Mistborn Magic: The Gathering Set, Revisited

[Koloss17 She/They]

Mods, please let me know if this is the right forum to post this sort of thing. It’s sort of a fan works thing, but based around adapting Mistborn, soooo…do with that what you will. This post is mostly for Magic players, however, if you want to chip in, the early stages of this project involves properly working in the themes of Mistborn with the mechanics of the set, so establishing those themes is something anybody can help out with!

This is going to be a thread I will be revisiting a bunch in the future, as I am planning on working on the set a bunch in the future.
 

I’m trying to make a custom MTG set based around Mistborn. I have tried this in the past, and didn’t really go all that far. However, with renewed vigor, and possibly better knowing what I’m doing, I’m giving this another shot. While I had previously decided to only make a set from TFE, and then make more sets of further books, I am now just biting the bullet and adapting the entire trilogy into one set. This will probably mean multiple cards of the same character, and a smattering of different themes and moods of the cards, but I think it will ne easier than creating a set only off of the first book.

This project will be in five main phases:

1. Establish archetypes

2. slap a bunch of cards together

3. think more critically about the set structure and balance

4. Revise and rework

5. playtest

At the current moment, I am at the middle phases of step 1. I currently have a rough idea of archetypes, but have not completed the archetypes. For this project, there’s three main components of the archetype.

1. The flavor. What aspect of Mistborn is this trying to encapsulate?

2. The mechanics. How does the gameplay reflect that flavor/how do you gamify the book?

3. The colors. What’s the best/most thematic color pairing for this theme/idea/mechanic?

Any and all of these are currently in flux, so if you want to make suggestions on any of those, feel free.

Here’s what I got so far. Again, I haven’t actually made any cards with these, as I need to first get an idea of the archetypes. I am not particularly attached to any of these, these are just what I have brainstormed thus far. If you think a color pairing, mechanic, or theme is a better fit, let me know!

White+blue: Focused on the monarch mechanic, with the flavor being that of the constant battle for power and knowledge across all three books. If this is to be an archetype, obviously all colors will have some amount of monarch cards, just with white/blue as the center. Kind of like conspiracy: take the crown.

White+red: Rebels Typal. This is mostly going to be the flavor of the book 1 rebellion, with some potential additions of the warring factions in book 2. There should probably be a specific mechanic for the rebels, and I’m currently thinking the dethrone mechanic from original conspiracy. Having both conspiracy mechanics has some interesting politicking potential, with rewards for attacking different players (or if someone has both the monarch and the most life, extra incentive to attack them!)

Black+Blue: Library manipulation. This is meant to encapsulate the deceit and hidden information of the politics of Mistborn, with manipulation of the top of the library of both you and opponents being at play. I really like the idea of combining the surveil mechanic with the old lorwyn clash mechanic, which can lead to a higher likelihood that the clash will be in your favor. That, combined with looking at and light manipulation of your opponents top card, there is also the fun of knowing what is coming and manipulating it to your favor. Obviously I will need to be careful not to put in too much opponent library meddling, as fateseal is one of the more unfun mechanics in Magic, but I suspect light meddling, so long as it isn’t easily repeatable and too common, has a lot of potential.

White+Black: sacrifice. This is meant to encapsulate both the exploitation and resistance of the Skaa as well as the oppression of the steel ministry. Those two used to be separate archetypes, but they seemed so connected that it made sense to make them the same archetype. I’m thinking of using the aptly mentioned exploit mechanic, as well as having death triggers and sacrifice outlets galore. Aristocrats, with a Mistborn flavor.

Green+Black: nobles and treasures. This is another typal theme, and the subtheme will be the accumulation and spending of treasures. This seems perfectly in line with the books, and provides fun synergies with the sacrifice theme. This is tentatively in golgari colors, but could really be in pretty much any color pairing. Treasures and opulence are found in almost every color in some form. For the longest time this was in Green+Blue, and it is totally possible that it could live there or elsewhere again.

Green+Blue: transformation. I’m thinking of having quite a few flip cards with quite a few methods to flip them. Many characters and people in Mistborn have multiple sides to them, and transformation is a big theme across the series. I like the idea of having a way to cheat these transformations, and possibly having some MDFCs that wouldn’t normally be able to transform. Both gold and Malatium can be cool ways to transform a permanent (seeing their future/past/alternate self), and ideas like marsh’s transformation into an inquisitor, Kelsier’s transformation into a cognitive shadow, and vin battling with two sides of herself in Well of Ascension could all be flip cards, in some capacity. I also like the idea of having a few cards that snap into allomancers or transition from being oppressed to a revolutionary as flavor funsies. As with monarch, if this is to be a mechanic, it would be throughout the set, with a focus in these colors. Flip and transform things can also be focused in pretty much any color pair, so this is another archetype that can move around.

Red+Black: artifacts. The idea is that with treasures already about, as well as flavorful ways to interact with artifacts (coinshots and lurchers maybe destroying or gaining control of artifacts), and artifact theme would be pretty synergistic. Additionally, I want to make hemalurgic constructs artifact creatures, so this could also be a home for some Kandra, inquisitors, and Koloss. What exactly would be done with artifacts is still kinda unclear, but a sacrifice or typal theme seems plausible and flavorful.

