Potential Healing of Hoid's Torment?

[SteelBagel]

So if hoid cared to heal his torment, here's how I think would be the best method to go about it. granted, given how he held the dawnshard for far longer then sigzil, this is far from a garunteed solution, even if it wasn't pretty theoretical, and it may not be possible to heal it at all. That said, I think an Awakened object is the best bet. Hoid can't use a sunheart because he'd need a Yolish one, and that would be very difficult to make, even if no human sacrifice was required. But what about an Awakened object that mimics a sunheart, the same way nightblood mimics a ShardBlade. You awaken with a command like "Take only the damaged parts of my Soul" or "Take the Investiture I try and give you.". It may be best to make this out of some sort of special material to hold the invesititure. Maybe a real sunheart, maybe a peice of nicrosil/unsealed nicrosilmind, maybe a gemstone, maybe even some Edglium (Endowment's god metal) as that would probably have helpful properties, considering you want to "endow" it with your own Investiture, and it's part of endowment's magic system, so it probably wouldn't resist the way most god metals or pre-invested objects might. 

I think if any method would work to heal Hoid, this would be it. Thoughts?

[Nitpicking]

Why can't Hoid use a Sunheart? Sigzil isn't from Canticle any more than Cephandrius?

[SteelBagel]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Why can't Hoid use a Sunheart? Sigzil isn't from Canticle any more than Cephandrius?

Sigzil also can't use sunhearts (or he couldn't for most of the book, including the portion where he cured his Torment.) He can only use the one, the rosharan sunheart, because he was from roshar. Therefore, Hoid would need a Yolish Sunheart, and no such thing exists as far as we know. To make one, he'd have to bring someone there and then leave them to die, which seems pretty out of line for Hoid's moral code. Plus, we have no idea what modern Yolen is like, so it may not even be possibe. Brandon has said the population of Yolen is so low you could count to it, so there may not be any targets suitable for kidnapping and sacrifice even if Hoid was willing. 

Edited July 7, 2025 by SteelBagel

[Jult]

8 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

To make one, he'd have to bring someone there and then leave them to die, which seems pretty out of line for Hoid's moral code.

 We're talking about this guy's moral code, right?

Quote

"You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen." - Wit to Dalinar; WoR chapter 67

If he's willing to let a world burn, then I think he'd let one person (or dragon) burn.

I think the thing that is more likely to hold Hoid back is that he probably couldn't heal his torment and continue to wield his Dawnshard. That being said, I agree that he might be too altered by his prolonged use of Exist for a "normal" sunheart to work. Especially since his spirit web must be the most complicated web in the entire Cosmere given all of the MoIs that he plays with. He probably would need a more potent solution like the one you are describing.

[SteelBagel]

4 hours ago, Jult said:

 We're talking about this guy's moral code, right?

If he's willing to let a world burn, then I think he'd let one person (or dragon) burn.

I think the thing that is more likely to hold Hoid back is that he probably couldn't heal his torment and continue to wield his Dawnshard. That being said, I agree that he might be too altered by his prolonged use of Exist for a "normal" sunheart to work. Especially since his spirit web must be the most complicated web in the entire Cosmere given all of the MoIs that he plays with. He probably would need a more potent solution like the one you are describing.

There's a difference between letting one person burn and actively throwing them into the fire. I don't think it's definite negative, he might still do it, but it would be a hard choice for him to make. And again, that's only if he can somehow kidnap someone all the way to Canticle without being able to fight, especially consdering the Yolish are probably the most aware of him and his tricks in the entire cosmere.

Sigzil managed to heal his Torment and keep using the benefits of it while avoiding the negatives.

[alder24]

On 7/6/2025 at 7:04 PM, SteelBagel said:

I think if any method would work to heal Hoid, this would be it. Thoughts?

Possibly, there is a WoB confirming that it's theoretically possible for Hoid to get rid of his Dawnshard's after effects, even though they are on a level beyond that of Nomad's. However, one factor that might play a decisive role here is perception. Sig considers those after effects in a very negative way and doesn't want them, that's why he calls them a Torment. Hoid doesn't think this way about it, he doesn't think it's a bad thing, it's not a Torment for him. If it's not something negative he doesn't want to have, then he might be unable to get rid of it using the same method Sig used. But that's a bit speculative.

Spoiler

Octavia Escamilla

If Zellion/Sigzil gets rid of the Torment, could Hoid get rid of...?

Brandon Sanderson

Theoretically, it's possible that Hoid could get rid of the distortions to his soul. He held the Dawnshard a lot longer, and his distortions are more... how shall we say... pervasive.

Brandon's Bookclub - Sunlit Man (Nov. 17, 2023)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Let's talk about the Torment for a second. Hoid would not call what has happened to him a Torment. Hoid, by holding a Dawnshard, was made permanently unable to cause physical harm to other beings. Eating meat makes him nauseous (if he is somehow able to eat it, and a lot of the times he just can't). That is because of the nature of the Dawnshard that he held actively warping and changing his spirit. He would not name it this. Nomad has named what has happened to him, a Torment. This is not a term that you can universally apply as a magical aspect of something. This is Sigzil saying "this terrible thing happened to me". And indeed what is happening to Sigzil is on a level beyond what happened to Hoid. So therefore perhaps other arcanists would say, "Yes, these are an aspect of holding a Dawnshard and Torment is the right way", but that word is loaded. That word has meaning, and someone is naming it this. You are not gonna run into a large set of people- there are only four Dawnshards- and you're not gonna run into a large set of people that have held one, so there may be no consensus even in-world to what these are called, and if they are Torment or blessings or what they are. Holding a Dawnshard will warp your soul. It's so much Investiture, it is so powerful, that you cannot hold one even briefly without it having a permanent effect upon you. 

