Space-Age Singers & Storms [speculation & discussion]

[Armadillo]

You guys think there's ways for Singers to change forms without Rosharan Storms?

I'm assuming Singers are going to at least show up in Space-age Cosmere in one way or another. Makes me wonder if there are other ways for them to change forms on other planets. Like, what is it about the Rosharan Storms that allows the transformation to take place?

The accepted process of changing forms involves accepting a spren into their gemheart during a Storm. Changing forms is also a huge deal in their culture, where different positions in society, stages of life, and other things are reflected in their current form. But thinking to the future of the Cosmere... how is that going to affect a Singer? If they can't change forms without a Rosharan Storm, why would they want to leave the planet, potentially never being able to come back and change forms?

How do you think Brandon is going to keep Singers relevant during the space age?

Question for further discussion, contains WaT spoilers:

Spoiler

It seems like Taravangian is going to be taking the fight off the planet and into the Cosmere. How do you think that will play into the Singer's roles in the Cosmere moving forward, especially concerning their forms?

 

[Treamayne]

46 minutes ago, Armadillo said:

Like, what is it about the Rosharan Storms that allows the transformation to take place?

Freely available investiture. The Nahel Bond creates a template between the Singer and the Spren in thier Gemheart - the rest is like Healing - the free-investiure of the Highstorm provides the power source for thier body to change and match their new Spiritual Ideal (which is a combination of sDNA for the Singer and Form provided by the bonded Spren). 

To be able to change Form off of Roshar, they would also have to have appropriate Spren available (likely in a Gemstone - like the RoW Flashbacks)

49 minutes ago, Armadillo said:

Question for further discussion, contains WaT spoilers:

All things for Spoiler Period material need to remain in the Spoiler Zone. I've reported this thread to the Mods so they may be able to move it for you - just keep in mind the Spoiler Policy requirements when making new threads please. Please see the Sharder FAQ for this and more helpful information. 

[Armadillo]

Oh interesting. So if a singer had a spren in a gemstone and, like, a jar of pure Dor, they'd be able to transform? That's handy. The spren might be a bit more inconvenient, since they're mostly a Roshar thing... but I wonder if something like the Spirits from Yumi would count?
 

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

All things for Spoiler Period material need to remain in the Spoiler Zone. I've reported this thread to the Mods so they may be able to move it for you - just keep in mind the Spoiler Policy requirements when making new threads please. Please see the Sharder FAQ for this and more helpful information. 

Understood! Thank you!

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Armadillo said:

I wonder if something like the Spirits from Yumi would count?

Unknown, but it would have to be a Splinter capable of forming a Nahel Bond, so it does not seem likely without some additional steps (like Connection, possibly).

 

Edited April 4, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

On 4/4/2025 at 9:20 AM, Armadillo said:

Oh interesting. So if a singer had a spren in a gemstone and, like, a jar of pure Dor, they'd be able to transform?

Maybe a dip into any Perpendicularity could be enough? Or would it need to be Unkeyed like the one in TLM?

On 4/4/2025 at 9:20 AM, Armadillo said:

The spren might be a bit more inconvenient, since they're mostly a Roshar thing...

To be fair, so are Singers.

On 4/4/2025 at 9:20 AM, Armadillo said:

but I wonder if something like the Spirits from Yumi would count?

 

On 4/4/2025 at 9:23 AM, Treamayne said:

Unknown, but it would have to be a Splinter capable of forming a Nahel Bond, so it does not seem likely without some additional steps (like Connection, possibly).

Maybe they'd need to know the Rhythms of whichever planet the Splinter came from? It could be a start.

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

On 4/3/2025 at 8:20 PM, Armadillo said:

Understood! Thank you!

I've moved the topic for you 

[Elite01]

We saw BAM change a singers form without a storm, so the intervention of a shard could change the form

[Nitpicking]

On 4/3/2025 at 9:23 PM, Treamayne said:

Unknown, but it would have to be a Splinter capable of forming a Nahel Bond, so it does not seem likely without some additional steps (like Connection, possibly).

