A Fourth... Everything?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

A Sea* spren fits with the Essences. If you look at them carefully, you'll notice they come in pairs:

• Zephyr and Vapor
• Spark and Lucentia
• Blood and Tallow
• Foil and Talus
• Sinew and Pulp

These could very well come from gas (Wind), light (Night, or reaction against Night since she wasn't very liked), liquid (Sea*), solid (Stone), and above them all life (Adonalsium).

Side note: Outside the last group, these can be broken down into an "opaque" and a "transparent" version. Echoes of Pull and Push?

To play devil's advocate against myself, though: if you favor Day* you could argue they're light and Night is liquid (hence Cryptics and inkspren being dark, and perhaps related to midnight aether's blood connection).

There's also what the singer who worships the Origin of Songs tells Dalinar (W&T chapter 43):

Spoiler

"Adonalsium," the femalen singer agreed, still working. "Will come back for us. Until then, we have the Wind, the Stone, the spren. The life of trees and light of day. That is what we should worship."

(Though to devil's advocate the devil's advocate, we only hear about "light of day" once we stop hearing about Night.)

So for now I'm undecided on which of the two it is, but I do think it's one of them.

On 4/28/2025 at 4:09 PM, Ashkaloda said:

Going against this is that the Wind mentions the Stone and Night, but not any others which I feel that it would have there. 

I don't think the Wind does mention the Night, does she? The Sibling and Syl do, but from what I can find she only references the Stones. Her other sibling(s) just aren't ever really relevant.

On 4/29/2025 at 9:43 AM, Jult said:

But I guess it could be possible that Honor, Cultivation, and Odium appropriated existing tones that were always part of the planet (someone please let me know if there's text anywhere that supports/contradicts this)? If that's true, then we're back to Adonalsium using fours in Roshar's construction and I'm not completely dead in the water.

The weird thing about that line is she says "Perhaps these were the tones of the gods", but she should recognize at least Cultivation's and Odium's. The fact she's unsure suggests to me these are a separate set, and we do know the Wind and the Night have songs that appealed to Tanavast and Koravellium.

On 4/29/2025 at 8:41 AM, Jult said:

Also, I think WaT truth gave us a less tenuous link to Adonalsium with this Tanavast quote:

Also perhaps relevant (W&T chapter 100):

Spoiler

THESE QUESTIONS ECHOED IN THE STEWARDS THAT MY PREDECESSOR HAD LEFT. SHADOWS OF DIVINITY WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO PROTECT, TO SHROUD, TO NURTURE. ONE SANG TO ME IN PARTICULAR, AND THAT INVIGORATED ME, THOUGH I DID NOT KNOW WHY THE WIND WAS CHOSEN TO PROTECT. WIND, INVISIBLE WIND, SO FLIGHTY AND IMMATERIAL.

Each of the spren was left with a specific instruction, one might even say a command... so why only three, when the big Commands we know number at four?

It's also established that the Old Magic are Adonalsium, or at least part of him/them:

Chapter 100:

Spoiler

I INVESTED THIS LAND, RESTORING GODHOOD. THERE WERE ECHOES, OF COURSE, OF MY PREDECESSOR. LITTLE BITS OF HIM LEFT BEHIND. THREE POWERFUL INCARNATIONS WHO HAD HIS VOICE, AND MANY SMALLER ONES REPRESENTING ASPECTS OF NATURE AND PERSONALITY.

Chapter 122:

Spoiler

I RETURNED TO SHINOVAR, THE LAND WHERE HUMANS HAD FIRST ARRIVED. THERE I LAY DOWN IN AN UNCULTIVATED GRASS FIELD, PRETENDING I WAS A BOY BACK ON YOLEN. LOOKING UP AT THE SKY, AND THE CLOUDS, AND FEELING …

WHISPERS ON THE BREEZE.

"ADONALSIUM?" I WHISPERED.

NOT ENTIRELY, THE BREEZE ANSWERED.

"WIND," I SAID. "CAN YOU HELP ME?"

But again, why three when Adonalsium had four aspects?

However, if it was four as this post proposes, suddenly everything falls into place perfectly.

On 4/29/2025 at 8:50 AM, Treamayne said:

I believe that line is about the Dawnshards - the two we know (Change, Exist) could easliy be descibed as Aspects. It seems, to me, that affiliation with a color and number is an aspect of the Shards because of the Shattering (all being pieces that were formally whole - like light through a Prism, once split into different EM bands - each part is only a fraction of what it once was when all combined) - which implies that Adonalsium itself is unlikely to have a color or a number - it was combined, whole and balanced (in theory) not merely an amalgamation of the sum of the parts. 