Secret Project #4 Reveal and Livestream (March 29, 2022)

[Jult]

1 hour ago, SteelBagel said:

There's a difference between letting one person burn and actively throwing them into the fire. I don't think it's definite negative, he might still do it, but it would be a hard choice for him to make. And again, that's only if he can somehow kidnap someone all the way to Canticle without being able to fight, especially consdering the Yolish are probably the most aware of him and his tricks in the entire cosmere.

Agreed to pretty much all of this. I'd say I trust Hoid like 10-20% less than you do. I don't think he'd like the choice, but I also don't think he'd have too hard of a time making it.

1 hour ago, SteelBagel said:

Sigzil managed to heal his Torment and keep using the benefits of it while avoiding the negatives.

Right, but Sigzil no longer has Exist in his possession. Hoid has it now (as far as we know). I don't think Sigzil could have cured his Torment if he was still in possession of Exist. I'd even wager that his Torment would come back if he were to take up Exist again.

I don't think Hoid is willing to permanently part with Exist seeing as he's picked it up at least 3 times now.

[SteelBagel]

5 hours ago, Jult said:

Right, but Sigzil no longer has Exist in his possession. Hoid has it now (as far as we know). I don't think Sigzil could have cured his Torment if he was still in possession of Exist. I'd even wager that his Torment would come back if he were to take up Exist again.

I don't think Hoid is willing to permanently part with Exist seeing as he's picked it up at least 3 times now.

Does hoid still have it? I must have missed that, if that was the case. I thought he had it, dropped it, and then in WAT we learned he'd picked it up again, just before he dumped it on sigzil and got vaporized, and then by Sunlit man Sigzil has given it away and it's wherabouts were unknown. But I agree that it wouldn't work if he still holds it.

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

Sigzil also can't use sunhearts (or he couldn't for most of the book, including the portion where he cured his Torment.) He can only use the one, the rosharan sunheart, because he was from roshar. Therefore, Hoid would need a Yolish Sunheart, and no such thing exists as far as we know. To make one, he'd have to bring someone there and then leave them to die, which seems pretty out of line for Hoid's moral code. Plus, we have no idea what modern Yolen is like, so it may not even be possibe. Brandon has said the population of Yolen is so low you could count to it, so there may not be any targets suitable for kidnapping and sacrifice even if Hoid was willing. 

I forgot about the "Rosharan sunheart" thing. I only read Sunlit Man once, very fast. Thanks.

So Hoid could sacrifice Foil, or a Sho Del? Hmm ... anyone he had a personal grudge against when he lived on Yolen who isn't a dragon or Shard is presumably long dead. Has anyone asked Brandon whether Hoid has returned to Yolen since he left at the time of the Shattering?

[Jult]

14 hours ago, SteelBagel said:

Does hoid still have it? I must have missed that, if that was the case. I thought he had it, dropped it, and then in WAT we learned he'd picked it up again, just before he dumped it on sigzil and got vaporized, and then by Sunlit man Sigzil has given it away and it's wherabouts were unknown. But I agree that it wouldn't work if he still holds it.

Honestly, this might be a mistake on the Coppermind. On Hoid's page it says "Sigzil returned the Dawnshard to Hoid several decades later". But it cites Chapter 21 of Sunlit Man for that claim. And I'm skimming through that chapter right now and I don't see that info anywhere. It just says Sigzil gave it up.

Maybe it's stated somewhere else, and they just cited the wrong thing?

 

Edit: I guess it's sort of implied Hoid has it in Chapter 10 when Sigzil says the Night Brigade would find Hoid if they followed Sigzil's Connection to the Dawnshard. I still don't see anything that specifies Sigzil held it for decades before giving it back. Or anything that explicitly says Hoid still has it.

Edited July 8, 2025 by Jult

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

On 7/7/2025 at 8:47 AM, Jult said:

"You must not trust yourself with me. If I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen." - Wit to Dalinar; WoR chapter 67

I do think it’s worth noting that it’s quite different letting a large general population die than activity murdering a single person who can look you in the eyes. This is reflected with Hoid in WaT when he 

Spoiler

thinks about how he probably couldn’t have let Roshar burn after personally knowing the Kholins and their extended family

 

[Jult]

5 minutes ago, SpartanBrigade said:

I do think it’s worth noting that it’s quite different letting a large general population die than activity murdering a single person who can look you in the eyes. This is reflected with Hoid in WaT when he 

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thinks about how he probably couldn’t have let Roshar burn after personally knowing the Kholins and their extended family

 

This is gonna be my third negative post about Hoid, so let me note here that he's one of my favorite characters... But... Hoid's goals are huge. And one death isn't going to stop him. Brandon has actually said before that Hoid would be willing to kill for his goals:

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iBambam

Hoid says he would watch Roshar burn if it meant his goals were achieved. Would Hoid go so far as to kill to achieve these goals? Can you give a hint about what his goals are?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Hoid would kill--if he were able to make it happen--to achieve his goals. His goals are super secret. Some you would agree with. Some, maybe not.

General Signed Books 2016 (Feb. 1, 2016)