Magic vanishing in era 4?

[bmcclure7]

Have you noticed that there’s a lot less magic in era 4 ? and what magic there is seems to be mainly used to power machines rather than people. Do you think this is because Brandon is keeping the details of the magic system saves for future books or do you think they will just be less magic users in the future?

[Argenti he/him]

6 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Have you noticed that there’s a lot less magic in era 4 ? and what magic there is seems to be mainly used to power machines rather than people. Do you think this is because Brandon is keeping the details of the magic system saves for future books or do you think they will just be less magic users in the future?

Well, yes.

Magic did become weaker, but more than that, technology is the great equalizer. One hundred years ago, the average person could neither read nor write. Now we all have access to the sum total of human information in a few seconds. 

Magic ceases to be magic once it's understood and mechanized- it then becomes a science. This is already happening with allomancy.

Why use a person when you can use a far stronger, usable by anyone, machine?

[Treamayne]

On 10/5/2025 at 3:07 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Have you noticed that there’s a lot less magic in era 4 ? and what magic there is seems to be mainly used to power machines rather than people. Do you think this is because Brandon is keeping the details of the magic system saves for future books or do you think they will just be less magic users in the future?

I think that what we have seen so far of Era Four is in the Venn Diagram intersection of three factors:

1. As you said, not spoiling MoIs intended to be introduced or explained elsewhere (e. g. No Nomad using the Surge of Division as that is meant for SA 6-10)
2. Increasing use of Fabrials (in the E4 definition - Technological access to Investiture) as an equalizer
3. The stories he has wanted to tell are not about the people on Major Shardworlds that would be wielding the kind of investiture only found on planets where Shards reside. 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

FirstSelector

So, do you have a name, like an in-world name for a large magical construction, like the things that picks Elantrians?

Brandon Sanderson

That was why I invented the term "fabrial." It will become widespread eventually, as the term for meaning, kind of, magic-type devices in the cosmere. That's not what you call it right now, but you can start calling them all fabrials.

<edited for length and relevance> Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Questioner

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

There is not one there.

Questioner

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

Brandon Sanderson

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Questioner

So there is inherent Investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

Quote

DrogaKrolow

Technological progress. So Scadrial is going all the way to cyberpunk.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

DrogaKrolow

But do you plan to do it anywhere else?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, with an asterisk, right? Roshar has a very different technological path but they have access to so much more Investiture in an easy to use format. Roshar is really heading toward what we call magicpunk, or things like this, magepunk, where you are using a magical power source and things like this. So their technology is going to go weird but it's going to go fast once they start figuring things out because they have easy access to Investiture resources.

Scadrial: slower for various reasons and things like that, but it's ahead.

And then there was Taldain, which was really far ahead but then froze when it got-- Offworld travel was stopped and it became isolationist.

So most everybody is kind of heading that direction but, yeah.

DrogaKrolow.pl interview (March 17, 2017)

 

Hope that helps

Edited October 22, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[BinarySecond]

"God made man. Sam Colt made them equal."

That's a very nice highly invested spirit web. It would be a shame if something were to happen to you.

 

So anyway I started blasting.

[bmcclure7]

22 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

"God made man. Sam Colt made them equal."

That's a very nice highly invested spirit web. It would be a shame if something were to happen to you.

 

So anyway I started blasting.

Are there any guns that can actually harm spirit web directly? Perhaps the shard guns

On 10/5/2025 at 2:17 PM, Argenti said:

Well, yes.

Magic did become weaker, but more than that, technology is the great equalizer. One hundred years ago, the average person could neither read nor write. Now we all have access to the sum total of human information in a few seconds. 

Magic ceases to be magic once it's understood and mechanized- it then becomes a science. This is already happening with allomancy.

Why use a person when you can use a far stronger, usable by anyone, machine?

Do we have any evidence that using a machine is actually stronger when it comes to investiture?

[Argenti he/him]

4 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Are there any guns that can actually harm spirit web directly? Perhaps the shard guns

On 10/5/2025 at 3:17 PM, Argenti said:

Shade gun that Nazh Used.

