Shardic intents and the original vessels

[Erremin]

So I've had this theory, after I heard people talk about Rayse being very much about control, where his shard is more about emotions and Passion. Don't most of the original (so no later changes, such as Taravangian) have a similar thing where they don't really fit their Shardic Intent all that well?

Rayse-Odium:

Rayse is mentioned as being very crafty and calculating, which feels opposed to acting mostly on strong emotion.

Tanavast-Honor:

Tanavast has said himself he was not very well aligned with the intent of Honor

Ati-Ruin: 

Ati was very kind and caring, which doesn't feel like Ruin, even if you factor in that his influence likely made it more entropic than actual active ruin.

Bavadin-Autonomy:
All I'm saying is that Autonomy has her nose in a lot of planet's business, which doesn't feel like she likes autonomy all that much. 

Koravellium-Cultivation:
Koravellium also strikes me more as someone who supports change for it's own sake, rather than careful cultivation. 

Edgli- Endowment: 

Edgli feels very selfish towards anyone who isn't Nalthian, which seems opposed to her Shardic Intent.

 

So the theory is that the vessels were chosen for the Shards, not because they fit them well, but rather the opposite, because they didn't fit them well at all, which would make them all less powerful, rather than Vessel and Shard acting together. We know there was more flexibility directly after the Shattering, so the Connection of being basically opposed to the Intent of the Shard might have been enough. 

What do you all think?

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

I generally agree with this sentiment, although I think that Kora does fit with Cultivation pretty well. This also fits given what we know of Valor, who is hiding, seemingly against the Intent of the Shard. 

[Returned he/him]

Welcome to the Shard!

I like the idea for some Shards but less so for others. I think that Autonomy is dead-on in alignment: the Shard seeks Autonomy for itself, on the basis of conflicts between two differing wills being zero-sum, and so Bavadin has to get her way. She is and must be the most autonomous by her very nature, which necessitates limits on others' ability to be so independent, if only because they cannot be entirely independent of her should any disagreements arise. The Endowment example feels weak since her whole thing is about willingly giving power away and not simply giving power away all the time in all cases, even if she has the capacity to do so (which I think is debatable, but off-topic here). Cultivation prefers change to stasis but definitely works to guide change where she cares to intervene at all. I'm not sure we've seen anything from Cultivation that is change for change's sake, rather than something she interacts with and also tries to guide.

We don't know anything about the motivations of the people who participated in the Shattering, so it's unclear how much an individual shatterer's preferences mattered compared to the will of the group or any mechanical or philosophical requirements they had to meet. We do know that the Shattering was intentional, and that some of the participants were more actively motivated while others felt they had no other options to pursue. We don't know how well the shatterers understood what the effects of their actions would be or what holding a Shard would really be like, how well they'd be able to resist the Shards' influence, and similar issues. It seems unlikely (to me, at least) that the shatterers would have assumed they could oppose, forever, the Shards whose natures they defined. But I can't say I'd rule it out.

My imagined details of the Shattering and what followed are essentially that:

• There were constraints on what Shards (or combinations of Shards) could be created by the sixteen-way Shattering, meaning that not everyone could just get their ideal match (or ideally poor match, per your theory)
• The perceived need for the Shattering forced a lot of compromises on who would take up each Shard-- perhaps no one wanted to hold Ruin, for example, and so the kindest and most self-sacrificing shatterer did so because someone had to
• The shatterers were people and so could be deeply wrong about their abilities to match and integrate with Shards. For this I'm imagining Tanavast: Honor sounds great on paper, but it seems like holding that Shard was not what he expected. His descriptions did not sound, to me, like he had assumed a duty to specifically oppose what Honor was/wanted/represented
• The shatterers had perspectives that were inadequate to divinity prior to the Shattering and spent millennia discovering their mistakes. Rayse, per Frost's letter to Hoid, specifically wanted Odium and got his wish. But the pressure of a Shard's Intent appears to be incessant and powerful, and once the Vessel starts to lose ground in a struggle against it there seems to be a consistent, spiraling erosion of the Vessel's mind and will. I'm not sure that anything less than a perfect alignment of Shard and Vessel would ever produce any other result than Rayse or Ati experienced, with the major variable being how long it takes that degradation to become complete

Edited June 4, 2025 by Returned

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

41 minutes ago, Returned said:

Welcome to the Shard!

