[Discuss] Taravangian's Stability

[bmcclure7]

On 4/10/2025 at 9:24 AM, Cosmer said:

Agree on his lack of stability...

Next question would be, which shard gives Taravangian the best chance of gaining more stability (and furthering his goal of ONLY shard)? Feels like that's where he would want to go ASAP - even before eliminating other threats. 

Also - I know lots of people think adding Autonomy would allow Harmony to better direct P & R, but is that the best option as well? Or just most likely given Autonomy's involvement in Scadrial

The answer is neither the intent of these shards are too well aligned I think they both were not together against their vessel

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

Oh, if we are thinking about Taravangian trying to hoover up more Shards:

Sel is just there with Dor hanging out in the CR. I get that moving a miniature sun made of god juice is probably a bit of a project, but Dominion and Devotion both seem like things Taravangian would see as part of his vibes. His self-perceived plan is to conquer the entire Cosmere because he cares about the people too much to not cause huge problems.

 

[Skylano]

On 4/17/2025 at 7:23 AM, Nitpicking said:

he could make an Oathpact to bind Sazed, since he's now Honor.

If Retribution Taravangian is going to start dabbling in interplanetary warfare, I think that making some kind of Oathpact would be the only ways to currently stop Harmony or Autonomy given that they have far more experience and possibly could ally. (though I think the latter is unlikely)

[BinarySecond]

I definitely agree with Taravangian having a limited amount of time before he gets wrapped in knots.

 

My own comment from another thread:

Quote

I'm fully on board with Retribution suffering from a Discord-style problem in future. Where the nature of the Shards begin to cause issues for the vessel and their decision making.

I personally believe that destroying Kharbranth is a full violation of the oath Taravangian and Rayse made.

As JohnnyKaizen wrote Taravangian has got some serious issues in store for him. Honour is evolving and Dalinar just gave it a shove in the right desired direction.

Taravangian has already noted that he's got to be exceptionally careful with making Oaths now; which I think will severely limit his willingness to enter into deals like Solo-Odium (SolOdium?) did in the past.

I think that means we're not likely to see any more Fused or Knight Radiant style options appear. I remember Rayse used to dangle becoming Fused as a reward, I get the sense that he wouldn't be able to lie like that anymore.

He's in a tough spot. Honour requires Oaths and the word of a Shard was already binding at the cost of great personal risk. We saw how Honour abandoned Tanavast sticking with his personal morality instead. It's impossible to exist like that IMO Dalinar was aware of the issues having lived through the downsides of blindly keeping your word with no regard for context.

Taravangian has his limited time before he's getting tied in knots. Plus anyone who knows what Honour is can hold Tarvangian over a barrel. "You want something from me/us? Let's have a formal contract "

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

On 4/14/2025 at 10:29 PM, SpartanBrigade said:

Oh that is a good point about Shallan and Adolin. I wonder if Taln might take it up. He’s going to be a viewpoint for one of the books and out of everyone we have so far he seems like the perfect candidate (although he might be too perfect that feels too obvious)

Wow, a herald as a shard would go hard. They are already a step removed from godhood as it stands, and it wouldn't be broken, it would be nice to have honor fill the obvious cracks in Taln's Spiritweb, as well as heal some of his brokenness. He would have the experience of multiple lifetimes, and an indellible hatred for Odium, or at least for what Odium put him through on Braize. If Honor is properly affected by Dalinar's involvement, then the combination would make Honor a formidable opponent. Maybe then, Adolin could take up Taln's spot as a herald. Then, maybe, and unfortunately, Brandon could write it so that Chana dies and Shallan could also become a herald and their marriage could last FOREVER. This is what happens, I'm calling it now. Even if it is only because I love them both so much, plus Kal needs his friends most of all.

[Jult]

On 4/17/2025 at 7:23 AM, Nitpicking said:

If he can find and recruit, say, Ghostbloods (or any worldhoppers) from Scadrial (who have a Connection to Harmony), he could make an Oathpact to bind Sazed, since he's now Honor.

 

On 4/23/2025 at 7:05 AM, Skylano said:

If Retribution Taravangian is going to start dabbling in interplanetary warfare, I think that making some kind of Oathpact would be the only ways to currently stop Harmony or Autonomy given that they have far more experience and possibly could ally. (though I think the latter is unlikely)

I like the idea of him using Oathpacts. And I think Endowment is a good target for this.

