!) via leaving notes for himself. He made connections between concepts and intuitive leaps so precise that he was able to foretell the future, and this was "honest" brilliance, no access to Fortune involved. That's amazing! He was then variably intelligent, at random, as he oversaw his plan over the course of a few years along with small circle of confidants.

Rashek, by compounding zinc, can become incredibly intelligent as well, up to some maximum level we're not aware of. He, too, contended with a Shard (and won!) through the accuracy of his knowledge and foresight and the depth of his planning. Since he accomplished this through zinc (presumably, I don't think it's actually stated anywhere that that's how he did his scheming here but it seems reasonable) it seems like this was also "honest" brilliance and did not use Fortune. Rashek was as intelligent as he wanted to be at any given moment over the thousand years he had to carry out his plan and almost nobody knew anything about it (save for a few Obligators who handled the atium ruse).

I'm not aware of any statements or good way to compare them directly, so whom do you all think is the smarter one? I, personally, lean towards Rashek but I can be convinced in the other direction. I choose Rashek because he worked directly against Ruin while under Ruin's observation and constant opposition, and his plan was effective and did not require tweaking along the way (though it didn't quite work out as he had expected, and he did die to Ruin's own machinations). Taravangian worked more around Odium than against him (and Odium knew about at least some of what was going on but didn't care), and his original scheme (king of the world plus getting Odium to spare his "kingdom") failed. Both had some sort of planning from other Shards overarching their own schemes, so that seems like a wash to me.

[king of nowhere]

by the results, i'd call rashek a borderline moron. aside from stuff he did while holding preservation, there is nothing brilliant in the way he conquered and ruled the final empire. his whole atium scheme was fine, but that's nothing compared to taravangian's diagram.

besides, rashek got himself killed very uncerimoniously, while holding all the cards. he was immortal and invincible in any way. there was only one weakness. and he let that happen. and he knew the well was about to get filled, and he knew that ruin would try something, and still he took no precautions. he could have killed kelsier and vin easily had he used his powers fully - had he prowled the city with bronze and tin, he could have easily discovered any mistborn, and quickly found the ones that weren't nobles.

but no, he was too complacent to take any step. 

[Treamayne]

I would say neither of them are smart.

Taravangian got help from Cultivation to have one smart day and thereafter spent more time below average than above average.

We have no indications that Rashek was particularly smart at all - an uneducated shepherd that happened to murder somebody to take their place. Sure he learned a lot through Fortune while holding the power of the Well - then became powerful enough that his many many mistakes could be covered by brute force. Zinc does not make one smart - it speeds the thinking you already do. Sazed was intelligent and Zinc made his intelligent thinking faster and more capable - but you can't learn on Zinc. For example; If you don't already know how to calculate the speed and trajectory of a Iron-Pulled Sconce, then all of the compounded Zinc you can muster won't get you that answer - and not the way Sazed was able to use it against Marsh. 

WoB:

Spoiler

Argent

Can tapping enough Feruchemical zinc allow one to match Taravangian's intellect on the day he created the Diagram? Or are the effects different somehow?

Brandon Sanderson

The effects are similar, but not exactly the same. Zinc is speed of thought specifically--while what happens to Taravangian increases multiple types of intelligence, not just raw 'processing power' so to speak.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 19, 2016)

 

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Guys, guys.

Rashek SLAPPED Kelsier Godsmiter's face off.  He killed the unkillable man with SLAPS.  Has Taravangian ever become so wise as to understand the true fundamental power of the almighty SLAP?  I think not.

Kelsier has achieved a state of PURE ANGRIES AGRIES AGAGANGRIES ANGRY that allows him to punch infinite beings.  Brilliant, not even Leonhard Euler's equations could explain that, the P.H.D.s in being SMART that you'd need to accomplish that would require twenty kajillion years of intense study for you or I to get.

And Rashek, while up against this UNSPEAKABLE POWAH, calculated the one way to win, with what we call THE SLAPPENING.

Because punch is fist, and slap is outstretched hand, and the greatest of all truths is this:

Paper beats Rock.

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

32 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

Guys, guys.

Rashek SLAPPED Kelsier Godsmiter's face off.  He killed the unkillable man with SLAPS.  Has Taravangian ever become so wise as to understand the true fundamental power of the almighty SLAP?  I think not.

Kelsier has achieved a state of PURE ANGRIES AGRIES AGAGANGRIES ANGRY that allows him to punch infinite beings.  Brilliant, not even Leonhard Euler's equations could explain that, the P.H.D.s in being SMART that you'd need to accomplish that would require twenty kajillion years of intense study for you or I to get.

And Rashek, while up against this UNSPEAKABLE POWAH, calculated the one way to win, with what we call THE SLAPPENING.