I like the idea for some Shards but less so for others. I think that Autonomy is dead-on in alignment: the Shard seeks Autonomy for itself, on the basis of conflicts between two differing wills being zero-sum, and so Bavadin has to get her way. She is and must be the most autonomous by her very nature, which necessitates limits on others' ability to be so independent, if only because they cannot be entirely independent of her should any disagreements arise. The Endowment example feels weak since her whole thing is about willingly giving power away and not simply giving power away all the time in all cases, even if she has the capacity to do so (which I think is debatable, but off-topic here). Cultivation prefers change to stasis but definitely works to guide change where she cares to intervene at all. I'm not sure we've seen anything from Cultivation that is change for change's sake, rather than something she interacts with and also tries to guide.

We don't know anything about the motivations of the people who participated in the Shattering, so it's unclear how much an individual shatterer's preferences mattered compared to the will of the group or any mechanical or philosophical requirements they had to meet. We do know that the Shattering was intentional, and that some of the participants were more actively motivated while others felt they had no other options to pursue. We don't know how well the shatterers understood what the effects of their actions would be or what holding a Shard would really be like, how well they'd be able to resist the Shards' influence, and similar issues. It seems unlikely (to me, at least) that the shatterers would have assumed they could oppose, forever, the Shards whose natures they defined. But I can't say I'd rule it out.

My imagined details of the Shattering and what followed are essentially that:

• There were constraints on what Shards (or combinations of Shards) could be created by the sixteen-way Shattering, meaning that not everyone could just get their ideal match (or ideally poor match, per your theory)
• The perceived need for the Shattering forced a lot of compromises on who would take up each Shard-- perhaps no one wanted to hold Ruin, for example, and so the kindest and most self-sacrificing shatterer did so because someone had to
• The shatterers were people and so could be deeply wrong about their abilities to match and integrate with Shards. For this I'm imagining Tanavast: Honor sounds great on paper, but it seems like holding that Shard was not what he expected. His descriptions did not sound, to me, like he had assumed a duty to specifically oppose what Honor was/wanted/represented
• The shatterers had perspectives that were inadequate to divinity prior to the Shattering and spent millennia discovering their mistakes. Rayse, per Frost's letter to Hoid, specifically wanted Odium and got his wish. But the pressure of a Shard's Intent appears to be incessant and powerful, and once the Vessel starts to lose ground in a struggle against it there seems to be a consistent, spiraling erosion of the Vessel's mind and will. I'm not sure that anything less than a perfect alignment of Shard and Vessel would ever produce any other result than Rayse or Ati experienced, with the major variable being how long it takes that degradation to become complete

I'm not sure if there's concrete evidence for this anywhere, but I got the impression that, knowing that Ruin was the most inherently "evil" Intent, Ati was chosen for it in order to attempt to hold it back as much as possible. Not sure if this was a consensus reached by the 16 or if Ati decided this himself. 

[Returned he/him]

15 minutes ago, Ashkaloda said:

I'm not sure if there's concrete evidence for this anywhere, but I got the impression that, knowing that Ruin was the most inherently "evil" Intent, Ati was chosen for it in order to attempt to hold it back as much as possible. Not sure if this was a consensus reached by the 16 or if Ati decided this himself. 

I don't know of any information about the motivations surrounding the Shattering aside from the brief comment in Secret History outlining that the participants had different motivations. I don't agree that Ruin is the most evil Intent, or inherently evil at all.

Hatred, existing in itself with no context, seems more evil to me as it's not a necessity of reality. Destruction, in the sense of things ending or breaking down towards entropy, doesn't have a moral component to it, so I don't see it as inherently evil or good. If we want to hold back something vicious by giving it to the coolest person I would think that Odium-Ati would be the pick.

I think that with the information we have we're way too far out in speculation to feel confident about the reasoning for any shatterer taking any Shard, save for Rayse whom we know wanted Odium from an in-text description (though I suppose it could be untrustworthy or incomplete, so we shouldn't be complacent). Any guesses we make are going to be circumstantial at best and pure fantasy projection at worst. That said, if you were assigning Shards to Vessels by committee, would you ever agree to let the Shard of hatred be taken by the person who badly wants that very Shard?

