Theory about Odium, the Hierocracy and the consequences for modern Vorinism and beyond

[Nieriel]

Alright so I actually have a huge theory about the Hierocracy and Vorinism. This is a bit of an explanation so bear with me. 

There are a few big things that happened surrounding the Hierocracy. Namely we have the ardents taking power and claiming to have visions and prophecies (identified as voidbinding by modern ardents) and the destruction of almost all pre-Hierocracy records. We also know that the Hierocracy took place after both the death of Honour and the Recreance.

Let’s start with the first part. We know that voidbinding is associated with seeing the future and that seeing the future "Not always. But usually." (WOB Oct 22, 2018 Skyward Pre-Release) originates with the Unmade. The Unmade are direct creations of Odium, that much was revealed in WaT. So, it seems entirely possible that the ardentia were being influenced by the Unmade. Were they actually voidbinding? Unclear, but some amount of futuresight seems to be in play.

But why? Because Odium was actually behind the Hierocracy.

Here is where we come to the destruction of pre-Hierocracy records. So Rayse was never known for being subtle and as such likely took a direct approach when it came to taking power. With Honour, as the presumed entity originally referred to as the Almighty, dead, Odium could take on that mantle and mold Vorinism to his own purposes. In order to do this however, he needed to erase any conflicting literature that stated the original intents and teachings of Vorinism. The current teachings of Vorinism involve a few important points of note: 

1. the highest calling is that of a warrior
2. after death mankind will go to fight to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls in the War for Heaven

So, if Odium is now in control of Vorinism, then what does he gain by having a skilled force of soldiers? Well, I think it can be pretty apparent that fighting to regain the Tranquiline Halls can be equated with the battle for control of the Cosmere, especially considering Odium's wish for Dalinar to lead his supposed armies, as expressed in RoW and WaT. At this point though I still wondered why Odium pushed so hard for Vorin people to fight each other and become super capable soldiers and why do so for so many years? What is the point if people die and then have their souls go to the beyond? He would have a pretty limited, albeit capable, force but that just doesn’t seem worth it. But what if fighting in the battle for the Tranquiline Halls is not a metaphor? What if it is literal?

We saw Taravangian as the new Odium do some really interesing things involving the spiritual realm in WaT. The first one I want to draw attention to is the razing of physical Khabranth at the same time as the souls of the Khabranthian people were pulled into a pocket of the spiritual realm to continue to "live". The second is pulling a version of the Blackthorn from Dalinar's past using the spiritual realm in order to have him as a General for his forces. Both times Taravangian uses Connections to these people in order to manipulate their souls in the spiritual realm for his own purposes. If Odium took over Vorinism, then through the worship from whole kingdoms he is forging Connections with vast numbers of people. With the constant fighting encouraged in various ways such as the religious calling of becoming a warrior being so highly praised, use of the Thrill to encourage combat and possibly others, Odium then assures a large number of very skilled fighting men. Then upon their death, Odium can use his Connection to them to pull them into a pocket of the spiritual realm to be kept as a fighting force. We know he can manipulate the spiritual realm in ways such as manipulating the environment to recreate Khabranth or manipulating time to allow Gavinor to age to his 20's while the physical realm only experiences a few hours so why not a divine training ground where his vast elite force can continue to hone their skill until they are needed? 

Now a fighting force in the spiritual realm is only so useful you might say. But what beings, that Odium has voiced he wants destroyed, exist mostly in the spiritual realm? That's right. The other shards. We know Odium has been trapped on Roshar but can send agents to other places in the Cosmere on his behalf (Hoid in RoW says this would be his plan if the humans win the contest of champions). We know that it would be dangerous for Odium to directly attack the other shards himself and that he can be hurt whilst doing so, but if he were to send others to attack in his stead, then he would theoretically mitigate these risks. Of course, the shards are immensely powerful and destroying them would be no simple feat, but that is why Odium has needed to spend so many years collecting warriors. He needs a force large enough to withstand the losses that engaging a shard will incur. Shardbearers can't hold ground. Given enough overwhelming numbers they can be brought down by common soldiers and I think this is the principal Odium is operating under. Destroy the other shards by sheer overwhelming number of spiritual forces lead by a brilliant and deadly general. Put the Blackthorn at the head of the army, point him in the direction of the problem and watch him turn an impossible situation into a winnable battle.