The Dawnshards are Commands, though. If I tell someone "get me a cup of water", that instruction isn't an "aspect" of me. And I feel like Tanavast surely would know the nature of the Dawnshards?

That said, a command may not be an aspect of the issuer, but it still reflects one. My theory is the aspects represent the portion of Adonalsium's intention that gave each Dawnshard Command, which connection was then somehow exploited during the Shattering to separate these aspects from each other and then break them further. The Old Magic spren then would be avatars embodying each of these purposes and left with charges reminiscent of those original commands.

This of course raises the question of what happened to the fourth. I have a few different ideas, but here's one of them (involves Dragonsteel Prime spoilers):

Spoiler

In Dragonsteel, Aronack seemed to be a long-running provocateur against his Father, having corrupted his creations before and working to do so again. We also know that Aronack was at one point planned to be one of the Shatterers, and that long ago there was a failed plot to kill Adonalsium. And despite Brandon speaking of the child gods as a discarded idea, Hoid does still reference "the gods" as predating the dragons (W&T chapter 128).

What if in the modern lore these gods are avatars similar to the Old Magic but on Yolen?

What if, in the distant past, one of them plotted to throw off the core personality and seize more power for itself?

What if in the end it and the aspect it embodied had to be destroyed or at least buried, killing the connected avatar on Roshar and necessitating the destruction of its moon?

Also weird: Sigzil says in Sunlit Man (chapter 20) that the Dawnshard is "a well of unimaginable Investiture designed as a weapon". But we've also been told the Dawnshards were the Commands used to create all things, which doesn't make much sense with that. What if this avatar was responsible for twisting the Commands into this form during the first attempted rebellion, potentially related somehow to why they're called Dawnshards?

Edited May 26, 2025 by LewsTherinTelescope
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[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The Dawnshards are Commands, though. If I tell someone "get me a cup of water", that instruction isn't an "aspect" of me. And I feel like Tanavast surely would know the nature of the Dawnshards?

True - but on the other hand, if people didn't intepret Dawnshards as something similar to an Aspect, then why does everybody keep trying to Classify the Shards by their relation to the four "Dawnshard categories"?

I was not trying to say Command are Aspects - only noting that it is possible that a Dawshard may be both a Command and an Aspect (in the categorization sense). Even then, I was only trying to Brainstorm possible interpretations to facilitate discussion. 

Thank you for the discussion

Edited May 26, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Jult]

There's so much good stuff to unpack here. I love it.

6 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

A Sea* spren fits with the Essences. If you look at them carefully, you'll notice they come in pairs:

• Zephyr and Vapor
• Spark and Lucentia
• Blood and Tallow
• Foil and Talus
• Sinew and Pulp

These could very well come from gas (Wind), light (Night, or reaction against Night since she wasn't very liked), liquid (Sea*), solid (Stone), and above them all life (Adonalsium).

I had not looked at the Essences as pairs before. I like this connection. Did you make these pairings yourself, or are they mentioned somewhere in the books?

 

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

To play devil's advocate against myself, though: if you favor Day* you could argue they're light and Night is liquid (hence Cryptics and inkspren being dark, and perhaps related to midnight aether's blood connection).

Obviously, I'm a bit biased towards the idea that 'Day' maps to Spark and Lucentia. But I do think making Night the liquid spren has merit. On this note, it may also be worth mentioning that Koravellium (who felt an affinity for Night's song) placed her perpendicularity in the Horneater Oceans.

 

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

That said, a command may not be an aspect of the issuer, but it still reflects one. My theory is the aspects represent the portion of Adonalsium's intention that gave each Dawnshard Command, which connection was then somehow exploited during the Shattering to separate these aspects from each other and then break them further. The Old Magic spren then would be avatars embodying each of these purposes and left with charges reminiscent of those original commands.

This of course raises the question of what happened to the fourth. I have a few different ideas, but here's one of them (involves Dragonsteel Prime spoilers):

Interesting theory. That could explain this Spren's absence. 

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

Looking at it this way, each of the primeval spren were left on Roshar by Adonalsium for a specific purpose. We know the Wind was to protect, so I would conjecture that Stone was to remember, and Night was to foster/grow. Following this, I could see a spren of Day or Sea's purpose to be to expand/disseminate. 

[Jult]

3 hours ago, Ashkaloda said:

Looking at it this way, each of the primeval spren were left on Roshar by Adonalsium for a specific purpose. We know the Wind was to protect, so I would conjecture that Stone was to remember, and Night was to foster/grow. Following this, I could see a spren of Day or Sea's purpose to be to expand/disseminate. 