Not that my impressions are more valuable than anyone else's, of course. But my whole point is that there isn't evidence of much of anything about the Shattering because we've heard and seen almost nothing about it. In the absence of any information we can think of an unlimited number of things that could fit, if only because there isn't anything to confirm or contradict in the first place. Theorycrafting is fun, so assume away, but the sum of what we know of the Shattering is about a paragraph long and so any impressions or guesses we have are very tenuous bases for further supposition still.

That's where I'm coming from in theorycrafting, so if a discussion is premised on "assume this is true and then expand" I'm all in. But I'm stingy about buying into assumptions absent more solid evidence than "it's not obviously untrue and I feel like it is true", so bear that in mind when reading my responses (or just ignore me, which is also totally valid ).

 

[Jult]

34 minutes ago, Ashkaloda said:

I'm not sure if there's concrete evidence for this anywhere, but I got the impression that, knowing that Ruin was the most inherently "evil" Intent, Ati was chosen for it in order to attempt to hold it back as much as possible. Not sure if this was a consensus reached by the 16 or if Ati decided this himself. 

I had the same impression. I don't think that it's specifically stated in any one location, but it seems like a reasonable conclusion from the following:

WaT Chapter 115:

Quote

"ATI, PERHAPS THE KINDLIEST AMONG US, WHO HAD BOLDLY TAKEN UP RUIN..." - Tanavast

I interpreted this as confirmation that Ati took on the burden of Ruin for the sake of everyone else.. It also feels, to me, that it was Ati's decision - not one made by committee. Tanavast also describes Ati (amongst several other Vessels) as a hero in the same passage.

 

23 minutes ago, Returned said:

Destruction, in the sense of things ending or breaking down towards entropy, doesn't have a moral component to it, so I don't see it as inherently evil or good.

Ati's influence is the reason why Ruin primarily acted as 'entropic decay'. If Ruin had been given to a less kind Vessel, Ruin could have been 'pure chaotic obliteration'. Ati restrained Ruin to a more palatable interpretation of the Intent. WoB:

Quote

Alvaro Lopez

Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely.

General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018)

[Returned he/him]

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

I interpreted this as confirmation that Ati took on the burden of Ruin for the sake of everyone else.. It also feels, to me, that it was Ati's decision - not one made by committee. Tanavast also describes Ati (amongst several other Vessels) as a hero in the same passage.

Totally reasonable. I'll only note that there are any number of reasons that Ati might have taken up Ruin which could be described as bold.

42 minutes ago, Jult said:

Ati's influence is the reason why Ruin primarily acted as 'entropic decay'. If Ruin had been given to a less kind Vessel, Ruin could have been 'pure chaotic obliteration'. Ati restrained Ruin to a more palatable interpretation of the Intent.

I debated about including the entropy piece because I worried people would focus on that, and I think I made the wrong call in leaving it in. Ruin is destruction, not necessarily evil destruction-- a Cosmere with no Ruin in it might not be a better place, with every villain continuing to exist forever (as an example). Contrast with Preservation being impressed by the Lord Ruler because he changed so little for such a long time, despite being a... less-than-great person. Preservation, as the fundamental opposite to Ruin (which is explicitly presented and reinforced in-text) isn't fundamentally morally awesome any more than Ruin is fundamentally morally terrible. And Ruin itself is at its most lustfully destructive at the end of its independent existence, which is after everything Ati did to temper it to be more entropy-focused.

That's what I'd hoped to draw attention to: ruin has an inherent place in the Cosmere, even if it has some awful inflections such as atium making Allomancers so good at killing or the lust for savagery and murder shown by the inquisitors. Hatred, by contrast, isn't as fundamentally tied to physical realities in the same way-- even if we lean towards Odium as passion instead of just hatred, there is a viciousness towards others that we've seen in both Vessels.

That's the thing I'd rather temper with the kindest and most heroic of the shatterers, if that mitigation the only thing we're considering. If we're in harm-mitigation mode when assigning Vessels to Shards, allowing Rayse to take Odium seems insanely incompatible. Rayse was crafty, so maybe he deceived everyone or contrived to shunt Ati towards Ruin. But my main point is that the only actual example we have of a Vessel seeming specifically opposed to the Shard they took up is Ati. We can maybe toss Tanavast into that category as well, though I think it's premature to do so. I wouldn't describe any of the other original Vessels that way without already accepting the OP's (interesting!) theory, which in turn means that they aren't very good evidence of that theory being true. I could be convinced otherwise, but so far am not.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As a discussion question on the topic, how do people feel about the newer Vessels we see dealing with their Shards in comparison to the original Vessels? Are there similarities and differences in how we see them handle the Shards that are different from what we'd expect if the original Vessels were assigned for incompatibility, given that the new Vessels ascended opportunistically or by the designs of Shards with specific schemes?