We know Vasher is still on Roshar. I don't think he's likely to assist Taravangian since he likes the Kholins. But, at the same time, it seems like a fair amount has happened to him since Warbreaker that we don't know much about. He does seem pretty jaded towards the Breath system (especially the bit about sucking people's souls out just to survive as a Returned). It's possible he's developed some hatred towards Endowment that we aren't aware of yet.

Or maybe Taravangian would just become aware of the Returned because of Vasher and he could find 10 other Returned willing to form an Oathpact. They just seem like a perfect weakness for Taravangian to exploit. They have strong Connections to Endowment and no particular loyalty to her.

Edited April 24, 2025 by Jult
As Nitpicking pointed out, I mistakenly made the Returned a whole lot edgier. They do not kill to survive; they just take people's Breath.

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

On 4/17/2025 at 7:58 AM, LeondeBowa said:

I remember in the sunlit man, when they realised the protagonist was roshiran they were very interested if he had sworn oaths.

It implies that roshirans are considered dangerous because of their oaths, which seems out of sorts for the standard knights radiant

I think this was because Radiants are dangerous. Just usually only to evil people, or people doing evil things. So I don't know if that fact implies that the Scadrian scientists believe that oathed Rosharans are dangerous to everyone. Alternatively, I think it implies that the scientists knew their non-intervention was inherently wrong, and therefore a Radiant bearing witness to their uncaring attitude towards the suffering of canticle's people would make that Radiant a danger to them specifically. 

Edited April 23, 2025 by Obeythelaw7
spelling, grammar

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

14 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Oh, if we are thinking about Taravangian trying to hoover up more Shards:

Sel is just there with Dor hanging out in the CR. I get that moving a miniature sun made of god juice is probably a bit of a project, but Dominion and Devotion both seem like things Taravangian would see as part of his vibes. His self-perceived plan is to conquer the entire Cosmere because he cares about the people too much to not cause huge problems.

 

Hahaha, hoovering up shards is so funny to me. now I need fanart of an enourmous figure vacuuming up power from various planets. I also wanted to say, of all the shards, I agree this seems most likely. Taravangian would also see his predecessors actions in stuffing them into the CR as fortuitous and like stashing a weapon in a room before you enter it for a party where you plan to assassinate someone, or "No Russian" the whole party, as is his way. Past Odium setting those shards aside for future Odium. I would be fascinated to see what happens to the Elantrians if this happened though. would they just die? Would Fjorden politically subsume all of Sycla? All of Sel? Would the monks of Dakhor fall too without the Dor? Too much chaos, too many great characters dying. For that reason alone, I don't think this could happen because I don't think Brandon would write it. Plus, what would we call a being with four shards? TetraShardic? PolyShardic? Both are a mouthful to say.

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

16 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Oh, if we are thinking about Taravangian trying to hoover up more Shards:

Sel is just there with Dor hanging out in the CR. I get that moving a miniature sun made of god juice is probably a bit of a project, but Dominion and Devotion both seem like things Taravangian would see as part of his vibes. His self-perceived plan is to conquer the entire Cosmere because he cares about the people too much to not cause huge problems.

 

I think we have confirmation he doesn't try this already. We know Elantrian magic is incredibly sensitive and I imagine pulling The Dor out of the Cognitive Realm would make it go haywire and be catastrophic for Sel in general. Considering we still have stable Elantrians in the space age, I think The Dor will be probably be staying where it is.

2 hours ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

Wow, a herald as a shard would go hard. They are already a step removed from godhood as it stands, and it wouldn't be broken, it would be nice to have honor fill the obvious cracks in Taln's Spiritweb, as well as heal some of his brokenness. He would have the experience of multiple lifetimes, and an indellible hatred for Odium, or at least for what Odium put him through on Braize. If Honor is properly affected by Dalinar's involvement, then the combination would make Honor a formidable opponent. Maybe then, Adolin could take up Taln's spot as a herald. Then, maybe, and unfortunately, Brandon could write it so that Chana dies and Shallan could also become a herald and their marriage could last FOREVER. This is what happens, I'm calling it now. Even if it is only because I love them both so much, plus Kal needs his friends most of all.

I don't think Heralds will still be necessary by the end of the series. The whole goal is to find a peaceful solution with human and singers living in harmony. Perpetuating a race war that's going to exterminate 90% of Roshar each time isn't a good ending. I'm not sure what could be done about the Fused but I doubt Desolations will continue post Stormlight 10 meaning the Oathpact/Heralds won't be needed either. They could disband which could be a cool full circle moment from book one where they disbanded in shame lying that they had won and abandoning Taln while this time they truly won and made sure future Desolations won't happen, disbanding with honor. 