I like this. Anyone else see a potential correlation here between the 4 purposes of these primeval spren and the 4 Intents of the Dawnshards?

1. Wind's protecting would correspond to Exist
2. If Night's purpose did relate to fostering growth as Ashkaloda suggested, that would correspond well with Change
3. One of the remaining Dawnshards is often theorized to be related to thinking or feeling; which would pair well with Stone remembering

I don't want to guess on what the final Dawnshard is.. I've seen everything from 'Unite' to 'Destroy' or simply 'Act'. But, if there is a 4th primeval spren, I wonder if its purpose would help us deduce the final Dawnshard's Intent?

Obviously, a ton of conjecture and speculation going on here, but that's what I like to do.

[Through The Living Ash he/him]

1 hour ago, Jult said:

I like this. Anyone else see a potential correlation here between the 4 purposes of these primeval spren and the 4 Intents of the Dawnshards?

1. Wind's protecting would correspond to Exist
2. If Night's purpose did relate to fostering growth as Ashkaloda suggested, that would correspond well with Change
3. One of the remaining Dawnshards is often theorized to be related to thinking or feeling; which would pair well with Stone remembering

I don't want to guess on what the final Dawnshard is.. I've seen everything from 'Unite' to 'Destroy' or simply 'Act'. But, if there is a 4th primeval spren, I wonder if its purpose would help us deduce the final Dawnshard's Intent?

Obviously, a ton of conjecture and speculation going on here, but that's what I like to do.

That's kind of what I was going for when proposing their Intents, but we don't really know enough about the Dawnshards for that to be useful. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, Treamayne said:

True - but on the other hand, if people didn't intepret Dawnshards as something similar to an Aspect, then why does everybody keep trying to Classify the Shards by their relation to the four "Dawnshard categories"?

Historically I think the reigning assumption has been that the Dawnshards were used to Command all Investiture during the Shattering, and so the Shards arise from attempts to fulfill those Commands, rather than the Dawnshards being aspects of Adonalsium's persona in the same way the Shards are? At least that's been my assumption, perhaps I'm misunderstanding how the community at large has envisioned this working.

(That said I do totally think they're related to the aspects from Wind and Truth, that number doesn't seem like a coincidence. And now that we know the aspects exist, that does seem like a plausible new justification for there to be quadrants connected to the Dawnshards. I just don't think that when Tanavast references "Adonalsium's four aspects" he means the separate Dawnshard objects, I think he has to be referring to part of Adonalsium itself.)

6 hours ago, Jult said:

Did you make these pairings yourself, or are they mentioned somewhere in the books?

I don't remember if I observed them myself first or if someone else on Discord did and I developed my own stance off it, all that kind of blends into a soup after enough discussion, but I don't think it's discussed in the text anywhere. The Essences in general haven't really been touched on much compared to the Surges, I think the most we get is the Ars Arcanum mentioning the Double Eye's pupils represent "the creation of plants and creatures". (Though if you watch closely you can still see connections, like Willshapers having the Essence of Foil and Reachers being made out of bronze, or Shallan's admission about Testament having a running metaphor of bleeding.)

6 hours ago, Jult said:

On this note, it may also be worth mentioning that Koravellium (who felt an affinity for Night's song) placed her perpendicularity in the Horneater Oceans.

Oh interesting, I hadn't considered that. That'd be a neat connection.

5 hours ago, Ashkaloda said:

We know the Wind was to protect, so I would conjecture that Stone was to remember, and Night was to foster/grow. Following this, I could see a spren of Day or Sea's purpose to be to expand/disseminate. 

Tanavast mentions that they were left with instructions "to protect, to shroud, to nurture" and that the Wind was chosen "to protect", so presumably the other two instructions each belong to one of the spren. The most obvious answer would be nurture = Stone and shroud = Night, but Cultivation preferring the Night's song complicates matters. So for now I'm going to be going with nurture = Night and shroud = Stone, even if it's kind of odd (guess you could say laits shroud those within them?).

(Note: when I call a Shard or spren associated with a Dawnshard in the rest of this post, interpret that as shorthand for "associated with the aspect of Adonalsium which issued that Command", as described by my theories above.)

Change = "to nurture" seems uncontroversial.

Exist = "to protect" similarly seems like an obvious connection, but I'm actually going to propose Exist aligns with "to shroud". You see, there's a big question here: "protect" and "nurture" make sense as guardians, but why was one instructed to shroud? And that makes me remember two other things: Yolen being hidden, and Autonomy (which I believe to be associated with Exist) blocking Taldain. Did part of Adonalsium intend to keep the worlds hidden so they can't influence one another, so they can exist independently?