5 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

Do we have any evidence that using a machine is actually stronger when it comes to investiture?

The super copper cloud, the rockets that use steel pushes- ect. A normal person can't do that. 

 

[BinarySecond]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

Are there any guns that can actually harm spirit web directly? Perhaps the shard guns

If you shoot someone with a bullet, and the intent to make a hemalurgic spike...would it?

[redundant]

For a device that (I think) uses more investiture than a human can safely do, I'd wager the Intensifier counts. It's able to mess with draconic technology. There's no confirmation either way, but even a herald can take a Nahel bond, while a dragon cannot because of how invested they are. 

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

If you shoot someone with a bullet, and the intent to make a hemalurgic spike...would it?

WoB:

Spoiler

Sorana (paraphrased)

Would a spike charge if I threw it at someone with the intention to spike something out of him and hit the right bindpoint?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Sorana (paraphrased)

So spike darts are a thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and spike guns are a thing as well.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

Caveat: The bullet-spike would need to be a metal that can withstand the forces of firearms - e. g. a Tin slug is unlikely to make an effective Tin Spike Bullet to steal senses. Just like E2 aluminum bullets have to be an alloy to be unpushable because true alluminum would not survive being shot from a modern firearm. So - metal purity and alloy percentages should still apply. 

Spoiler

Longshot_97

This question concerns Mistborn Era 2. Aluminum at this time is supremely rare and quite expensive, and Wax is seen lamenting his profound lack of aluminum guns and bullets fairly often. However, couldn't he fashion a "Poor Man's Aluminum" of sorts by coating his guns (and potentially bullets) in a thin veneer of iron, then Feruchemically charging it? You've noted that metalminds can still be pushed, but much less than un-Invested metal. This could help him, in the absence of aluminum. So, is there a reason he has not done that?

Brandon Sanderson

The layer you would get by just that little coat would be so small that it'd have very little effect. Now, there's a pretty good argument for putting it into bullets. The problem there is: are the alloys that make good bullets going to work very well? Now, granted, aluminum doesn’t make for great bullets either. But any aluminum alloy kind of gets the property of aluminum. Where any iron alloy does not necessarily get the property of being able to allomantically or feruchemically interact with it in the right way. Can you get there? It's an excellent question that I perhaps should explore. I like this idea. But it's harder than you make it out to be. It is a good idea, though; it's a pretty good idea.

r/books AMA 2022 (July 7, 2022)

Hope that helps

Edited October 7, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Qianweilian He/him]

9 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sorana (paraphrased)

Would a spike charge if I threw it at someone with the intention to spike something out of him and hit the right bindpoint?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Sorana (paraphrased)

So spike darts are a thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, and spike guns are a thing as well.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

I'm actually kind of annoyed because I had this exact WoB posted to my clipboard as was going to respond, but you beat me by 10 minutes.

10 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Caveat: The bullet-spike would need to be a metal that can withstand the forces of firearms - e. g. a Tin slug is unlikely to make an effective Tin Spike Bullet to steal senses. Just like E2 aluminum bullets have to be an alloy to be unpushable because true alluminum would not survive being shot from a modern firearm. So - metal purity and alloy percentages should still apply. 

Honestly, the exact percentage probably doesn't matter that much if you're firing spikes past being able to shoot straight. You wouldn't be able to hit a bind point reliably enough; it would probably be best to just aim for immobilizing pain (can't find WoB) and spiritweb damage.

[bmcclure7]

On 10/7/2025 at 8:06 AM, Argenti said:

Shade gun that Nazh Used.

The super copper cloud, the rockets that use steel pushes- ect. A normal person can't do that. 

 

True but still, I feel like there must be some drawback. I mean that’s crazy. This is a fantasy story. They have to keep the characters relevant somehow. Otherwise machines would solve everything and they would be no plot

Edited October 9, 2025 by bmcclure7

[Argenti he/him]

13 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

This is a fantasy story.

era 4 isn't fantasy- it's scifi. Just because someone isn't individually as powerful doesn't mean they're not important. Did nukes put an end to job of politicians? 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Argenti said:

era 4 isn't fantasy- it's scifi.

