Dofurion Posted February 28, 2025 Posted February 28, 2025 (edited) Introduction I know very well that this topic goes far beyond the general story and enters more into meta-narrative speculations. But I still believe that it is a very useful tool to interpret Sanderson's own opinion regarding the behavior of his characters. Now for some context. Sanderson was asked a while back how he would categorize the shards according to the colors of the MtG game. There are 5 colors and each one has a series of ideas traditionally associated with it: White: Peace Law Structure Selflessness Equality Blue: Knowledge Deceit Caution Deliberation Perfection Black: Power Self-interest Death Sacrifice Uninhibitedness Red: Freedom Emotion Action Impulse Destruction Green: Nature Wildlife Connection Spirituality Tradition Through these descriptions and combinations of them we can speculate a lot about the behavior of the Shards or at worst how Sanderson expects them to behave (in case we as readers interpret it differently). Over the years Sanderson has given his opinion on a few: 2018 [ref1]: Ruin: Black. Odium: Red. Honor: White. Preservation: White. Cultivation: Green. Devotion: Red/Green. Dominion: White/Black. Autonomy:"It's complicated". Ambition: Black. Endowment: Green (probably). Looking at this first comparison and comparing it with our current information, we find several curious coincidences such as defining Devotion as an entity associated with emotions, information recently awarded in WaT. Taking into consideration the previous point, I would like to point out the definition of Dominion as White/Black, which in MtG is linked to groups like the 'Orzhov' or the 'Silverquill', whose ways of acting are far from the fandom's conception of Dominion. 2022 [ref2]: Whimsy: Red. This fits very well with both the name of the Shard and the information we get from The Sunlit Man and Wind and Thruth. Caprice is a shard associated with self-satisfaction and the emotions linked to it. Now, as you may have noticed, none of the aforementioned shards are Blue (something Sanderson himself notes in [ref1]), this is important since said color is Sanderson's favorite [ref3]. So… What hypothesis can we come up with with this? A considerable portion of the remaining Shards should include the Blue color as an interpretation to define them. Sanderson's views on his characters, at least on a macro level, ultimately fit with his descriptions of colors: Categorizing Shallan as Blue/Red [ref 4]. Which is in line with his artistic predilection and would fit with what has been seen in characters such as the members of the 'Prismary' college in Strixheaven. And Szeth as White/Black [ref 4]. [Hypothesis] Fitting the remaining Shards into these categories Ok, first of all this will be a creative exercise since the ideal would be for Sanderson himself to define them and then we would speculate based on that. But as I imagine he considers that this could be a very big Spoiler for the intents of the Shards and that is why he has not responded again how he would classify them [ref2], this is still a good exercise in speculation. We have the following remaining Shards: Reason The first is the most recently revealed, Reason, which I believe would be mono-Blue. There is no other that fits that color so ideally. Invention For a long time I also considered Invention as a mono-Blue but seeing that the last Shard revealed also fits that color individually, I began to consider that it could be a pair, in this case Green/Blue. This fits a lot with what I've seen in the characters of the 'Simic Combine' guild and the 'Quandrix' college. Virtosity The Virtuosity case is quite simple, really, since its intent reflects both the technical aspect of the ability to create art, as well as the emotions that said art generates, then it is most likely Blue/Red. This is for the same reasons I put in the Shallan section. Valor My gut tells me Red/White, but the actions of said Shard contradict that. That's a more general question that's already been addressed, though. Mercy I honestly don't know what to think of Mercy, I'm at the point of thinking she's mono-White or mono-Black, it all depends on how Sanderson plans to approach the definition of his intent. Maybe we have another Autonomy case with a "It's complicated" Without anything else to add, I hope you enjoyed this post, I will be reading your comments. Edited March 4, 2025 by Dofurion 2
Treamayne Posted February 28, 2025 Posted February 28, 2025 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Dofurion said: Now for some context. Sanderson was asked a while back how he would categorize the shards according to the colors of the MtG game. There are 5 colors and each one has a series of ideas traditionally associated with it: Spoiler White: Peace Law Structure Selflessness Equality Blue: Knowledge Deceit Caution Deliberation Perfection Black: Power Self-interest Death Sacrifice Uninhibitedness Red: Freedom Emotion Action Impulse Destruction Green: Nature Wildlife Connection Spirituality Tradition Through these descriptions and combinations of them we can speculate a lot about the behavior of the Shards or at worst how Sanderson expects them to behave (in case we as readers interpret it differently). Two things: From what source did you arrive at that abbreviated list of color attributes? Any color pair or triad is not the same as the sum or difference of their parts. WB =/= Orzhov even though Orzhov is WB Color Identity Discussed in this thread, Links from the referenced thread: On 1/3/2025 at 9:20 PM, Treamayne said: Color groups have their own identity separate from just thier component parts. MaRo's Color Pie Article links all of the relevant color and color combination articles that discuss how Design perceived those colors (as of when the article were written). For example: Green is more than Nature - Themes of Green: Hide contents Here are a bunch of core things important to green: Life (birth)—One of the most potent forces of nature