Red+Blue: Allomancer typal+activated abilities. I’m thinking of having allomancy being represented through activated abilities, at least in part. This can also enable cheapening effects of like the mists or something, as well as the potential of creating vial tokens, which could be sacrificed to activate an Allomancer ability without having to pay, which I think would be cool. This is yet another nebulously placed archetype, which could justifiably go anywhere. I originally had the idea of having the five enemy pairs being 5 tribes (rebels, Skaa, steel ministry, nobles, and allomancers), but that kind of fell apart. However, izzet being the most magical color tracks for some reason.

I currently don’t have anything for Red/green or White/green. Problem is, green is generally the color of nature, and era 1 Scadrial doesn’t have a lot of that. Green could represented in other ways, but it’s a tricky thing. I was thinking of possibly having Red/green be representative of the battles and warfare of books 2 and 3, with a more even army side of things than the underdog feel of books 1.

If y’all have any ideas or suggestions for either new or old themes, that would be great! I’m also currently leaning on a lot of preexisting mechanics in Magic, and creating one or two unique mechanics, that would be nice. Also I don’t mind just card ideas, like how to flavorfully represent a character or event!

 @Treamayne and @Stormtide_Leviathan I know you guys are magic players, and I believe I contacted ya last time I tried to make a set, so here’s the tag this time!

[Treamayne]

For reference: Previous thread

On 1/3/2025 at 7:59 PM, Koloss17 said:

Mods, please let me know if this is the right forum to post this sort of thing. It’s sort of a fan works thing, but based around adapting Mistborn, soooo…do with that what you will. This post is mostly for Magic players, however, if you want to chip in, the early stages of this project involves properly working in the themes of Mistborn with the mechanics of the set, so establishing those themes is something anybody can help out with!

Probably belongs in Creator's Corner, but Mods can determine based on how spoilers interact with that forum.

On 1/3/2025 at 7:59 PM, Koloss17 said:

I currently have a rough idea of archetypes, but have not completed the archetypes.

Are you planning to use all of these archetypes, or brainstorm a list and choose a few to pursue. Remember, even Ravnica which hit all 10 color pairs did so over three sets, not all in one set. Also, are you set on only color pairs, or are shards and wedges still an option?

Color groups have their own identity separate from just thier component parts. MaRo's Color Pie Article links all of the relevant color and color combination articles that discuss how Design perceived those colors (as of when the article were written). For example: Green is more than Nature - Themes of Green:

Spoiler

Here are a bunch of core things important to green:

Life (birth)—One of the most potent forces of nature is the creation of new life. Green recognizes this as a key strength, and does everything it can to foster and honor the ability.

Growth—Green is not about doing nothing. Nature itself is very active. As others twiddle their thumbs, the world is slowly but constantly growing. This unstoppable force of change is another very powerful element of nature, and it's something green taps into whenever possible.

Nature (and natural things)—Green makes a big distinction between things that are naturally made and things that are artificially made. The first is a great gift from the world, and the second is an abomination. The world is creating amazing things. Green admires them and is always on the lookout for ways to make use of them to aid in green's quest.

Reality (in contrast to illusion)—Truth is another potent force in the world. Green promotes truth because it reveals what actually is. Other colors try to misrepresent life, using lies and propaganda to mislead individuals to keep them from seeing the truth. As such, green is adamant about shutting down anything that misrepresents reality.

Community—We are not isolated individuals but an interconnected web. Part of embracing green's philosophy is understanding the importance of how each of us figures into the lives of the others. Grasping the role this larger group plays is a vital piece in understanding how the world works.

Interdependence—Nothing exists in a vacuum. Each individual's actions have consequences to the individuals around them. Part of accepting the message that green is trying to share with the world is realizing that you co-exist with so many others.

Spiritualism—Green leaves religion to white, but it very much believes in the importance of accepting higher forces at play. Things don't just happen, they happen for a reason. The interconnectivity of nature doesn't just occur on a physical level, it happens on a much higher plane of understanding as well.

The Past—Of all the colors, green is the most backwards-looking, as it believes that your future is very much determined by your past.

Wisdom—Blue looks to the future and seeks knowledge, green looks to the past and seeks wisdom. Green believes that the secret to success today is understanding the successes and failures of those who came before you.

Spoiler

  

Mostly, I would suggest against trying to use "all the themes" as you will weaken all of them (unless you are making a full 3-set block, maybe) and research these articles to see what colors and combinations fit best for Scadrial. Also, consider a Torment-style theme. For example - if Blue becomes the primary color of Allomancy, then your themes could be WU, UB, UR, UG (or WUB, UBR, URG, RWU, GWU, GUB).

Edited January 12, 2025 by Treamayne

[Koloss17 She/They]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

For reference: Previous thread

Probably belongs in Creator's Corner, but Mods can determine based on how spoilers interact with that forum.

Are you planning to use all of these archetypes, or brainstorm a list and choose a few to pursue. Remember, even Ravnica which hit all 10 color pairs did so over three sets, not all in one set. Also, are you set on only color pairs, or are shards and wedges still an option?

Color groups have their own identity separate from just thier component parts. MaRo's Color Pie Article links all of the relevant color and color combination articles that discuss how Design perceived those colors (as of when the article were written). For example: Green is more than Nature - Themes of Green:

  Reveal hidden contents

Here are a bunch of core things important to green:

Life (birth)—One of the most potent forces of nature is the creation of new life. Green recognizes this as a key strength, and does everything it can to foster and honor the ability.

Growth—Green is not about doing nothing. Nature itself is very active. As others twiddle their thumbs, the world is slowly but constantly growing. This unstoppable force of change is another very powerful element of nature, and it's something green taps into whenever possible.