[Nitpicking]

9 hours ago, Jult said:

We know Vasher is still on Roshar. I don't think he's likely to assist Taravangian since he likes the Kholins. But, at the same time, it seems like a fair amount has happened to him since Warbreaker that we don't know much about. He does seem pretty jaded towards the Breath system (especially the bit about killing people to survive as a Returned). It's possible he's developed some hatred towards Endowment that we aren't aware of yet.

The Returned don't (necessarily) kill to survive. They just turn people into Drabs. "Just".

[Jult]

10 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

The Returned don't (necessarily) kill to survive. They just turn people into Drabs. "Just".

Yikes. Big big mistake on my part. Thanks for catching it! I've edited my previous post. That's definitely less motivation for the Returned to turn on Endowment. But I still think their Connection to Endowment feels similar enough to the Heralds' Connection to Honor/Odium that Taravangian could exploit it.

[Skylano]

Something slightly less relevant, but wasn't Ambitioned Splintered in the Threnody system by the previous Odium? If Taravangian wants to snap up more power then looking for the Splinters might be a good starting point for him. Especially if it can get him allied with the Night Brigade because I'm fairly certain that they'll be around soon.

Otherwise, I agree with the thought that Sel is looking like an easy target to absorb the two Shards from the Cognitive Realm since Rayse was the one who damaged them, although the news about the Jaddeth book could have something to do with the Shards outside of the realm of Odium.

[Jult]

2 hours ago, Skylano said:

Something slightly less relevant, but wasn't Ambitioned Splintered in the Threnody system by the previous Odium? If Taravangian wants to snap up more power then looking for the Splinters might be a good starting point for him.

  Actually, the essay for Threnody in Arcanum Unbounded frustratingly obscures the final location of Ambition's Splintering:

Quote

"The Threnodite system is a site warped by an ancient conflict. Long ago, soon after the Shattering, Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location."

Seems they bounced all over the Cosmere and caused some widespread damages before Ambition went down. I only remember the line because it also left things vague regarding how Ambition was finally Splintered and by who. I had a theory for a while that Mercy dealt the final blow because we know she was somehow involved in the conflict, but there are some lines in WaT that contradict that now.

[Skylano]

Yeah, that’s fair.

Ive begun to develop a theory, if Retribution and Harmony can coexist as two, would three even be possible? Or would Taravangian tear himself apart (which is what I think). If he picks up a third Shard not aligned to the other two, he might just lose all three at once or something similar and then the Investiture goes wild.

[Jult]

21 minutes ago, Skylano said:

Yeah, that’s fair.

Ive begun to develop a theory, if Retribution and Harmony can coexist as two, would three even be possible? Or would Taravangian tear himself apart (which is what I think). If he picks up a third Shard not aligned to the other two, he might just lose all three at once or something similar and then the Investiture goes wild.

I think you'd be right. He might be able to keep them together for a little bit. But I think 3 unaligned Shards would quickly break a shared Vessel. "Unaligned" being the key word. If you managed to pick up 3 that didn't conflict, you'd probably be able to keep it together longer. 

For Taravangian, specifically, I could see a scenario where he acquires a third, realizes that maintaining stability is going to be impossible, and then launches a dangerous, desperate blitz for a 4th Shard to 'balance' himself out before he goes boom.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

On 4/24/2025 at 2:20 PM, Jult said:

For Taravangian, specifically, I could see a scenario where he acquires a third, realizes that maintaining stability is going to be impossible, and then launches a dangerous, desperate blitz for a 4th Shard to 'balance' himself out before he goes boom.

I think the interesting case for this is him seeking Mercy to try to balance himself better. A lord of law and punishment who cannot forgive is always at risk of becoming a nightmare to his people. But I could imagine the Honor-child intelligence getting really upset with any kind of inconsistencies or even just pragmatism that Taravangian brings to how he juggles Odium and Mercy around the lawfulness of Honor.

I would imagine Reason is the 4th one that would be the "Oh no, I need something god-sized to make the practicality of this work and not be upsetting", but that one lacks the obvious counter-point of Odium that Mercy has, since WaT has made it clear Odium is synonymous with divine wrath.