 

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

3 hours ago, Nieriel said:

Alright so I actually have a huge theory about the Hierocracy and Vorinism. This is a bit of an explanation so bear with me. 

There are a few big things that happened surrounding the Hierocracy. Namely we have the ardents taking power and claiming to have visions and prophecies (identified as voidbinding by modern ardents) and the destruction of almost all pre-Hierocracy records. We also know that the Hierocracy took place after both the death of Honour and the Recreance.

Let’s start with the first part. We know that voidbinding is associated with seeing the future and that seeing the future "Not always. But usually." (WOB Oct 22, 2018 Skyward Pre-Release) originates with the Unmade. The Unmade are direct creations of Odium, that much was revealed in WaT. So, it seems entirely possible that the ardentia were being influenced by the Unmade. Were they actually voidbinding? Unclear, but some amount of futuresight seems to be in play.

But why? Because Odium was actually behind the Hierocracy.

Here is where we come to the destruction of pre-Hierocracy records. So Rayse was never known for being subtle and as such likely took a direct approach when it came to taking power. With Honour, as the presumed entity originally referred to as the Almighty, dead, Odium could take on that mantle and mold Vorinism to his own purposes. In order to do this however, he needed to erase any conflicting literature that stated the original intents and teachings of Vorinism. The current teachings of Vorinism involve a few important points of note: 

1. the highest calling is that of a warrior
2. after death mankind will go to fight to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls in the War for Heaven

So, if Odium is now in control of Vorinism, then what does he gain by having a skilled force of soldiers? Well, I think it can be pretty apparent that fighting to regain the Tranquiline Halls can be equated with the battle for control of the Cosmere, especially considering Odium's wish for Dalinar to lead his supposed armies, as expressed in RoW and WaT. At this point though I still wondered why Odium pushed so hard for Vorin people to fight each other and become super capable soldiers and why do so for so many years? What is the point if people die and then have their souls go to the beyond? He would have a pretty limited, albeit capable, force but that just doesn’t seem worth it. But what if fighting in the battle for the Tranquiline Halls is not a metaphor? What if it is literal?

We saw Taravangian as the new Odium do some really interesing things involving the spiritual realm in WaT. The first one I want to draw attention to is the razing of physical Khabranth at the same time as the souls of the Khabranthian people were pulled into a pocket of the spiritual realm to continue to "live". The second is pulling a version of the Blackthorn from Dalinar's past using the spiritual realm in order to have him as a General for his forces. Both times Taravangian uses Connections to these people in order to manipulate their souls in the spiritual realm for his own purposes. If Odium took over Vorinism, then through the worship from whole kingdoms he is forging Connections with vast numbers of people. With the constant fighting encouraged in various ways such as the religious calling of becoming a warrior being so highly praised, use of the Thrill to encourage combat and possibly others, Odium then assures a large number of very skilled fighting men. Then upon their death, Odium can use his Connection to them to pull them into a pocket of the spiritual realm to be kept as a fighting force. We know he can manipulate the spiritual realm in ways such as manipulating the environment to recreate Khabranth or manipulating time to allow Gavinor to age to his 20's while the physical realm only experiences a few hours so why not a divine training ground where his vast elite force can continue to hone their skill until they are needed? 

Now a fighting force in the spiritual realm is only so useful you might say. But what beings, that Odium has voiced he wants destroyed, exist mostly in the spiritual realm? That's right. The other shards. We know Odium has been trapped on Roshar but can send agents to other places in the Cosmere on his behalf (Hoid in RoW says this would be his plan if the humans win the contest of champions). We know that it would be dangerous for Odium to directly attack the other shards himself and that he can be hurt whilst doing so, but if he were to send others to attack in his stead, then he would theoretically mitigate these risks. Of course, the shards are immensely powerful and destroying them would be no simple feat, but that is why Odium has needed to spend so many years collecting warriors. He needs a force large enough to withstand the losses that engaging a shard will incur. Shardbearers can't hold ground. Given enough overwhelming numbers they can be brought down by common soldiers and I think this is the principal Odium is operating under. Destroy the other shards by sheer overwhelming number of spiritual forces lead by a brilliant and deadly general. Put the Blackthorn at the head of the army, point him in the direction of the problem and watch him turn an impossible situation into a winnable battle.