• Rashek is described as succumbing to Preservation's influence very quickly (as described by Sazed, who notes that Rashek did not undo his bad choices in remaking Scadrial but preserved them instead and stacked more changes on top of them)
• Kelsier is a bad fit for Preservation specifically because he's too ruinous and so can barely hold it even for a brief period. Interestingly, he seems incapable of overwhelming Preservation despite being so strong-willed in basically every other scenario he encounters
• Vin overwhelms Preservation to at least some degree when she attacks Ruin, ultimately killing Ati and destroying herself
• Sazed is still very mysterious for RAFO reasons, and obviously has to balance two Shards, but he doesn't seem to be doing an amazing job of controlling his Shards and their balance (though I have a pet theory that he actually is doing this, and cleverly, but in a way that's doomed to fail. Off-topic here!)
• Taravangian has the same issues as Sazed plus more, since Honor is now more self-directed than Shards normally are. But he seems to be trying to influence his Shards through appeasement rather than strict opposition, even as he works to bend those Shards towards his own purposes and away from their preferences

Edited June 4, 2025 by Returned

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

40 minutes ago, Returned said:

Totally reasonable. I'll only note that there are any number of reasons that Ati might have taken up Ruin which could be described as bold.

I debated about including the entropy piece because I worried people would focus on that, and I think I made the wrong call in leaving it in. Ruin is destruction, not necessarily evil destruction-- a Cosmere with no Ruin in it might not be a better place, with every villain continuing to exist forever (as an example). Contrast with Preservation being impressed by the Lord Ruler because he changed so little for such a long time, despite being a... less-than-great person. Preservation, as the fundamental opposite to Ruin (which is explicitly presented and reinforced in-text) isn't fundamentally morally awesome any more than Ruin is fundamentally morally terrible. And Ruin itself is at its most lustfully destructive at the end of its independent existence, which is after everything Ati did to temper it to be more entropy-focused.

That's what I'd hoped to draw attention to: ruin has an inherent place in the Cosmere, even if it has some awful inflections such as atium making Allomancers so good at killing or the lust for savagery and murder shown by the inquisitors. Hatred, by contrast, isn't as fundamentally tied to physical realities in the same way-- even if we lean towards Odium as passion instead of just hatred, there is a viciousness towards others that we've seen in both Vessels.

That's the thing I'd rather temper with the kindest and most heroic of the shatterers, if that mitigation the only thing we're considering. If we're in harm-mitigation mode when assigning Vessels to Shards, allowing Rayse to take Odium seems insanely incompatible. Rayse was crafty, so maybe he deceived everyone or contrived to shunt Ati towards Ruin. But my main point is that the only actual example we have of a Vessel seeming specifically opposed to the Shard they took up is Ati. We can maybe toss Tanavast into that category as well, though I think it's premature to do so. I wouldn't describe any of the other original Vessels that way without already accepting the OP's (interesting!) theory, which in turn means that they aren't very good evidence of that theory being true. I could be convinced otherwise, but so far am not.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

As a discussion question on the topic, how do people feel about the newer Vessels we see dealing with their Shards in comparison to the original Vessels? Are there similarities and differences in how we see them handle the Shards that are different from what we'd expect if the original Vessels were assigned for incompatibility, given that the new Vessels ascended opportunistically or by the designs of Shards with specific schemes?