is the creation of new life. Green recognizes this as a key strength, and does everything it can to foster and honor the ability. Growth—Green is not about doing nothing. Nature itself is very active. As others twiddle their thumbs, the world is slowly but constantly growing. This unstoppable force of change is another very powerful element of nature, and it's something green taps into whenever possible. Nature (and natural things)—Green makes a big distinction between things that are naturally made and things that are artificially made. The first is a great gift from the world, and the second is an abomination. The world is creating amazing things. Green admires them and is always on the lookout for ways to make use of them to aid in green's quest. Reality (in contrast to illusion)—Truth is another potent force in the world. Green promotes truth because it reveals what actually is. Other colors try to misrepresent life, using lies and propaganda to mislead individuals to keep them from seeing the truth. As such, green is adamant about shutting down anything that misrepresents reality. Community—We are not isolated individuals but an interconnected web. Part of embracing green's philosophy is understanding the importance of how each of us figures into the lives of the others. Grasping the role this larger group plays is a vital piece in understanding how the world works. Interdependence—Nothing exists in a vacuum. Each individual's actions have consequences to the individuals around them. Part of accepting the message that green is trying to share with the world is realizing that you co-exist with so many others. Spiritualism—Green leaves religion to white, but it very much believes in the importance of accepting higher forces at play. Things don't just happen, they happen for a reason. The interconnectivity of nature doesn't just occur on a physical level, it happens on a much higher plane of understanding as well. The Past—Of all the colors, green is the most backwards-looking, as it believes that your future is very much determined by your past. Wisdom—Blue looks to the future and seeks knowledge, green looks to the past and seeks wisdom. Green believes that the secret to success today is understanding the successes and failures of those who came before you. For example: The Article at that link tells us that WB, as an enemy color pair: Spoiler White/Black prefers a docile society. Thoughts can be swayed. Logic can be argued. But mindless instinct is a lost cause. The key to White/Black's success is convincing all those around it that what White/Black is doing is in their best interest. Or at worst stall them long enough to get the dirty work done behind the scenes. It doesn't work if the people never take the bait. To understand the guild's goals, we have to first look at the goals of each of the two colors. White seeks peace. White wants everyone to get along. Black seeks omnipotence. Black wants to have all the power for itself. So how does one have both peace and omnipotence? By being the one that controls the peace. White/Black wants a world without pain and suffering. Although it understands it might need to use pain and suffering to achieve this goal. White/Black believes in tough love. It keeps you safe at the cost of all your liberties. After all, what do you need liberties for if White/Black is taking control of everything for you? White/Black uses structure as a means of gaining power. He (or she) who makes the rules can make them in their own best interest. At the same time, White/Black feels an obligation towards the individuals who make up its structure. White/Black has one last trick up its sleeve. While it uses its structure as a means to immobilize everyone it comes in contact with, it also, slowly (in the background), saps away the resources of all who oppose it. White/Black is patient. It understands that small gains (or the opponent's small losses) will build up over time. There's no need to rush if you have control of the situation. That sounds like what we know of Dominion to me. Edited February 28, 2025 by Treamayne SPAG
Dofurion Posted February 28, 2025 Author Posted February 28, 2025 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Treamayne said: From what source did you arrive at that abbreviated list of color attributes? Any color pair or triad is not the same as the sum or difference of their parts. WB =/= Orzhov even though Orzhov is WB Color Identity Wiki. I didn't insinuate that. I understand that, that's why I also used examples from Strixhaven. 28 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Green is more than Nature - Themes of Green: Reveal hidden contents Here are a bunch of core things important to green: Life (birth)—One of the most potent forces of nature is the creation of new life. Green recognizes this as a key strength, and does everything it can to foster and honor the ability. Growth—Green is not about doing nothing. Nature itself is very active. As others twiddle their thumbs, the world is slowly but constantly growing. This unstoppable force of change is another very powerful element of nature, and it's something green taps into whenever possible. Nature (and natural things)—Green makes a big distinction between things that are naturally made and things that are artificially made. The first is a great gift from the world, and the second is an abomination. The world is creating amazing things. Green admires them and is always on the lookout for ways to make use of them to aid in green's quest. Reality (in contrast to illusion)—Truth is another potent force in the world. Green promotes truth because it reveals what actually is. Other colors try to misrepresent life, using lies and propaganda to mislead individuals to keep them from seeing the truth. As such, green is adamant about shutting down anything that misrepresents reality. Community—We are not isolated individuals but an interconnected web. Part of embracing green's philosophy is understanding the importance of how