[WaT] Shallan and Forgery Theory?

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

I am starting to be convinced that Shallan's personalities go beyond regular DID. Her condition is supernatural in nature due to her mother being a Herald, as we see her other (full) siblings manifesting other symptoms of heraldic madness as well.

Veil seems to be a little too good at espionage, street life experience, etc. to just be the integration of Tyn's training over that short period of time. People have theorized that maybe Shallan was actually trained as a child by the Ghostbloods or her Mother or something and that she channels those memories/lessons through Veil, but I don't think that makes sense since she has already (sort of) reintegrated with Veil. 

It actually is quite similar to what Shai does with her soul stamps - she rewrites her spirit web in a way that gives her memories and experience that she doesn't actually have, making her an expert at one thing or another. It fools her body/soul into believing it has lived a different life and it manifests that phyically, mentally, etc. 

We also see Shallan 'be Drehy' and suck in the stormlight that he lashed her with in WaT. This is wild. Because he did the lashing, only he should be able to draw that stormlight in. It's tied to his identity.

Does Shallan have the ability to rewrite her own spirit web, even to the point of altering her Identity (capital I)? Is this basically the same as being able to soul stamp herself through her own cognition/thinking? Or is this perhaps more similar to what Vasher and other Returned do by using mental gymnastics to control their appearance based on how they view themselves? 

It could also be explained that way - that perhaps Shallan (as a child of a cognitive shadow) also has a special connection to investiture and the other realms that lets her alter herself mentally/physically/spiritually?

[Treamayne]

On 5/23/2025 at 1:10 PM, CognitiveShadow said:

We also see Shallan 'be Drehy' and suck in the stormlight that he lashed her with in WaT. This is wild. Because he did the lashing, only he should be able to draw that stormlight in. It's tied to his identity.

Keep in mind that way back in Oathbringer Ch 89, she had the chance to experience Drehy's Cogntive aspect (and with her Mnemonic abilities. . . )

Spoiler

Living souls bobbed around, a swarm of them entering the Oathgate control chamber. One brushed Shallan. Drehy the bridgeman. For a brief moment she felt what it was like to be him. Worried for Kaladin. Panicked that nobody was in charge, that he would have to take command. He wasn’t a commander. You couldn’t be a rebel if you were in charge. He liked being told what to do—that way he could find a method to do it with style.

Drehy’s worries caused her own to bubble up. The bridgemen’s powers will fade without Kaladin, she thought. What of Vathah, Red, and Ishnah? I didn’t—

It's likely she could not have done that with a lashing from any other Windrunner. . . 

That said, I don't think her aspects have ever been normal DID. In RoW Veil implies that her personality has been in place since childhood (and was not new after arriving at the Warcamps in WoR - that's just when Shallan started attaching a visual illusion to the personality). 

It's possible that part of Shallan's experience is at least based on the same core Realmatics as Forgery - since we already know so many similar MoIs that are different but based on the same fundamentals (Yolish Lightweaving vs. Selish Lightweaving vs. Rosharan Lightweaving; Rosharan Elsecalling vs Selish Elsecalling; the multiple forms of Midnight [Essence, Spore, Nightmare, etc.] etc.)

Edited June 2, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I could see there being a bit of this, but isn't important in Kholinar that Veil doesn't have the experience she pretends she does?

[Nitpicking]

A major theme of the Cosmere is that different types of Invested Art can produce similar effects in different ways, as with the Midnight Essence coming from Nightblood, an Aether, the Midnight Mother ....

I don't see why a Lightweaver couldn't produce Soulstamp-like effects.

[QuantumAce]

On 5/26/2025 at 3:00 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I could see there being a bit of this, but isn't important in Kholinar that Veil doesn't have the experience she pretends she does?

Yes, her actual ability level falls short of Veils ideal, but still seems higher than can be explained by just a separate persona. Lightweaving can fill some gaps, but I wouldnt be surprised if there were other less direct magical forces involved. There is definitely room to work another layer in if it benefits the story. 

On 5/26/2025 at 4:21 PM, Nitpicking said:

A major theme of the Cosmere is that different types of Invested Art can produce similar effects in different ways, as with the Midnight Essence coming from Nightblood, an Aether, the Midnight Mother ....

I don't see why a Lightweaver couldn't produce Soulstamp-like effects.

When you include soul casting, Lightweaving could lead to some pretty crazy possibilities. 

[Returned he/him]

On 5/28/2025 at 1:46 PM, QuantumAce said:

Yes, her actual ability level falls short of Veils ideal, but still seems higher than can be explained by just a separate persona. Lightweaving can fill some gaps, but I wouldnt be surprised if there were other less direct magical forces involved. There is definitely room to work another layer in if it benefits the story. 

Honestly, I don't think that Veil is all that impressive in terms of how well she lived up to what she claimed to be or tried to be, or even at espionage in general. Most of the schemes we see her hatch are things that a person could learn from reading a handful of adventure stories which involve lightweight spying and con jobs. Case in point: everything we see Veil do is inherently something that we have read in a novel, and Veil's activities pale in comparison to what you'd find in a Ludlum or le Carré story. And Shallan is certainly a reader!

We don't know all of the specifics she learned from Tyn but presumably it was a good amount, and Shallan seemed to value those lessons quite a bit. Shallan also learned a lot of social maneuvering and politicking (of a specific variety, maybe) from her landed-noble/horrifying upbringing. Those skills, plus her natural intelligence and charisma, took her a long way (dealing with Jasnah, Amaram's compound, and early interactions with Mraize). Shallan's major issue seems like it was inaction, at least prior to where her story begins in WoK, but we have almost no reliable information on her childhood so who knows what the truth is? That's the big, practical thing Veil did for her: Veil was definitely willing to act.

Where Veil tended to do the most poorly was due to some combination of inattention and lack of imagination. Veil's plot to find the spy among the Unseen Court while in Shadesmar was pretty entry-level, and it didn't even work. Her Swiftspren gallivanting assumed she knew enough about street life, gangs, and situations like Kholinar's to manipulate events to her advantage, but she totally missed a lot of the most significant features of all of those. The actual experience she gained in those (mis)adventures would certainly help her do that kind of work better in the future, but assuming she had the experience when she did not both directly hampered her and probably prevented her from thinking things through as much as Shallan would have (and to better results).

Veil is worse at what she does than Shallan would be because she trades most of Shallan's actual strengths for experience that Veil trusts implicitly yet doesn't actually have. That's my assessment, at least. OP (or anyone else who disagrees), could you elaborate on where you feel Veil's skills really shine, especially to the point of being inexplicably good?

Edited May 29, 2025 by Returned