Nature (and natural things)—Green makes a big distinction between things that are naturally made and things that are artificially made. The first is a great gift from the world, and the second is an abomination. The world is creating amazing things. Green admires them and is always on the lookout for ways to make use of them to aid in green's quest.

Reality (in contrast to illusion)—Truth is another potent force in the world. Green promotes truth because it reveals what actually is. Other colors try to misrepresent life, using lies and propaganda to mislead individuals to keep them from seeing the truth. As such, green is adamant about shutting down anything that misrepresents reality.

Community—We are not isolated individuals but an interconnected web. Part of embracing green's philosophy is understanding the importance of how each of us figures into the lives of the others. Grasping the role this larger group plays is a vital piece in understanding how the world works.

Interdependence—Nothing exists in a vacuum. Each individual's actions have consequences to the individuals around them. Part of accepting the message that green is trying to share with the world is realizing that you co-exist with so many others.

Spiritualism—Green leaves religion to white, but it very much believes in the importance of accepting higher forces at play. Things don't just happen, they happen for a reason. The interconnectivity of nature doesn't just occur on a physical level, it happens on a much higher plane of understanding as well.

The Past—Of all the colors, green is the most backwards-looking, as it believes that your future is very much determined by your past.

Wisdom—Blue looks to the future and seeks knowledge, green looks to the past and seeks wisdom. Green believes that the secret to success today is understanding the successes and failures of those who came before you.

Mostly, I would suggest against trying to use "all the themes" as you will weaken all of them (unless you are making a full 3-set block, maybe) and research these articles to see what colors and combinations fit best for Scadrial. Also, consider a Torment-style theme. For example - if Blue becomes the primary color of Allomancy, then your themes could be WU, UB, UR, UG (or WUB, UBR, URG, RWU, GWU, GUB).

I’m not set on anything yet, I’m just generally interested in a two color full suite. Maybe it’s modern magic rubbing off on me, but not having a full cycle feels incomplete.

I am toying around with having one mythic of each 3c combo, as I think that would provide fun building space, but that’s more of an idea than a plan.

do you have recommendations on how to figure out what the right amount and pairings of archetypes are? I’m mostly approaching this how I approach making a character in the Alleyverse, funnily enough. Having a template to fill out, in this case expecting a full 10 pair roster, can force creativity and flesh out the design space, enabling me to make a more three dimensional character—I mean custom MTG set.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

I’m not set on anything yet, I’m just generally interested in a two color full suite. Maybe it’s modern magic rubbing off on me, but not having a full cycle feels incomplete.

I am toying around with having one mythic of each 3c combo, as I think that would provide fun building space, but that’s more of an idea than a plan.

do you have recommendations on how to figure out what the right amount and pairings of archetypes are? I’m mostly approaching this how I approach making a character in the Alleyverse, funnily enough. Having a template to fill out, in this case expecting a full 10 pair roster, can force creativity and flesh out the design space, enabling me to make a more three dimensional character—I mean custom MTG set.

Hello, I'm not much of a MTG fan, but I am a mistborn fan and I know some things that could relate to nature/green. In scadrial, the Ashmounts are a large part of nature and the enviorment (Reality and nature), maybe you could have some cards that give allomantic and feruchemical powers (Life/Birth), you could have it relate to other creatures in the enviorment such as Kandra or Mistwraiths (Nature and Reality?), maybe Ruin/Preservation/Shards in general could be white/green because it says that white is religon type and green can be spiritual which can relate to powerful deities such as Ruin and Preservation, and maybe another something whith more green that allows you to ascend (Like Vin did in book 3) to shard level, maybe with some sort of mind degrading (Because it was shown that shards start out with their consenceness intact and then their intent slowly takes over their mind until that shard intent is the only main intent in their mind, giving a downside to just becoming a god)

Again, take this with a grain of salt, I am trying to be useful here based as a lover of Mistborn, and I don't presume to know anything about MTG just taking the information already provided. This might not be helpful but I hope you take some of this into consideration. Thank you!

[Sophrosyne he/him]

HIHI! I'm not huge on MTG these days but i did play for years so maybe I can be of some help.

So before I read your ideas i had a few 'low hanging fruit' ideas.

* Bring back the old creature onesie Planeswalker other side for Mistborn characters.
* Investure as a resource rather like energy or snow.
* Some kind of land/metal mechanic. (TBH likely took complicated.)

 

After reading I'm with Treamayne I think narrowing in the focus will help. I'd dare say pick one or two center pieces and build up around them. EX if you wanna focused on crews then we can make a set around planning and having as many bases covered as you can with limited resources.

 

(Sorry I can't type more ATM leaving work)

[Koloss17 She/They]

2 hours ago, Sophrosyne said:

HIHI! I'm not huge on MTG these days but i did play for years so maybe I can be of some help.

So before I read your ideas i had a few 'low hanging fruit' ideas.

* Bring back the old creature onesie Planeswalker other side for Mistborn characters.
* Investure as a resource rather like energy or snow.
* Some kind of land/metal mechanic. (TBH likely took complicated.)

 

After reading I'm with Treamayne I think narrowing in the focus will help. I'd dare say pick one or two center pieces and build up around them. EX if you wanna focused on crews then we can make a set around planning and having as many bases covered as you can with limited resources.