Because punch is fist, and slap is outstretched hand, and the greatest of all truths is this:

Paper beats Rock.

Wow. What wisdom.

[DoctaDajman]

13 hours ago, Returned said:

I was wondering about this the other day and couldn't come to a fully satisfying answer.

Taravangian's intelligence is obviously incredible, if uneven, but on his famous day of brilliance he was almost transcendentally intelligent, enough so to contend with a Shard (and win!) via leaving notes for himself. He made connections between concepts and intuitive leaps so precise that he was able to foretell the future, and this was "honest" brilliance, no access to Fortune involved. That's amazing! He was then variably intelligent, at random, as he oversaw his plan over the course of a few years along with small circle of confidants.

Rashek, by compounding zinc, can become incredibly intelligent as well, up to some maximum level we're not aware of. He, too, contended with a Shard (and won!) through the accuracy of his knowledge and foresight and the depth of his planning. Since he accomplished this through zinc (presumably, I don't think it's actually stated anywhere that that's how he did his scheming here but it seems reasonable) it seems like this was also "honest" brilliance and did not use Fortune. Rashek was as intelligent as he wanted to be at any given moment over the thousand years he had to carry out his plan and almost nobody knew anything about it (save for a few Obligators who handled the atium ruse).

I'm not aware of any statements or good way to compare them directly, so whom do you all think is the smarter one? I, personally, lean towards Rashek but I can be convinced in the other direction. I choose Rashek because he worked directly against Ruin while under Ruin's observation and constant opposition, and his plan was effective and did not require tweaking along the way (though it didn't quite work out as he had expected, and he did die to Ruin's own machinations). Taravangian worked more around Odium than against him (and Odium knew about at least some of what was going on but didn't care), and his original scheme (king of the world plus getting Odium to spare his "kingdom") failed. Both had some sort of planning from other Shards overarching their own schemes, so that seems like a wash to me.

I think on his most brilliant day, Taravangian was probably smarter in a general term. 

Rashek was said to have a perfect memory too.  Probably from copper and compounding in a way, but still that would imply he had as much book knowledge as one could ever ask for. And he probably remembers pretty well the time he held the power of a shard too. 

12 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

by the results, i'd call rashek a borderline moron. aside from stuff he did while holding preservation, there is nothing brilliant in the way he conquered and ruled the final empire. his whole atium scheme was fine, but that's nothing compared to taravangian's diagram.

besides, rashek got himself killed very uncerimoniously, while holding all the cards. he was immortal and invincible in any way. there was only one weakness. and he let that happen. and he knew the well was about to get filled, and he knew that ruin would try something, and still he took no precautions. he could have killed kelsier and vin easily had he used his powers fully - had he prowled the city with bronze and tin, he could have easily discovered any mistborn, and quickly found the ones that weren't nobles.

but no, he was too complacent to take any step. 

What we see of Rashek is him after 1000 years of watching anyone he had ever gotten close to die. That man likely learned more and wanted to forget more than is even fathomable to us mere mortals. I have a friend who is turning 90 soon and she cannot forget a number she sees or hears. Perfect memory for birthdates, phone numbers, and even license plates. Literally, she couldn't tell you the model of car or color of car you drive but she will never forget the license plate you had 5 years ago. She told us recently that she doesnt want to remember any more numbers. They are stuck in her head and she doesnt want to remember any more. 

Now take that and think about a lifetime 11x that. Even with copper being able to be used as a mind dump, Rashek is then left with massive gaps of time which would destroy your psych too. 

I dont think Rashek wanted to live. He probably did see that Vin was about to him and he just didnt care anymore. Not because he was a moron but because he was exhausted. He wasn't meant to be immortal. This is sort of a theme, Hoid and arguably Vasher are the only ones in the cosmere who have surpassed the 1000 year mark without dipping into depression from what I have seen. 

By any measurable sense I think Rashek takes the W on this poll. Not because he is particularly brilliant or had moments like the diagram but because he just has 10 lifetimes worth of remembering everything. How bored he got at the end doesnt even matter. He didnt have to advance medicine. He didnt have to develop advanced weaponry. He didnt want to... it would all be used by ruin to destroy the world eventually if he had. Rashek was smart enough to purposefully keep his planet in a 1000 year dark age to keep them all alive. Sadly the dude just didnt want to live any more. But his powerset absolutely lends itself to allowing him to be incredibly sharp. 

Taravangian was warped and trapped in his smartness. Probably the more brilliant of the 2 for a day but does that brilliance mean anything if you have to get a team together and study your new language for decades before becoming a god and understanding finally?  Total hogwash. 