The Komashi spirits do form Nahel bonds with the yoki-hijo. They aren't Radiant bonds, of course, they aren't based on the Heralds.

[Treamayne]

36 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

The Komashi spirits do form Nahel bonds with the yoki-hijo. They aren't Radiant bonds, of course, they aren't based on the Heralds.

Do you have a source for that?

The Spirits form Physical Realm Fabrials and the Yoki-hijo facilitates the change; but they "function" for whatever supplicant requested the specific Fabrial. I find no indication that it is a Nahel Bond (which is, in part, defined by two entities in a symbiotic state - Singers and their Form Spren, Greatshells and their Mandra, Ryshadium and their MusicSpren, etc.)

[Nitpicking]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Do you have a source for that?

The Spirits form Physical Realm Fabrials and the Yoki-hijo facilitates the change; but they "function" for whatever supplicant requested the specific Fabrial. I find no indication that it is a Nahel Bond (which is, in part, defined by two entities in a symbiotic state - Singers and their Form Spren, Greatshells and their Mandra, Ryshadium and their MusicSpren, etc.)

It becomes a question of exactly what the words mean. Brandon draws a distinction between nahel bonds, which are purely spiritual, and luhel bonds (as with the Aethers in Tress) where something physical is given to the Cognitive entity.

IMO, the connection between hijo and Yoki-Hijo is more spiritual (in the Cosmere meaning) than physical. It's a temporary thing, but ....

Maybe Brandon has another word for this stuff, I don't know. I think (haven't checked) that he classified a Seon/master bond as nahel.

It's worth mentioning that "nahel" translates as "holy". I think Yumi would call her Connection to the spirits holy.

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

It becomes a question of exactly what the words mean. Brandon draws a distinction between nahel bonds, which are purely spiritual, and luhel bonds (as with the Aethers in Tress) where something physical is given to the Cognitive entity.

IMO, the connection between hijo and Yoki-Hijo is more spiritual (in the Cosmere meaning) than physical. It's a temporary thing, but ....

19 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

It's worth mentioning that "nahel" translates as "holy". I think Yumi would call her Connection to the spirits holy.

So, it's speculation? To be clear, I'm fine with it being theory - what I have a problem with is when speculation is stated as if it were Canon Fact (and no source information). Qualifiers like "I think" and "It seems" go a long way here. My point is that it seems more like the YH are forging Connection with the Spirits, but it does not have any characteristics of a Bond (based on current known data).

13 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Maybe Brandon has another word for this stuff, I don't know. I think (haven't checked) that he classified a Seon/master bond as nahel.

WoBs indicate it is similar, and would function almost like a Nahel bond if an Elantrian and their Seon were on Roshar.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Argent (paraphrased)

Is the bond between a seon and its master similar to the Nahel bond between a Surgebinder and his spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

Quote

Questioner

If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon were to travel to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It would act very, very similarly, yes. But it would be like... it wouldn't necessarily do the exact same things. Like if you've got two radios tuned to a frequency, they won't necessarily pick up another radio frequency, or things like this. I don't know, that's a bad metaphor, I'd have to think of a better one. But it would be treated exactly the same way but it might not grant the same powers.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

Quote

paperstones

Could a seon or a skaze turn into some sort of Shardblade on their home planet?

Brandon Sanderson

That is theoretically possible.  They work under the same fundamentals but they would need to have something to pull them more into the Physical Realm.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

 

 

 

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

On 4/11/2025 at 6:24 AM, Treamayne said:

WoBs:

Okay, I have been meaning to ask you this since last week when I was so thoroughly schooled on the nature of shards, their vessels, and any potential power struggle between dishards. HOW do you find WoB's so quickly? Have you read them all and can just remember them using the index in your head, like you're the merriam-webster of WoB's? or is there a site where you can search through them? or some unknown third thing, like you're actually Brandon Sanderson and you've been playing games with us this whole time? 
follow-up questions:

If its the first one, can you teach me how?