 

(Sorry I can't type more ATM leaving work)

My main thing is that I’m definitely slapping a bunch of legendaries together, and if I’m doing all three books, I’ll be making multiple legends of the same character, showing their different arcs. A source of inspiration could definitely be the LOTR set, as it was doing similar things. 
 

and while I’m not opposed to fewer archetypes (say, 5 archetypes), that begs the question of how would I determine which color pairs I’ll use, which seems more annoying than just going “expect all ten, and find themes that fit the mold”. 
 

I also want to encapsulate the whole world of Mistborn, and while I’m not opposed to limiting it to a specific book (like TFE), that leaves the issue of finding art. An average set has roughly 200 or so cards in it, and while I can definitely find 200 or more Mistborn fanart or official art, I would struggle much more if I need to restrict that to just art of one book. So that’s another axis that I’m looking at.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

while I’m not opposed to fewer archetypes (say, 5 archetypes), that begs the question of how would I determine which color pairs I’ll use, which seems more annoying than just going “expect all ten, and find themes that fit the mold”. 

I think tying your archetypes to colors is a recipe for disaster. Just because Ravnica and Alara are color pairs and shard trios does not mean that ever set should use that structure. For example, in Theros the set themes and archetypes are not tied to color at all (except the five gods - which is less a "theme" and more of a Cycle. That did not prevent a demi-god color pair cycle, and other multi-color cards, as needed:

Spoiler

Battlewise Hoplite WU (2)
    Creature — Human Soldier (2/2)
Daxos of Meletis 1WU (3)
    Legendary Creature — Human Soldier (2/2)
Medomai the Ageless 4WU (6)
    Legendary Creature — Sphinx (4/4)

Ashen Rider 4WWBB (8)
    Creature — Archon (5/5)
Sentry of the Underworld 3WB (5)
    Creature — Griffin Skeleton (3/3)
Triad of Fates 2WB (4)
    Legendary Creature — Human Wizard (3/3)

Shipwreck Singer UB (2)
    Creature — Siren (1/2)

Spellheart Chimera 1UR (3)
    Creature — Chimera (*/3)

Kragma Warcaller 3BR (5)
    Creature — Minotaur Warrior (2/3)
Tymaret, the Murder King BR (2)
    Legendary Creature — Zombie Warrior (2/2)
Underworld Cerberus 3BR (5)
    Creature — Dog (6/6)

Pharika's Mender 3BG (5)
    Creature — Gorgon (4/3)
Reaper of the Wilds 2BG (4)
    Creature — Gorgon (4/5)

Polis Crusher 2RG (4)
    Creature — Cyclops (4/4)

Akroan Hoplite RW (2)
    Creature — Human Soldier (1/2)
Anax and Cymede 1RW (3)
    Legendary Creature — Human Soldier (3/2)

Chronicler of Heroes 1GW (3)
    Creature — Centaur Wizard (3/3)
Fleecemane Lion GW (2)
    Creature — Cat (3/3)

Horizon Chimera 2GU (4)
    Creature — Chimera (3/2)
Prophet of Kruphix 3GU (5)
    Creature — Human Wizard (2/3)

So, 2-3 cards of each pair, but the colors or pairs do not define or limit the set. There are more sets where the colors are an accent than a deciding theme - regardless of what current Commander Precons would make you think.

More later when I have time, but I really suggest you ignore color-as-defining-traits and instead think about themes (like Theros was Enchantment themed) in general and how to express and unify them. Identify potential mechanics (or mechanics you might return with a change - like morph into manifest) for use to identify what mechanics need to be developed to support the potential themes.

[Koloss17 She/They]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I think tying your archetypes to colors is a recipe for disaster. Just because Ravnica and Alara are color pairs and shard trios does not mean that ever set should use that structure. For example, in Theros the set themes and archetypes are not tied to color at all (except the five gods - which is less a "theme" and more of a Cycle. That did not prevent a demi-god color pair cycle, and other multi-color cards, as needed:

  Reveal hidden contents

Battlewise Hoplite WU (2)
    Creature — Human Soldier (2/2)
Daxos of Meletis 1WU (3)
    Legendary Creature — Human Soldier (2/2)
Medomai the Ageless 4WU (6)
    Legendary Creature — Sphinx (4/4)

Ashen Rider 4WWBB (8)
    Creature — Archon (5/5)
Sentry of the Underworld 3WB (5)
    Creature — Griffin Skeleton (3/3)
Triad of Fates 2WB (4)
    Legendary Creature — Human Wizard (3/3)

Shipwreck Singer UB (2)
    Creature — Siren (1/2)

Spellheart Chimera 1UR (3)
    Creature — Chimera (*/3)

Kragma Warcaller 3BR (5)
    Creature — Minotaur Warrior (2/3)
Tymaret, the Murder King BR (2)
    Legendary Creature — Zombie Warrior (2/2)
Underworld Cerberus 3BR (5)
    Creature — Dog (6/6)

Pharika's Mender 3BG (5)
    Creature — Gorgon (4/3)
Reaper of the Wilds 2BG (4)
    Creature — Gorgon (4/5)

Polis Crusher 2RG (4)
    Creature — Cyclops (4/4)

Akroan Hoplite RW (2)
    Creature — Human Soldier (1/2)
Anax and Cymede 1RW (3)
    Legendary Creature — Human Soldier (3/2)

Chronicler of Heroes 1GW (3)
    Creature — Centaur Wizard (3/3)
Fleecemane Lion GW (2)
    Creature — Cat (3/3)

Horizon Chimera 2GU (4)
    Creature — Chimera (3/2)
Prophet of Kruphix 3GU (5)
    Creature — Human Wizard (2/3)

So, 2-3 cards of each pair, but the colors or pairs do not define or limit the set. There are more sets where the colors are an accent than a deciding theme - regardless of what current Commander Precons would make you think.