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

By any measurable sense I think Rashek takes the W on this poll. Not because he is particularly brilliant or had moments like the diagram but because he just has 10 lifetimes worth of remembering everything. How bored he got at the end doesnt even matter. He didnt have to advance medicine. He didnt have to develop advanced weaponry. He didnt want to... it would all be used by ruin to destroy the world eventually if he had. Rashek was smart enough to purposefully keep his planet in a 1000 year dark age to keep them all alive. Sadly the dude just didnt want to live any more. 

 

that is a post-fact justification, and it can be applied to anything; hence it doesn't prove anything, most of all that rashek did anything smart. rashek almost destroied the world many times with his blunders, but in the end the world was saved, so it's good. and we just give him credit as "all part of his plan"?

no, his plan backfired in several ways. rashek subjugated the entire world under a brutal teocracy, and no, he didn't have to do that. it didn't even advance his cause. i suppose he made it legal for noblemen to dispose of the skaa as they wanted because otherwise ruin would have found a way to use those skaa? was that all part of some great plan too? no, rashek was just a petty suprematist who applied his ideals of racial domination to the world. 

then, after a mere 1000 years, the first time ruin could try to rock his boat, ruin actually won. rashek held all the cards: he was functionally immortal, invincible, and firmly in charge of the whole world. ruin had no capacity to influence things at large. yet rashek let himself be beated. or, if your interpretation is correct, choose to not fight, despite knowing that the world itself was on the line.

with the fall of rashek, ruin had huge armies of hemalurgic servants ready to dominate. Yeah, good job rashek! he needed all those hemalurgic servants because he could not trust human armies, because despite all his power (both personal and political), he could not make the world into anything better than the crappiest dictatorship ever with a 0% approval rating. it's not like he could have turned the world a little better, so there would be less rebellions and he wouldn't need those servants... by the way, are you really justifying that rashek prevented the invention of advanced medicine because "ruin would have found some way to use it against the world", but then completely glossing on him building up koloss armies? 

and the whole world was left unprepared. sure, there were the caverns. the storages. but only the kandra actually knew ruin even exhisted, and they were so secretive, they never shared this knowledge with others. oh, the inquisitors knew, as they has kwaan's plate in their stronghold. yeah, put the secret knowledge where only the mind-controlled servants of the enemy can access it. Surely this is all part of some grand plan and not a colossal blunder.

as a result, vin got swiftly manipulated into releasing ruin. it's not like this was an easy accomplishment. it was literally almost impossible for ruin to get released: a bad person would take the power of the well for himself, while a good person would not release ruin. but rashek managed to serve to ruin the perfect combination needed to release him.

i could go on from there. but in the end, ruin almost won, and vin found the secret just barely at the last second. actually, marsh and kelsier did. and that was preservation's plan, not rashek. still, of a continent's worth of people, there were only a few tens of thousands of survivors. 

and even if rashek could have kept ruin imprisoned, his enforced dark age guaranteed, by the time the other planets discovered insterstellar travel, his planet would be completely unprotected against any external threat. 

no, i'm not buying the "it was the only way" argument. it absolutely wasn't the only way, and anyone remotely competent could have done much, much better. unfortunately, the only person kwaan could get to stop alendi was a bigoted, ignorant, hateful packman whose only positive qualities was to have superpowers that would allow him to kill alendi, and some leadership among similarly closeminded packmen. 

too bad he could not use that charisma to get a better public image, so that the people would revolt less and he would not need to keep koloss armies ready for ruin to take.

Rashek did well in hiding the atium - well, not great, because when it was time to burn it quickly, there was nobody who knew the secret, nor a convenient force of seers as the very existence of people with the right power to hinder ruin was a secret. preservation had to snap them himself. but ruin didn't find the atium, so rashek at least got a pass there.

and he did well with the caves. ok, those were useful. none of those two things alone would have saved the world, as ruin was slowly destroying it even without atium.

everything else rashek did, it was easily taken advantage by ruin, and was only useful to the heroes in ways that are very hard to justify as a grand plan.

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

Spoiler

Advanced Medicine, I posit, might be argued to be Ruin-aligned, but not evil.  Medicine is, essentially, poison delivered at such a dosage as to be lethal to a parasite or pathogen while not being lethal to the person.  Virology is the study of how to KILL viruses.  It's ruin, just ruin aimed at something other than humanity.  A surgeon's scalpel is a blade, made to cut and rend flesh.  Amputation is a destruction/death/breaking so that the severed part can die and take the disease with it.