Apologize for the slightly OT - but I think Era 4 is more Sci-Fan: Sci-fi setting with fantasy elements (like Star Wars and Red Rising). 

Does not impact you conclusion though. Fabrial Tech will allow a spread of access to invested arts, and also allow some large-scale things that could not be accomplished otherwise (like FTL itself). But it also means that a character does not have to be Vin-level Invested to be relevant. 

That's my take anyway. 

[Argenti he/him]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Apologize for the slightly OT - but I think Era 4 is more Sci-Fan: Sci-fi setting with fantasy elements (like Star Wars and Red Rising). 

Does not impact you conclusion though. Fabrial Tech will allow a spread of access to invested arts, and also allow some large-scale things that could not be accomplished otherwise (like FTL itself). But it also means that a character does not have to be Vin-level Invested to be relevant. 

That's my take anyway. 

That's true, yes. It's like starwars.

Edited October 9, 2025 by Argenti

[Qianweilian He/him]

23 hours ago, Argenti said:

That's true, yes. It's like starwars.

I feel like star wars isn't the best comparison, as the main characters for nine movies have "mysterious powers from another age" or "the chosen one."

[bmcclure7]

On 10/9/2025 at 11:59 AM, Argenti said:

era 4 isn't fantasy- it's scifi. Just because someone isn't individually as powerful doesn't mean they're not important. Did nukes put an end to job of politicians? 

No era 4 is science fantasy much like Star Wars or Warhammer 40k not science fiction. And there are literally people that make arguments that include their weapons, make most politicians exception of the president worlds complete control of over the nuclear weapons obsolete. But that’s different discussion. Either way Brandon Sanderson built this entire franchise on his magic systems. Having characters you can’t use magic or are always out fast by people using machines would kind of be disappointing to a lot of fans, including me

 

On 10/9/2025 at 3:07 PM, Treamayne said:

Apologize for the slightly OT - but I think Era 4 is more Sci-Fan: Sci-fi setting with fantasy elements (like Star Wars and Red Rising). 

Does not impact you conclusion though. Fabrial Tech will allow a spread of access to invested arts, and also allow some large-scale things that could not be accomplished otherwise (like FTL itself). But it also means that a character does not have to be Vin-level Invested to be relevant. 

That's my take anyway. 

Funny actually I came to the opposite conclusion order to be relevant our characters will have to be even more invested than they are now. I don’t think Vin would be nearly as impressive in a era 4 cosmere meaning that if we’re going to continue to make characters like her, we need characters at least Lord ruler level either that or fundamentally change what the Cosmere is

22 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I feel like star wars isn't the best comparison, as the main characters for nine movies have "mysterious powers from another age" or "the chosen one."

I’m sure that many forms of investigator and investment arts could be qualified as a mysterious power from another age. And all we know there might actually be a chosen one. It’s not like there hasn’t been chosen once before the Cosmere and seemed the future is a thing.

Edited October 11, 2025 by bmcclure7

[Treamayne]

45 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

On 10/9/2025 at 4:07 PM, Treamayne said:

Apologize for the slightly OT - but I think Era 4 is more Sci-Fan: Sci-fi setting with fantasy elements (like Star Wars and Red Rising). 

Does not impact you conclusion though. Fabrial Tech will allow a spread of access to invested arts, and also allow some large-scale things that could not be accomplished otherwise (like FTL itself). But it also means that a character does not have to be Vin-level Invested to be relevant. 

That's my take anyway. 

Funny actually I came to the opposite conclusion order to be relevant our characters will have to be even more invested than they are now. I don’t think Vin would be nearly as impressive in a era 4 cosmere meaning that if we’re going to continue to make characters like her, we need characters at least Lord ruler level either that or fundamentally change what the Cosmere is

Your opinion is as valid as any other E4 theory for which we do not have enough information yet to progress beyond idle speculation. That said, I do not understand the chain of reasoning that led you to that conclusion. To me (everything after this is my deduction):

• Fabrials may be ubiquitous and integrated into normal daily life
  • I doubt TLR level compounded Fabrials will also be commonplace - even if normal Scadrian/Rosharan/Aether fabrials are
• Normal people may have access to "translators," "Pewtermind physical augments," etc.  - but I doubt everybody will have access to everything
  • Even if everybody has many/a lot/all available Fabrial MagiTech - a, continuing the previous example, naturally invested Mistborn would also have all their normal abilities plus all the extra tools that are ubiquitous

Basically, if everybody has Invested Tools; then Invested Protagonists will have their normal abilities Plus all the same tools as everybody else.