 

I can see this being true. I can also see the Almighty being an Avatar of Autonomy all along.

[Nieriel]

I can see the possibility of an avatar of Autonomy, but I also feel like one of the local shards or even Hoid would have mentioned the influence of another shard in the system. I would at least imagine hints of an outside influence other than Odium would be mentioned in the epigraphs if nothing else. Its not like Vorinism is new and that means Autonomy would have had an avatar here for thousands of years already who has just gone completely unnoticed.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

4 minutes ago, Nieriel said:

I can see the possibility of an avatar of Autonomy, but I also feel like one of the local shards or even Hoid would have mentioned the influence of another shard in the system. I would at least imagine hints of an outside influence other than Odium would be mentioned in the epigraphs if nothing else. Its not like Vorinism is new and that means Autonomy would have had an avatar here for thousands of years already who has just gone completely unnoticed.

Well, the same happened to Trelagism, except it was only at most 2,000 years since then and Era 2... so maybe?

[Nieriel]

You've got a point there, it wasn't till era 2 that we found out so it leaves room for possibility here for sure.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

A fighting force in the SR could not attack a Shard. Shards are large beings of sentient Investiture, much like we are beings of sentient matter. It is true that most of their Investiture coalesces in the SR. However, you can't attack it. If you tried to stab Stormlight, what would it do? Nothing. Investiture may be moved or rearranged, but that would not hurt a Shard as they are nearly entirely fluid, and it doesn't really matter what shape their Investiture is in as long as it is there. The only ways to accomplish this with a large force would be to: 

a) Use Investiture to attack it. 

b) Slowly siphon Investiture away from it using aluminum, similar to a traditional splintering. 

c) Convert all of the Investiture into matter or energy. 

These would all be easily counterable by the Shard, and would not bring any advantage having trained soldiers rather than untrained soldiers. 

However, I believe the forces Retribution sends out will be to attack the people on the Physical/Cognitive Realms, not in the SR. I can definitely see him taking control of Vorinism, except for the fact that Hoid says he apparently drew his attention away from Roshar and went into hiding, ceasing interaction with planet due to assuming it secured. 

[Qianweilian He/him]

6 hours ago, Nieriel said:

it wasn't till era 2 that we found out so it leaves room for possibility here for sure.

But we never really had that many viewpoints or conversations from people knowledgable about this sort of this in era 1. Ati was directly antagonistic, Leras was pretty much dead, Hoid really only acted as an informant to Kelsier, and we never really spent that much time with Ascended Vin or Sazed. In Stormlight, we have multiple worldhoppers, including Hoid, openly discussing mechanics of the cosmere and investiture in addition to having native Rosharans educated in this. In the Final Empire, none of that existed, except maybe a little bit of discussion around the obligators running Hathsin.

[Jult]

9 hours ago, Nieriel said:

You've got a point there, it wasn't till era 2 that we found out so it leaves room for possibility here for sure.

Shu-Dereth on Sel (a heavily-implied but unconfirmed Autonomy front) has been around for 300-400 years on Sel. Which may not sound like much time, but the Dor seems to cause some manner of time dilation on Sel relative to the rest of the Cosmere. So, from the rest of the Cosmere's perspective, that scheme has also been in-progress for a long time. I made this argument recently in another topic, but the Hierocracy does feel very much like Autonomy's MO.

That being said, I think the rest of your theory works with or without Taravangian taking over Vorinism. He already has Connections to most of the strong fighters on the planet since all Radiants (except Lift) are Connected to Honor and all Fused are Connected to Odium. Giving all of his soldiers the 'Gavinor treatment' might be the best way for him to deal with the time crunch that he's on now thanks to Dalinar.