Now of course we need a counterpart to "to protect". Notably, the Wind resonates with Honor because of its instruction, so that seems like a good place to start. It's a fairly common theory that Honor, Devotion, and Dominion are associated with something along the lines of "Unite" or "Bind" (not necessarily those words) given lines in Stormlight and Elantris. We also see with the Windrunners and Bondsmiths that in the cosmere the concepts of protection and unity share a lot of DNA, and the Wind urging Kaladin to understand Nale is reminiscent of Dalinar's arc about understanding Tanavast and Honor. So perhaps the Wind's instruction is related to that intention?

This leaves us with only the fourth unanswered. Personally I think the last Dawnshard is about creativity, being related to Invention, Virtuosity, Reason, and Whimsy. This could fit neatly with either Day* or Sea*: we use a lightbulb going off as a metaphor for a reason, and the continent of Roshar itself would likely have arisen from the ocean. Also, both Dustbringers—Spark—and Lightweavers—Blood—are associated with creation. (Though this brings us to one of the annoying parts of the Double Eye system, which is that Illumination isn't associated with either light-based Essence... And don't get me started on Truthwatchers/Pulp and Edgedancers/Lucentia...)

[Jult]

On 5/26/2025 at 10:27 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Change = "to nurture" seems uncontroversial.

Exist = "to protect" similarly seems like an obvious connection, but I'm actually going to propose Exist aligns with "to shroud". You see, there's a big question here: "protect" and "nurture" make sense as guardians, but why was one instructed to shroud? And that makes me remember two other things: Yolen being hidden, and Autonomy (which I believe to be associated with Exist) blocking Taldain. Did part of Adonalsium intend to keep the worlds hidden so they can't influence one another, so they can exist independently?

Now of course we need a counterpart to "to protect". Notably, the Wind resonates with Honor because of its instruction, so that seems like a good place to start. It's a fairly common theory that Honor, Devotion, and Dominion are associated with something along the lines of "Unite" or "Bind" (not necessarily those words) given lines in Stormlight and Elantris. We also see with the Windrunners and Bondsmiths that in the cosmere the concepts of protection and unity share a lot of DNA, and the Wind urging Kaladin to understand Nale is reminiscent of Dalinar's arc about understanding Tanavast and Honor. So perhaps the Wind's instruction is related to that intention?

I know I left this topic dead for a while, but I was thinking about this discussion when I had an idea.. Protect, Nurture, Shroud, and <insert 4th thing here> could also be applied to Shallan's personalities.

Radiant = Protect (obviously). She helps Shallan exist.

Veil = Shroud (they're even synonyms). She helps Shallan change.

Shallan = Nurture (this feels like the worst fit, but she did create the others and she's about to be a mother. She also was pretty nurturing towards her brothers in some flashbacks). I guess Shallan does unite all of the personalities in a way?

Formless = <insert 4th thing here> (If we're going with the idea that these instructions have something to do with the Dawnshards, Brandon has said before that one of the Dawnshards is "different" from the rest)

I don't know what the significance of this could be. But it seemed worth mentioning.

[mai_day she/her]

I have kind of had the thought that there is not currently a fourth primeval spren…but that one more is necessary and must be born.

think about it, it seems as though before the shattering, Roshar was designed by Ado to be perfectly balanced. The animals were evolved for certain purposes to exist in balance with the spren and the Singers, and spren were evolved to exist in balance with the Singers and the animals, and the Singers were evolved to exist in balance with the animals and the spren, and it was all watched over by the Wind, Stone, and Night. However, the arrival of men to Roshar destabilized the balance (though it seems the balance may have already been broken with the Singers abandoning Night). Men destabilized the animal kingdom by farming them for gemhearts or hunting greatshells to extinction, the Singers by waging expansionist wars, and the spren by creating bonds that changed the very nature of spren in a way that led to the spren mostly abandoning the Singers. Things have continued to become less and less stable as men became the dominant force of Roshar.

however, it seems like there were elements on Roshar that were kind of perfectly placed for humans to adapt to. Shinovar seemed like a worthless mud pit that was unwanted by Singers, animals or spren, but humans were able to cultivate the land into the most fertile area in Roshar. The fact that human perception, interaction, and bonding changed the spren so profoundly almost seems like a necessary part of the evolution of their forms.