More later when I have time, but I really suggest you ignore color-as-defining-traits and instead think about themes (like Theros was Enchantment themed) in general and how to express and unify them. Identify potential mechanics (or mechanics you might return with a change - like morph into manifest) for use to identify what mechanics need to be developed to support the potential themes.

I’m mostly thinking that sets like March of the Machines, Dominaria Remastered (most remastered sets tbh), Innistrad midnight hunt+crimson vow, Lost Caverns, Kaldheim, Duskmourn, MH2 and 3, Kamigawa Neon Dynasty, and nearly all of the recent sets have had 10 two color draft archetypes with signpost uncommons being multicolored for those archetypes. I’ve admittedly mostly drafted more recent sets (exceptions being khans of tarkir, Unstable, and Lorwyn), and so I’m more familiar with that structure. While there are sets like Streets of New Capenna and Strixhaven that deviated from those norms, I felt restricted by having half as many options to draft for, and I felt slightly railroaded. Now, this was admittedly not the case when drafting Lorwyn, but that set had some serious balance issues when it came to archetypes (now, I did make a Lorwyn+Morningtide cube, and adding more copies of some cards and less copies of other cards certainly helped). 
 

I take it you’re more familiar with old school sets? All of your example sets are from over 10 years ago, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as there were some real gems of sets, but I am admittedly much less familiar with those styles of sets.

Now, it is completely possible that modern set design philosophy starts with a few core archetypes and naturally develop (or shoehorn in) the other archetypes, because I only see the end product, which has the 10 2 color pairs. Now, I do often end up drafting 3 color decks, but that’s usually a melding of two archetypes rather than a secret intended archetype.

For set design, one of my all time favorite sets to draft was Kamigawa, Neon Dynasty, as many of the set mechanics were interesting and unique, as well has having flavorful worldbuilding tied to it. There was a thematic balance of tradition vs modernity, which they represented in artifact vs enchantment archetypes, with the WB archetype being a cool mix of the two, caring about having at least one artifact and enchantment on your field. I also ADORED the unique take on artifacts in the RB theme, which was essentially artifact aristocrats, and centered around the Akki and Oni of the plane. 
 

I want to emulate that draft environment, with different archetypes, but a similar feel of having a thematic push and pull to the archetypes, while having intricate overlapping synergies (for example, the WU archetype of vehicles synergized in a neat way with WB artifact+enchantments, especially with the rare legendary of greasefang). I want it to be easy to find interlocking synergies between any archetype that shares a color with another one, and have cards that can bridge that gap. Hence why I like the idea of having a cycle of mythic that are 3c legends, as drafting that can lead you to think about the synergies between the two or three archetypes that it’s blending.

for reference, these are the archetypes https://www.channelfireball.com/article/The-10-Archetypes-of-Kamigawa-Neon-Dynasty-Limited/0b351422-90bf-48a3-924d-baf405642300/

Edited January 4, 2025 by Koloss17

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

nearly all of the recent sets have had 10 two color draft archetypes with signpost uncommons

But, that's not done in design - it's done with "expanded" pool after the set design to make a draft environment. It's one of the main reasons why there are so many "extras" that are not part of the set (Base set, plus Precon-only, plus "The List", plus,  plus, etc. - all so they can "craft" a draft environment beyond the actual set). So, if that's what you actually want to make, then you need to make a set, then identiy draft archtypes, then identify reprints to fill the needed holes (and functional reprints, etc.).

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

for reference, these are the archetypes https://www.channelfireball.com/article/The-10-Archetypes-of-Kamigawa-Neon-Dynasty-Limited/0b351422-90bf-48a3-924d-baf405642300/

For comparison - Neon Dynasty Set Design Handoff, Part 1, Part 2,  Odds&Ends.

 

3 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

I take it you’re more familiar with old school sets? All of your example sets are from over 10 years ago, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, as there were some real gems of sets, but I am admittedly much less familiar with those styles of sets.

Not only are my experiences older (I stopped buying Magic when SL:TWD released  because I am opposed to UB being black border and dafault legal instead of getting its own border and being allowed if all parties agree) but I also do not enjoy Draft at all, so I have next-to-no Draft experience (I played Sealed pre-releases and stopped playing pre-releases when they got rid of the sealed environment).

So, while I have plenty of set design experience (GDS2 and personal sets and judge/organizer for card desgn contest on PlayMTGO and mtgCommander.net) I will likely not be much help if draft is your primary goal.

[Koloss17 She/They]

15 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

 

 

Not only are my experiences older (I stopped buying Magic when SL:TWD released  because I am opposed to UB being black border and dafault legal instead of getting its own border and being allowed if all parties agree) but I also do not enjoy Draft at all, so I have next-to-no Draft experience (I played Sealed pre-releases and stopped playing pre-releases when they got rid of the sealed environment).

So, while I have plenty of set design experience (GDS2 and personal sets and judge/organizer for card desgn contest on PlayMTGO and mtgCommander.net) I will likely not be much help if draft is your primary goal.