[KaladinsSenseOfHumourSpren He/Him]

1 hour ago, Jult said:

Shu-Dereth on Sel (a heavily-implied but unconfirmed Autonomy front) has been around for 300-400 years on Sel. Which may not sound like much time, but the Dor seems to cause some manner of time dilation on Sel relative to the rest of the Cosmere. So, from the rest of the Cosmere's perspective, that scheme has also been in-progress for a long time. I made this argument recently in another topic, but the Hierocracy does feel very much like Autonomy's MO.

That being said, I think the rest of your theory works with or without Taravangian taking over Vorinism. He already has Connections to most of the strong fighters on the planet since all Radiants (except Lift) are Connected to Honor and all Fused are Connected to Odium. Giving all of his soldiers the 'Gavinor treatment' might be the best way for him to deal with the time crunch that he's on now thanks to Dalinar.

Lift is still somewhat of Honour. She has said Words.

[Nieriel]

55 minutes ago, Jult said:

That being said, I think the rest of your theory works with or without Taravangian taking over Vorinism. He already has Connections to most of the strong fighters on the planet since all Radiants (except Lift) are Connected to Honor and all Fused are Connected to Odium.

So my theory focuses more on Rayse's plan and the fact that RayseOdium wouldn't have had those Connections and would have needed to form them. Whether or not Taravangian continues in this vein is heavily up for debate as he seems to have built his own plan, possibly using Rayse's plan as a foundation. I agree that Taravangian would not have needed to work so hard to become Connected though.

[Nitpicking]

I can argue that the Radiants are no longer connected to Honor, because the second Oathpact protected the spren from Retribution. The Fused are still screwed, though.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

11 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I can argue that the Radiants are no longer connected to Honor, because the second Oathpact protected the spren from Retribution. The Fused are still screwed, though.

The Radiants are definitely still Connected to Honor. You can Connect with a Shard simply by aligning with its Intent, so by using Honor's magic and swearing oaths, they should be solidly Connected. The Oathpact actually utilises that Connection with Honor and Odium to bind Retribution and protect the spren. 

 

p.s. My 100th post! 

Edited May 22, 2025 by Ashkaloda

[Nitpicking]

I didn't say it very clearly. My point was that the Radiant spren are protected from Retribution, so Radiants should be, too, because that's a very strong Connection.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 5/20/2025 at 10:03 PM, Nieriel said:

The first one I want to draw attention to is the razing of physical Khabranth at the same time as the souls of the Khabranthian people were pulled into a pocket of the spiritual realm to continue to "live".

My understanding is he pulled them in physically, if you go back to the interlude it mentions him summoning his power to do something that brings him "peace" before the wave hits.

Spoiler

He steeled himself, observing her panic and pain for her followers who would be consumed. She could not watch. She turned away, which gave him peace, and let him summon his power.

Then Odium, God of Passions, destroyed Kharbranth entirely—the one city he'd bargained all his mortal life to protect.

That aside, I think Odium/Unmade being behind the Hierocracy is pretty plausible, you make some good connections here. I'm not convinced the spirits of the dead would pose a danger to Shards, though—Ambition and Odium annihilated entire planets in their clash, and Odium still had a lot of juice left in his tank afterward. But forging the Vorin nations into a base for his physical armies would still provide value. Just look at how the western half of Roshar viewed them before they had Surgebinding.

[Nieriel]

12 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I had thought he pulled them in spiritually, but I will keep an open mind about it when I do my WaT reread soon.

 

  Hide contents

 

I'm not convinced the spirits of the dead would pose a danger to Shards, though—Ambition and Odium annihilated entire planets in their clash, and Odium still had a lot of juice left in his tank afterward.

Between your response and others I can see that I took this perhaps a step to far and underestimated the power of the Shards. I do still think that the Vorin nations have significant value as an army though, especially if Odium has been picking the best fighters for later use since the Hierocracy. I definitely still think this army will play a significant role in cosmere wide events.