this may be a leap based on pretty limited information, but I feel like there were three primeval spren to match the three dominant forms of native life on Roshar (Singers, spren, and animals), but that Adonalsium had foreseen the arrival of men to Roshar and how it would destabilize their perfectly balanced ecosystem. So he built in contingencies, ways for humans to adapt and help build a new balance for Roshar. This was immediately disrupted by different sides becoming pawns in the games of shards, but the chance is still there, if humanity takes the opportunity to ruthlessly reevaluate the ways it interacts with the world of Roshar.

so how does a fourth spren come out of this? Well, Brandon has said that new spren are formed when large groups of people begin focusing on particular concepts, people, things, etc. which can create new cognitive and spiritual reflections of whatever the focus is. And as of the end of WaT, 90+% of the world is underneath the Everstorm, completely cut off from the sun. It’s even called the Night of Sorrows. Imagine living under that for 10-15 years, never seeing the sun, not knowing if you’ll ever see it again. It makes perfect sense to me that almost everyone in those lands would start hoping for, thinking about, praying for the end of the Night of Sorrows and by doing so, they’re creating a new great spren: the spren of Dawn.

i think this is leading to the humans working to find the balance between all the beings who have a valued place on Roshar, and take their place as a fourth equal part of it rather than trying to hold solitary dominion over it all. And I think Adolin is already reflecting that in the way he treats Maya and Gallant, seeing that they are beings that deserve respect when the culture around him tries to convince him that they are objects for him to use.

i don’t know, it’s still half formed, but it fits thematically to me. Humans have been noted on Roshar as a force that brings change, one way or another, and what better way to represent that than by the personification of the Dawning of new days.

[Jult]

18 hours ago, mai_day said:

I have kind of had the thought that there is not currently a fourth primeval spren…but that one more is necessary and must be born.

think about it, it seems as though before the shattering, Roshar was designed by Ado to be perfectly balanced. The animals were evolved for certain purposes to exist in balance with the spren and the Singers, and spren were evolved to exist in balance with the Singers and the animals, and the Singers were evolved to exist in balance with the animals and the spren, and it was all watched over by the Wind, Stone, and Night. However, the arrival of men to Roshar destabilized the balance (though it seems the balance may have already been broken with the Singers abandoning Night). Men destabilized the animal kingdom by farming them for gemhearts or hunting greatshells to extinction, the Singers by waging expansionist wars, and the spren by creating bonds that changed the very nature of spren in a way that led to the spren mostly abandoning the Singers. Things have continued to become less and less stable as men became the dominant force of Roshar.

however, it seems like there were elements on Roshar that were kind of perfectly placed for humans to adapt to. Shinovar seemed like a worthless mud pit that was unwanted by Singers, animals or spren, but humans were able to cultivate the land into the most fertile area in Roshar. The fact that human perception, interaction, and bonding changed the spren so profoundly almost seems like a necessary part of the evolution of their forms.

this may be a leap based on pretty limited information, but I feel like there were three primeval spren to match the three dominant forms of native life on Roshar (Singers, spren, and animals), but that Adonalsium had foreseen the arrival of men to Roshar and how it would destabilize their perfectly balanced ecosystem. So he built in contingencies, ways for humans to adapt and help build a new balance for Roshar. This was immediately disrupted by different sides becoming pawns in the games of shards, but the chance is still there, if humanity takes the opportunity to ruthlessly reevaluate the ways it interacts with the world of Roshar.

so how does a fourth spren come out of this? Well, Brandon has said that new spren are formed when large groups of people begin focusing on particular concepts, people, things, etc. which can create new cognitive and spiritual reflections of whatever the focus is. And as of the end of WaT, 90+% of the world is underneath the Everstorm, completely cut off from the sun. It’s even called the Night of Sorrows. Imagine living under that for 10-15 years, never seeing the sun, not knowing if you’ll ever see it again. It makes perfect sense to me that almost everyone in those lands would start hoping for, thinking about, praying for the end of the Night of Sorrows and by doing so, they’re creating a new great spren: the spren of Dawn.

i think this is leading to the humans working to find the balance between all the beings who have a valued place on Roshar, and take their place as a fourth equal part of it rather than trying to hold solitary dominion over it all. And I think Adolin is already reflecting that in the way he treats Maya and Gallant, seeing that they are beings that deserve respect when the culture around him tries to convince him that they are objects for him to use.

i don’t know, it’s still half formed, but it fits thematically to me. Humans have been noted on Roshar as a force that brings change, one way or another, and what better way to represent that than by the personification of the Dawning of new days.

I like this quite a bit. I still think the 4th spren existed previously and 'died' whenever the 4th moon fell. But if it is in some kind of deadeye-esque state. Roshar's yearning for the Dawn would be a great way or reason to revive it.