1) UB hate is pretty cool, actually,

and 2) what do you build the sets for if not drafting with it? Obviously sets serve a niche beyond drafting, but that’s mostly about exploring how the new cards interact with the greater pool of Magic cards and other formats (standard, modern, etc). Though with custom sets, I don’t see that being put into account all that much. 
 

I suppose there are ways to play constructed without draft (as you mentioned, sealed, but that’s generally similar to drafting, with slightly more agency and deck crafting considerations). I’m just interested to know what the other considerations are when building a set (obviously beyond flavor and funky+cohesive mechanics) other than drafting the set when it comes to custom sets.

My end goal if I do build the set is to ideally find a way to draft it with my friends, as both a form of playtest and just general fun, but also getting to know the experience of set designing is valuable.

[Treamayne]

34 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

UB hate is pretty cool

I don't hate UB as a concept, I was fine with it when it was in silver-bordered land (and advocated for it getting it's own, unique border color). It was an interesting thing that playgroups could use, but if you wanted to avoid - it was easily avoidable. What I dislike is having the choice taken away from me, where mixed genres (or really no-genre) is the default unless your playgroup decides otherwise (and since I don't have a playgroup - MTGO primary - that means I have no choice at all).

 

38 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

what do you build the sets for if not drafting with it?

In my case, it was the challenge of it, and the creation (since I was making my own plane, not using an IP or an already canon plane). Skippable story:

Spoiler

It was just after GDS2, which I could not enter because I was still in the military, but GDS2 incorporated volunteer teams helping the contestant (to also test their ability to organize the creative output of others) and I assisted a couple of entrants. I had already been hosting and organizing the Custom Card Contest (CCC) on the PureMTGO forums (I enjoyed custom cards for the technical challenge of blending innovation with correct Templating and Balance (see below)) and during GDS2 I had read all of teh Nuts and Bolts articles about set deign - so I decided to try designing a set (mostly while deployed) for my own practice and experience, in case there was a GDS3 I might be able ot enter after leaving the Military (IIRC - this was before the Hasbro buyout and WotC changing to Profit > Game).

TLDR - I did it to see if I could do it.

My old CCC Grading criteria:

Spoiler

Each month had a contest theme or requirement. Grading took that into account:

Each entry can earn up to 10 points in each of the following categories (for a total of 50 possible points per entry):

• Originality
(To score highly in this category, the card should be innovative and groundbreaking.)
10: Truly original in implementing the contest requirements and/or implemented contest ideas in a novel or innovative fashion. Implements new card concepts or conventions entirely divergent from published content or previous contest/posted cards.
7-9: Original implementation of contest requirements, establishes viable new concept or convention or innovative use of existing concept or convention.
4-6: Establishes new concept or convention that may be viable and/or uses existing concepts/conventions in new or interesting ways
1-3: Uses existing concepts or ideas (under new or existing names) to fulfill contest requirements.

• Templating
(To score highly in this category, the card should be worded correctly. We should understand what the card is supposed to do with one reading. In addition, matters of spelling, grammar and card layout come under this heading.)
10: No Errors, no missing elements
8-9: 1-2 minor errors in spelling, grammar or punctuation, no Keyword or mechanics errors, no missing elements
6-7: Spelling, grammar and punctuation errors do not severely inhibit understanding of the card. 1 or 2 minor keyword or mechanic errors. Missing elements do not make the card unusable.
4-5: Errors make the card difficult to understand and/or missing elements would have to be fixed before card is usable (missing P/T on a creature)
1-3: Errors make card unusable or very difficult to understand

• Balance
(To score highly in this category, the card should be proportionately costed for its effect, neither game-breaking nor unusably weak.)
10: Power, cost and rarity are well balanced and the card is playable in almost all formats.
7-9: Card is playable in multiple formats, but may be slightly over or under-costed in CMC or an ability.
4-6: Card seems to have a rarity inconsistent with it’s power level and/or is over or under-costed in CMC and/or abilities.
1-3: Cards power, cost and rarity are entirely miss-matched. Card may be unplayable or broken in one or multiple formats.

• Flavor
(To score highly in this category, the card should conform to its color and types, and feel in-character for the game as a whole. Cards that tell an evocative story within what they do will benefit here.)
10: Card perfectly fits the theme of the contest and/or expands on contest themes, and has appropriate color, type, subtype and attributes to fit the contest and card theme. Card fits the overall theme and feel of MtG. A sense of story can be derived from the card.
7-9: Card fits the theme of the contest and fits the overall themes and feeling of the game. All or most of the card attributes fit the contest and card themes. Indicates thought or story behind the card, but may not be overtly apparent.
4-6: Card loosely fits theme of the contest and/or card theme and story not entirely coherent. Some card attributes do not fit the theme or feel of the card or contest.
1-3: Card does not fit easily into contest theme and/or little coherency among card attributes and theme.

• Appeal
(To score highly in this category, the card should be something that grabs at least one of the psychographic profiles strongly as something they'd want to use. )
10: Entry appeals to all player archetypes, and strongly resonates with at least one player archetype. Card would become a “staple” card, of its type, if printed.
7-9: Entry has some appeal to each player archetype and resonates with at least one player archetype. Card would have varied use in most formats
4-6: Entry appeals to a player archtype and may have uses in multiple formats.
1-3: Card has limited use in few formats. One player archetype may be drawn to use the card in specific circumstances.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

that’s generally similar to drafting, with slightly more agency and deck crafting considerations

I would actually argue that Sealed has less agency, because you have to make do with the pool you receive - and find how to work that, rather than employing draft strategy to work toward the deck you want.