So, is it possible (likely even) to have an Antagonist who has some super Fabrial Collection that can make them (still continuing the Vin example) Mistborn-level Peer dangerous. Sure - how else would we have a Big Bad without that possibility. Will every "normal joe" have that amount of tech, and the skill to use it. Unlikely. 

I'd be curious to hear how your reasoning diverges. 

Edited October 11, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Qianweilian He/him]

2 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

we need characters at least Lord ruler level

I disagree mostly because I think Brandon does just fine with lower powered protagonists. Kenton, Tress, Siri, Marasi, Steris, Nikaro, Sarene, Hrathen, TWoK Kaladin, Dusk, etc. are straight up weak compared to their peers and they are in very engaging books. It's even one of Brandon's laws of magic (of which you say his franchise is built on) that limitations are more interesting than powers.

[bmcclure7]

3 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I disagree mostly because I think Brandon does just fine with lower powered protagonists. Kenton, Tress, Siri, Marasi, Steris, Nikaro, Sarene, Hrathen, TWoK Kaladin, Dusk, etc. are straight up weak compared to their peers and they are in very engaging books. It's even one of Brandon's laws of magic (of which you say his franchise is built on) that limitations are more interesting than powers.

Well I hope you’re wrong as have characters with cool powers is what brought me to the cosmere his underpowered books are alright but don’t think I would be interested in cosmere where they were the norm

[Nitpicking]

18 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Well I hope you’re wrong as have characters with cool powers is what brought me to the cosmere his underpowered books are alright but don’t think I would be interested in cosmere where they were the norm

I'm on record here as saying the Stormlight Archive lost a lot of its impact for me when Brandon started making a tale of gods and only gods, with normal people (like the Sadeas family) too unimportant to be worth the page count to include.

[BinarySecond]

On 10/12/2025 at 2:15 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Well I hope you’re wrong as have characters with cool powers is what brought me to the cosmere his underpowered books are alright but don’t think I would be interested in cosmere where they were the norm

I think a happy medium allows for more interesting stories. Imagine Stormlight if Kaladin was as strong as TLR.

I think Wax fits in that happy medium as a good example, prior to his final book at least. He's got some powers and he's nicely creative with application of them.

Our Knight Radiants are similar, until 4th/5th Ideal at least. IMHO.

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 10/13/2025 at 8:31 AM, BinarySecond said:

Imagine Stormlight if Kaladin was as strong as TLR

I mean, TLR is more of a plot device than an actual antagonist.

[bmcclure7]

On 10/22/2025 at 11:40 AM, Qianweilian said:

I mean, TLR is more of a plot device than an actual antagonist.

Fair point

[BinarySecond]

On 10/22/2025 at 5:40 PM, Qianweilian said:

I mean, TLR is more of a plot device than an actual antagonist.

That's kind of the point I'm making though, he's so strong that for a protagonist character it wouldn't be a satisfying long term. 

Star Wars would be pretty boring if Luke defeats Darth Vader in their first encounter. "Don't worry Obi Wan - I've got this"

I'm writing more because something was bothering me. Antagonists are plot devices. Further, if we wanted to be extremely reductive about the perspective we take on stories, everything could be, in some fashion, considered a plot device.

Edited October 27, 2025 by BinarySecond
I'm a pedant.

[Qianweilian He/him]

5 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Antagonists are plot plot devices. Further, if we wanted to be extremely reductive about the perspective we take on stories, everything could be, in some fashion, considered a plot device.

Sorry, I worded that oddly. What I meant it that TLR is more of a looming threat rather than someone we actually know who takes action to stop the protagonists. He's a goal, not a rival, sorry if my wording caused confusion.