each of us figures into the lives of the others. Grasping the role this larger group plays is a vital piece in understanding how the world works. Interdependence—Nothing exists in a vacuum. Each individual's actions have consequences to the individuals around them. Part of accepting the message that green is trying to share with the world is realizing that you co-exist with so many others. Spiritualism—Green leaves religion to white, but it very much believes in the importance of accepting higher forces at play. Things don't just happen, they happen for a reason. The interconnectivity of nature doesn't just occur on a physical level, it happens on a much higher plane of understanding as well. The Past—Of all the colors, green is the most backwards-looking, as it believes that your future is very much determined by your past. Wisdom—Blue looks to the future and seeks knowledge, green looks to the past and seeks wisdom. Green believes that the secret to success today is understanding the successes and failures of those who came before you. Yes, it is a better approach and supports much of my point regarding the Shards which Sanderson himself has defined. 27 minutes ago, Treamayne said: For example: The Article at that link tells us that WB, as an enemy color pair: Reveal hidden contents White/Black prefers a docile society. Thoughts can be swayed. Logic can be argued. But mindless instinct is a lost cause. The key to White/Black's success is convincing all those around it that what White/Black is doing is in their best interest. Or at worst stall them long enough to get the dirty work done behind the scenes. It doesn't work if the people never take the bait. To understand the guild's goals, we have to first look at the goals of each of the two colors. White seeks peace. White wants everyone to get along. Black seeks omnipotence. Black wants to have all the power for itself. So how does one have both peace and omnipotence? By being the one that controls the peace. White/Black wants a world without pain and suffering. Although it understands it might need to use pain and suffering to achieve this goal. White/Black believes in tough love. It keeps you safe at the cost of all your liberties. After all, what do you need liberties for if White/Black is taking control of everything for you? White/Black uses structure as a means of gaining power. He (or she) who makes the rules can make them in their own best interest. At the same time, White/Black feels an obligation towards the individuals who make up its structure. White/Black has one last trick up its sleeve. While it uses its structure as a means to immobilize everyone it comes in contact with, it also, slowly (in the background), saps away the resources of all who oppose it. White/Black is patient. It understands that small gains (or the opponent's small losses) will build up over time. There's no need to rush if you have control of the situation. That sounds like what we know of Dominion to me. Indeed, that is my point. Many times when I read opinions of how Dominion should have been, I find myself with the perspective of being a cartoon Tyrant seeking raw and direct dominance (something more mono-Black or Black/Red). And not so much the calculating and methodical entity that I think it could have been. Also, the Shards not only like to exercise their intent, but for other beings to exercise it, not only do they like to dominate, but for others to dominate in turn. And that fits with something more structured like White/Black. Edited February 28, 2025 by Dofurion Citation error 1
Ashbringer he/him Posted March 1, 2025 Posted March 1, 2025 I had tried to map this out at some point, with doing one color pair / mono color per Shard with Autonomy being the odd one out. It didn't quite work, as I made patterns up until I was left with Virtuosity and Green/Black (Golgari), which... I don't think so I had Invention has Red/Blue, as that's more in line with what the Izzet's chaotic steampunk-like invention tends to actually be in addition to the idea around it, but they could also just be Blue or Green/Blue. Depends to some degree how chaotic versus planning Invention tends to be, and how much you try to read into Simic vs Izzet - Simic things tend to be very Bio-focused, which doesn't really translate to Invention as a core concept Shard. (TL;DR, both Reason and Invention are indeed very Blue but in very different ways) I had Mercy as Green/White. I think of any Shard, that fits Mercy best, but also that color pair doesn't really translate well to a specific Shard, though. Its core idea is summed up in Community (or Unity, anyone?) which no one Shard hits very well - same with Blue/Black being all about Deception, or White/Red being all about... Valor, but a Valor that actually does things. IMO Mercy could also be mono-White or mono-Black depending on the Shard's Intent or interpretation, but not White/Black mostly because the pair doesn't really take from each other what Mercy's looking for. Or, honestly, Mercy could be Green/Black as a Shard of Life and Death in similar measure, but any piece of Black is going to have a bit of ruthlessness to it. 7 hours ago, Dofurion said: Taking into consideration the previous point, I would like to point out the definition of Dominion as White/Black, which in MtG is linked to groups like the Orzhov or the Silverquill, whose ways of acting are far from the fandom's conception of Dominion. I'll also note - I'm only tangentially knowledgeable of Orzhov and the fandom's perception of Dominion, but I think the pairing makes sense. I don't innately read Dominion as a hostile Shard, just one that values power and keeping what it has (with "Dominion" meaning both having control and the actual area where you have control). Sure, the Shard may be once named Conquest, but imo Sanderson avoided that word for a reason, so, eh. But Dominion is Order, even more so than Honor tends to be. That's very White/Black. 1
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