Meta-textually, the medical field is one of the hallmarks of modernity, a kind of 'forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge' (one must remember that in Sanderson's native theology, partaking of the fruit and leaving the garden is a good and necessary step rather than an original sin, a transgression but not a wrong) separating modern conceptualizations of reality from pre-modern conceptualizations (pre-modern cultures, in general, tended to have strong taboos about dissection, similarly to how the taboos on cannibalism are common for most peoples.  It's not inconceivable for Rashek to see such a thing as monstrous considering his original culture and formative years, in which case, the creation of inquisitors is monstrous, yes, but he sees them as his monsters).  The era of modern medicine is also the era of many of humanity's worst atrocities (some of which were made possible specifically because once-dangerous-to-outsiders-because-of-disease parts of Africa could now be exploited with much less risk to said outsiders once things like Quinine were easily produced).  Keeping Scadrial aesthetically 'innocent' of that progress in this way adds to the imaginative and unique atmosphere that made the original Mistborn trilogy so fascinating and compelling; after all, J.R.R. Tolkien once said that "the electric street-lamp may indeed be ignored, simply because it is so insignificant and transient. Fairy-stories, at any rate, have many more permanent and fundamental things to talk about", and so we might consider the lack of modern medicine as being, in truth, a thing of Preservation, of fantasy, a hint that Scadrial is a wonderland beneath all its ash and tyranny (and this hint is of a piece with Mare's picture of flowers).  Under this view, the implication that the field of medicine progresses under Harmony, if slowly, speaks not to the Preservation within him but to the Ruin, wherein humanity is allowed to leave the garden and embark on that eternal round of improvement and progression rather than stagnate.  In this conceptualization, Rashek emerges as a counterpart to the serpent, one who would lock Adam and Eve in the garden and burn the tree down, one who refuses to allow humanity its free will and destiny, convinced that it is thwarting the devil.

This sort of morally myopic tyranny is aptly described by C.S. Lewis:  "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

Rashek and Taravangian both appear as devil-figures who, in their pride, believe that they can save everyone, but, for all their intelligence, lack the wisdom and humility to understand that their plans are freaking stupid evil heinous crap.  The key difference, perhaps, is that Rashek opposes progress while Taravangian perverts it (indeed, Taravangian's hospital, as compared to Rashek's suppression of medical advancement, is worth its own analysis.  The fact that Roshar has such hospitals is perhaps a hint that for all its fairies/spren it is a colonized fairyland, a paradise being paved, and that the supposed good of humanity often hides the foulest crimes).

In short, Rashek's position on medicine is indicative of a lack of wisdom and humility rather than a lack of intelligence, while Taravangian's perversion of what ought to be a house of healing is indicative of a lack of wisdom and humility rather than a sign of intelligence.  However, Rashek's suppression of medicine makes Scadrial more 'fantastic' in a horrifying way while Taravangian's hospital makes Roshar more 'realistic' in a horrifying way, so, aesthetically, Rashek comes across as a native tyrant of fairyland (preserving brutality and ignorance) where Taravangian comes off as a tyrant foreign to fairyland (introducing the most wicked cynicism and sophistication).

Spoilered because boring and pretentious.  In summary, I think that Rashek was actually spot-on as far as "advanced medicine = ruin" goes, but that doesn't mean we're meant to see him as being in the right.

[alder24]

If you ask about one singular day of brilliance, then Rashak probably wins because he Ascended, but taking all their lives into consideration, my vote goes to Taravangian. During the whole of RoW he was at his lowest in terms of intelligence and yet he managed to create a plan, execute it and outsmarted Odium on the day he was the stupidest ever. That's quite impressive on its own, but you have to factor the Diagram and all his plans that led to this success. Taravangian was actively deciphering his Diagram and he was figuring out what to do as the time went on. He didn't just have that one day of brilliance, he also had to use his intelligence as much as he could every day to win in the end. And even before he went to the Nightwatcher, he was already quite intelligent.

Rashek on the other hand got most of his knowledge handed to him by the power of Preservation or by Ruin (Hemalurgy) during the Ascension, that's also the moment when he most likely created the plan to hide Atium. He spent most of his 1000 year regime sitting and doing nothing in particular, while his empire was stagnant and suffering from internal strife. He also got himself killed by Vin in a spectacular fashion. Sure, he could access raw processing power unmatched by anyone using F-zinc, but that's not quite the same as intelligence. His strategy against Ruin was successful, but it not only relied on plans made previously by Preservation, this was just his back-up plan in case he died and couldn't Ascend again. Even Rashek himself saw no way of defeating Ruin, all of his plans with caves and Atium were meant to delay Ruin to give people more time to live and maybe, just maybe find a way to defeat Ruin on their own. But Rashek didn't plan to win against Ruin, he was content with keeping the Scadrian status quo indefinitely. Taravangian on the other hand threw a gauntlet into Odium's face and won.