50 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

I’m just interested to know what the other considerations are when building a set (obviously beyond flavor and funky+cohesive mechanics) other than drafting the set when it comes to custom sets.

That's why I sent you that collection of Nuts and Bolts articles (which I still have in docx or pdf if others want them) because they discuss all of these considerations during set design.

51 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

My end goal if I do build the set is to ideally find a way to draft it with my friends, as both a form of playtest and just general fun, but also getting to know the experience of set designing is valuable.

Good to know your goal - just expect that a full draft experience you want is more than just the "set" now-a-days. Pre-BFZ the draft experience was still revolving around just the set and block in which it was contained. It's one of the main reasons Khans switched from Wedges in set one to mono, then color pairs for sets 2 and 3, to balance the draft experience for the block as a whole.

As I said, I'll help if I can.

[Koloss17 She/They]

49 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I don't hate UB as a concept, I was fine with it when it was in silver-bordered land (and advocated for it getting it's own, unique border color). It was an interesting thing that playgroups could use, but if you wanted to avoid - it was easily avoidable. What I dislike is having the choice taken away from me, where mixed genres (or really no-genre) is the default unless your playgroup decides otherwise (and since I don't have a playgroup - MTGO primary - that means I have no choice at all).

 

God I hate that now they’re saying that half of all magic sets will be universes beyond going forward, and that all of them will be standard legal.

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

God I hate that now they’re saying that half of all magic sets will be universes beyond going forward, and that all of them will be standard legal.

Yeah that wrole "article" was "Blah blah blah mo' money"

[Sophrosyne he/him]

16 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

God I hate that now they’re saying that half of all magic sets will be universes beyond going forward, and that all of them will be standard legal.

Wow. The state of MTG sounds not great right now. I can't imagine having so little faith in a project so far into it.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I don't hate UB as a concept, I was fine with it when it was in silver-bordered land (and advocated for it getting it's own, unique border color). It was an interesting thing that playgroups could use, but if you wanted to avoid - it was easily avoidable. What I dislike is having the choice taken away from me, where mixed genres (or really no-genre) is the default unless your playgroup decides otherwise (and since I don't have a playgroup - MTGO primary - that means I have no choice at all).

I'm with you Treamayne different border color would have gone a long way into making UB feel better. Coincidently I dropped MTG JUST before the first couple sets of UB, mostly due to set frequency.

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

I'm with you Treamayne different border color would have gone a long way into making UB feel better. Coincidently I dropped MTG JUST before the first couple sets of UB, mostly due to set frequency.

I didn't drop it entirely - I just stopped buying product and paying money to an entity that has clearly put profits ahead of the health of the game. I still have some cards (though I am selling off most of them and only keeping key decks) and I still have a huge MTGO collection and play there occassionally. Mostly I get my MtG fix playing Shandalar now, since Manalink has added content and made it playable on modern OSes (many cards through Crimson Vow)

Edited January 5, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Koloss17 She/They]

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I didn't drop it entirely - I just stopped buying product and paying money to an entity that has clearly put profits ahead of the health of the game. I still have some cards (though I am selling off most of them and only keeping key decks) and I still have a huge MTGO collection and play there occassionally. Mostly I get my MtG fix playing Shandalar now, since Manalink has added content and made it playable on modern OSes (many cards through Crimson Vow)

Yeah I mostly proxy now, with the only exceptions being buying draft boosters for sets that I feel deserve it. Which will be continually dwindling, it seems…

On the topic of the Mistborn set tho, I’m still slightly unsure how to flavorfully represent allomancy. I like the theory of having it be activated ability oriented (expending resources to get a burst of power), but I also think that could limit some design space, especially when it comes to non allomantic cards and activated abilities.

Y’all got ideas on how to convert allomancy into MTG? I am a fan of having some sort of mechanic associated with it, not just a case of flavorful triggered/activated/static abilities interspersed throughout the set. While that would be the easiest option, having some mechanical flavor is fun.

previously I tied certain metals to certain colors and tried to incorporate burning AND flaring, but I think that is just way too restrictive. There’s definitely a line to walk between thematically cohesive and mechanically restrictive.

A slightly related wondering is that while having coinshots gain flying  would be great, I worry that that would be the only flavorful way to give any creatures flying in the set. There’s not really any flying shenanigans past that in era 1. But not having coinshots gain flying also feels like a massive missed opportunity.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Koloss17

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Y’all got ideas on how to convert allomancy into MTG? I am a fan of having some sort of mechanic associated with it, not just a case of flavorful triggered/activated/static abilities interspersed throughout the set. While that would be the easiest option, having some mechanical flavor is fun.

Possibilities for discussion:

1. Metal Vial tokens (a la Blood Tokens)
2. Metal sourced mana (like a variant on Snow/Phyrexian Mana - Investiture Mana from Metal Artifacts is optional/required for some abilities (or the ability is X, using Metallic Mana adds Y))
3. Some misting abilities are just represented by Keywords - e. g. Pewterarms get haste, first strike, and/or trample, Rioters have a Goad ability, etc.

 

[Koloss17 She/They]

3 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Possibilities for discussion:

1. Metal Vial tokens (a la Blood Tokens)
2. Metal sourced mana (like a variant on Snow/Phyrexian Mana - Investiture Mana from Metal Artifacts is optional/required for some abilities (or the ability is X, using Metallic Mana adds Y))
3. Some misting abilities are just represented by Keywords - e. g. Pewterarms get haste, first strike, and/or trample, Rioters have a Goad ability, etc.