• Rashek is described as succumbing to Preservation's influence very quickly (as described by Sazed, who notes that Rashek did not undo his bad choices in remaking Scadrial but preserved them instead and stacked more changes on top of them)
• Kelsier is a bad fit for Preservation specifically because he's too ruinous and so can barely hold it even for a brief period. Interestingly, he seems incapable of overwhelming Preservation despite being so strong-willed in basically every other scenario he encounters
• Vin overwhelms Preservation to at least some degree when she attacks Ruin, ultimately killing Ati and destroying herself
• Sazed is still very mysterious for RAFO reasons, and obviously has to balance two Shards, but he doesn't seem to be doing an amazing job of controlling his Shards and their balance (though I have a pet theory that he actually is doing this, and cleverly, but in a way that's doomed to fail. Off-topic here!)
• Taravangian has the same issues as Sazed plus more, since Honor is now more self-directed than Shards normally are. But he seems to be trying to influence his Shards through appeasement rather than strict opposition, even as he works to bend those Shards towards his own purposes and away from their preferences

What I said was likely confusing. I did not mean to say that Ruin was an evil Intent, only that when looking at the 16 Intents on the surface level, Ruin likely would have appeared the evilest to the 16 original Shardholders. 

Based on what we see Tanavast do, I think it is definitely fair to say he is not well suited towards Honor, and many others could have fit the Intent better (I'm thinking of Edgli right now). 

Edited June 4, 2025 by Ashkaloda
spacing

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

5 hours ago, Erremin said:

Ati-Ruin: 

Ati was very kind and caring, which doesn't feel like Ruin, even if you factor in that his influence likely made it more entropic than actual active ruin.

I heard this somewhere, forgot where, but Ati had been through a lot pre-shattering and had learned to accept the end was sometimes inevitable. This allowed his to take Ruin, the same thing that allowed Sazed. Elend said so in Secret History.

[Returned he/him]

2 hours ago, Ashkaloda said:

What I said was likely confusing. I did not mean to say that Ruin was an evil Intent, only that when looking at the 16 Intents on the surface level, Ruin likely would have appeared the evilest to the 16 original Shardholders. 

Based on what we see Tanavast do, I think it is definitely fair to say he is not well suited towards Honor, and many others could have fit the Intent better (I'm thinking of Edgli right now). 

I think you expressed yourself well and I was the one who was unclear! What I wanted to convey was that a set of options which included Odium would suggest that Odium is the worst/most in need of control, as hatred seems less fundamentally necessary and inert than does ruin/destruction. Of course it's a big assumption that the way we view the Shards at this point in the Cosmere is how the shatterers viewed it. The shatterers might have known about the Shards they were creating but not necessarily the true goals and intentions of their companions. Or they might have been strongly opposed to Rayse and his ambitions but didn't have the leverage to exclude him or make him take up a different Shard.

Especially given that we know basically nothing about the events and motivations surrounding the Shattering I don't think we can  parse the shatterers' suitability for the Shards they took with much precision. Most of the Shardholders we see seem to be pretty debased compared to their ambitions, even the relatively recently-ascended Sazed.

[Jult]

13 minutes ago, Returned said:

I debated about including the entropy piece because I worried people would focus on that, and I think I made the wrong call in leaving it in. Ruin is destruction, not necessarily evil destruction

Agreed. I would not call Ruin (or any Shard) inherently evil. All of the Shards are neutral constants and any kind of morality that we see them exhibit is more closely related to the Vessel than the Shard (Honor is maybe becoming an exception to this rule, but that's a whole other topic)..

I would say Ruin feels inherently more dangerous than Odium. And that the Cosmere was very lucky Ati is the one who picked Ruin up. But that's a matter of opinion.

____________________________________________________________________________

As for the OP's original post, according to Brandon, some Vessels intentionally chose Shards that they felt they would have more control over:

Quote

senjox

We've seen in both Secret History and RoW that a Shard's power has a will of its own and can "reject" a vessel if it's not adequate (like Preservation with Kelsier) and "tempt" if it is (like Odium with Taravangian). Does that mean that the first sixteen that Ascended needed to be fit for their respective shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. To an extent, yes. It was a little easier back then, but yes.

*Thinks for a while*

Yes. So, why am I hesitating on this? Not all of the sixteen could've taken any one of the sixteen. So not all the Vessels could take any of the sixteen. But the flexibility of which ones they could've taken, was much greater than you're perhaps anticipating right now. There were certain Shards that they had, they deliberately had a person pick up, that they thought would be a better controller of that Shard, if that makes sense. Rather than picking the person who is the best match. So, there you go.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

I'd wager that choosing a Shard that does not particularly align with your personal interests is probably a good strategy for keeping your own thoughts and feelings distinct from the Shard's influence. Although you can't pick up one that you are 100% out of sync with because the Shard would reject you.