If its the second one, can you share a link?

If its the third one, can I have your autograph in exchange for keeping your secret, lord spirit?

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, Obeythelaw7 said:

 HOW do you find WoB's so quickly?

I detailed all of that info in the Sharder FAQ (Extract below):

But part of it is definitely practice. I've been looking up and posting WoBs here for a few years now - so there are some WoBs one can recall well enough to find quickly based on the keywords - such as Seon&Shardblade keyword search. 

Spoiler

COPPERMIND AND ARCANUM

Both are available from the helpful blue bar at the top. The Coppermind is the Shard's Wiki where you can look things up for all of Brandon's Books (minimal Wheel of Time content as they have their own sources, like TarValon.net). The Arcanum is a collection of most (all known, new pending sometimes) WoBs, Q&As, etc. Basics of finding what you are looking for are detailed below.  

COPPERMIND

Spoiler

• Go to the Coppermind, you can search a term in the upper right. On the top-right of the page (below the search bar) you will see a circle icon that denotes how "complete" the information is (e.g. solid green means it has all known information, split white/black means unanswered questions, etc.)
  • Like any wiki, links to other pages appear the first time they are referenced
  • While reading you will find notes ([1]) that take you to the references at the bottom of the page. From there, if the reference is a WoB the link will redirect you to the Arcanum post.
    • You can open the link in a new tab, then use the browser "back" button or the up arrow/reference number to return to where you were reading the article
  • When searching a related page, type slowly and pause before hitting enter, the displayed "results" may help find a sub page (example: The Rithmatist/Interior Art for the art page of The Rithmatist book)
• The Coppermind has a Time Machine that will let you "revert" to before a specific book release to avoid spoilers for that (and subsequent) book(s)

ARCANUM

Spoiler

• On the Arcanum, you can read all of the WoBs from a specific event by clicking: Discover > Events, then select an event.
  • You can also go to a specific Tag by clicking Discover > Tags then clicking on the tag you want to view
• While looking at any given Word of Brandon (WoB - or Peter/Isaac) in the Arcanum, you can:
  • Click on the event name to read all WoBs from that event
  • Click on a tag at the bottom to make a search of all entries with that tag - such as Inspirations
  • The top right of the WoB has a "Copy" button, to easily copy the WoB contents to add to a forum post spoiler tag (please use spoiler tags to keep posts visually short and let new people avoid spoilers if they desire)
• Also, on the Arcanum, you can search for keywords using the search bar in the upper left
  • While searching a tag, the advanced search will be at the top of the page, so you can keyword search within a specific tag (example: Searching "Roshar" in #Inspirations tag)
  • Please see Argent's awesome post here for much more information
• In any keyword or tag search the default view will be "accuracy"
  • Refine searches with Boolean (+/& for "and" to combine terms - e. g. Roshar+Coral )
    • Note that this method is unfiltered and will return more results than the tag and keyword search above
    • But they can be combined, by filtering a tag and using a boolean search inside that tag.
  • You can be set that to "Oldest First" (avoiding spoilers) or "Newest first" (for recent additions) using the drop-down box
• Annotations can also be found here, though they are posted on Brandon's site linked from their respective book page.
• For the Arcanum, learn more at Help and Navigation

Hope that helps, and please feel free to suggest how we can make this better.

Hope that helps

[Obeythelaw7 Him/He]

5 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I detailed all of that info in the Sharder FAQ (Extract below):

But part of it is definitely practice. I've been looking up and posting WoBs here for a few years now - so there are some WoBs one can recall well enough to find quickly based on the keywords - such as Seon&Shardblade keyword search. 

Hope that helps

Yes, thank you! most of that was just me trying to be humorous, while also asking for the link. thank you again for being willing to help answer questions for so long now. very much appreciated!