[Returned he/him]

Great find on that WoB, @Jult! I'd never seen it before, or else I had and forgot.

@Erremin, does that affect any of your thoughts about which Vessels wound up with each Shard? Since one of the few things we know about Rayse is his crafty, calculating nature, I would imagine he's the shatterer most likely to choose the Shard he ended up with. Given that we know he wasn't controlling Odium well by Stormlight, do you have any thoughts about how he might have wound up in that position?

[Erremin]

Yeah I'd say my showerthought theory has been pretty thoroughly disproven, but I still think there are some that chose to do it this way, even though Rayse, and some others, probably picked the shards they felt fit them the best

[Jult]

39 minutes ago, Erremin said:

Yeah I'd say my showerthought theory has been pretty thoroughly disproven, but I still think there are some that chose to do it this way, even though Rayse, and some others, probably picked the shards they felt fit them the best

I'd say only partially disproven. I think you've gotten us onto a pretty interesting discussion of who did prioritize control over alignment when choosing their Shard. Plus, I have lots of new questions about the original Vessels.

One thing that stood out to me while digging into this is the group of Vessels that Tanavast chose to reach out to for help. I already partially posted this passage, but the whole thing reads:

Quote

I REACHED OUT TO THE OTHERS FOR HELP. THE STRONG ONES, THE ONES SMARTER THAN I. THE HEROES. LERAS, KNOWN AS PRESERVATION, WHO ALWAYS HAD SUCH A STRONG NATURE. ATI, PERHAPS THE KINDLIEST AMONG US, WHO HAD BOLDLY TAKEN UP RUIN. EDGLI, ENDOWMENT, WHO WAS THE MOST COMPASSIONATE WOMAN I HAD EVER KNOWN. BAVADIN, SHREWD AND CAPABLE. CHAN KO SAR, INVENTION, WHO TRAVELED THE COSMERE CREATING GREAT MARVELS.

A couple paragraphs later, Tanavast also reaches out to "Valor, the great dragon god Medelantorius - as she was a warrior who would surely join me".

It's not completely clear to me if Tanavast is referring to all 6 of the vessels in the first passage as "heroes". Or if he's saying "some are strong, others are smart, and others are heroes". I read it as all 6 of them being heroes, which is a word I never would have associated with Bavadin before this book.

What we've seen of these Vessels in recent history seems very different from how Tanavast remembers them. Leras was not strong anymore, Ati was no longer kind, and Edgli doesn't seem compassionate. Valor, from what we know, has also not been acting like a warrior. Although I have a personal theory that the current Vessel of Valor is not Medelantorius. I think that Shard changed hands already.

It also may be worth noting that Tanavast seemingly did not try reaching out to Whimsy or Mercy (or at least didn't mention them).

[Nitpicking]

10 hours ago, Jult said:

Although I have a personal theory that the current Vessel of Valor is not Medelantorius. I think that Shard changed hands already.

Did you watch/listen to the most recent Shardcast? Brandon seems to say that Valor is still the dragon who SPOILER

Spoiler

dated Hoid.

 

[Jult]

On 6/6/2025 at 9:24 PM, Nitpicking said:

Did you watch/listen to the most recent Shardcast? Brandon seems to say that Valor is still the dragon who SPOILER

  Hide contents

dated Hoid.

 

I have now. I think all he really confirmed is that these two WoBs are referring to the same person (Medelantorius). Spoilered for length:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Is Hoid secretly a dragon?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid is not secretly a dragon, but he did date one once.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

Quote

Questioner

Wit's dated a dragon; has Wit also dated a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Wit has dated someone who wasn't a Shard at the point, but at some point in the future became a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

What Brandon said on the Shardcast might be confirmation that Medelantorius is still Valor. But I'm not so sure. For the record, I'm not married to the idea of Valor having a new Vessel. My only reason for thinking Medelantorius is no longer a Vessel is one small WoB:

Quote

Vetterlinj

Is there more than 1 dragon amongst the Shards? If so, how many are there?

Brandon Sanderson

Only 1 dragon right now as a Shard.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

^In my mind, that 1 dragon would have to be Koravellium. Which would mean Medelantorius must have either died or willingly passed on Valor. That WoB is 4 years old now though. So, it's possible Brandon just didn't know he'd include a second dragon amongst the Vessels back when he said it.