 

Yeah I like the idea of activated abilities because of no. 1, as vial tokens could be sacrificed to essentially cheat on allomantic activations. Basically something like “tap, sac: activate the activated ability of an Allomancer you control without paying its cost”. I am intrigued by no. 2, but I don’t want something like snow mana that is essentially a 6th mana type, as I suspect that would get annoying. Number 3 seems to be a simple one, but I struggle to get a mechanical theme there. Maybe keywords in the set are only tied to allomancy? Or possibly only evergreen keywords? That could provide interesting potential with soulflayer-style Kandra/mistwraiths, but that also leads to a flavorful issue of Kandra specifically not gaining keywords.

However, it does make Hemalurgy flavorfully interesting, as it could essentially steal keywords. You could just do the same thing with activated abilities though…

hmmmmmm

[Sophrosyne he/him]

6 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

Number 3 seems to be a simple one, but I struggle to get a mechanical theme there. Maybe keywords in the set are only tied to allomancy? Or possibly only evergreen keywords?

I think the resource route is the way. spend X vial tokens or Investure get Y keyword.

I don't think keywording the metals themselves would be silly though. Imagine someone not familiar with Mistborn having to memorize 16-42 keywords. Oof!

I'd say many of the Allomatic abilities have parallels. Pewter =Firststrike and or indestructible. Steel = Fly or just tap for X damage.

 

[Treamayne]

23 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

However, it does make Hemalurgy flavorfully interesting, as it could essentially steal keywords

Phyrexian Splicer says Hi.

14 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

I'd say many of the Allomatic abilities have parallels. Pewter =Firststrike and or indestructible. Steel = Fly or just tap for X damage.

Well, let's see if and how? (afterall, a Keyword does not mean that is the only way to express a metal, just the most common expression of a metal)

• Steel - Flying
• Iron - Reach? (Pulling something down to your level)
• Pewter - Haste? First Strike?
• Tin - Maybe First Strike here (see/hear it coming)?
• Brass - Target cannot attack/block
• Zinc - Goad/Provoke?
• Copper - Activated ability cannot be countered?
• Bronze - Scry?
• Atium - Fateseal? Deathtouch?
• Gold - ??
• Duralumin - ?? Activate target ability without paying cost?
• Aluminum - Counter target activated ability?

Edited January 5, 2025 by Treamayne
List ideas

[Elite01]

I love stuff like this,

I agree that metal tokens seem like a good idea, something along the lines of sacrifice X metal tokens to deal X damage for example, but I'm not sure if it should be like blood tokens or if it should be like oil tokens the phyrexians have... Really not sure.

Not sure on the whole set structure but some random ideas I have 

lurcher - pay X metal tokens to unequip target artifact with X mana value from target creature. (because Lurchers main role was to play support and take vials from enemies)

Coinshot/Mistborn - they gain flying if an enemy controls an artifact (or maybe you can sacrifice a metal token) 

Coppercloud - hexproof or gives the player hexproof

Seeking - some kind of scry mechanic 

Pewterarm - trample or haste

Tineye - vigilance 

Atium - first strike or double strike

Duralium - activate target activated ability twice for the same mana cost

 

Some kind of cumulative upkeep mechanic would be interesting, like if ash was falling every turn and it had to be dealt with or something bad would happen... 

Its probably not worth it but you could have a "snapping mechanic" like enrage where if a creature is dealt damage it transforms at the end step. 

 

Green white could be terris or feruchemy cause they kind of have a similar vibe to Selesynia, with a focus on community and patience. 

No clue how you would translate feruchemy into MTG... Like an opposite of exert? "tap this creature, it gains +2/+2 on your next turn" 

Mistwraiths could also be included in green for variety. 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2025 by Elite01

[Koloss17 She/They]

19 minutes ago, Sophrosyne said:

I think the resource route is the way. spend X vial tokens or Investure get Y keyword.

I don't think keywording the metals themselves would be silly though. Imagine someone not familiar with Mistborn having to memorize 16-42 keywords. Oof!

I'd say many of the Allomatic abilities have parallels. Pewter =Firststrike and or indestructible. Steel = Fly or just tap for X damage.

 

Yeah my main concern with this particular route instead of just pumping mana into an ability is that it’s yet another resource to keep track of. Like maybe there could be an energy counter type thing going on, with a player getting counters instead of physical tokens, but given that allomancy kind of has to be across all 5 colors, that would probably also get annoying fast. There’s big thing that made blood tokens work, imo, is that only one archetype really used them as a resource, and that they had an outside function. Having all of the archetypes use it seems gratuitous. 
 

I mean, maybe energy-style resource management could be a thing, but there’s also a slippery slope with energy being notoriously either incredibly weak or incredibly broken, with very little in between.

[Elite01]

Good point it could just be mana ability. Could also be energy from kaldesh but that probably doesn't fit as well...

Plus at least blood and food tokens can do something on their own instead of just being an alternative to mana. 

Its trying to capture the vibe of mistborns keeping track of their vials and reloading when a metal is low right? Does that need to be in the set or could it be passed over?

Edited January 5, 2025 by Elite01

[Sophrosyne he/him]

15 minutes ago, Koloss17 said:

I mean, maybe energy-style resource management could be a thing, but there’s also a slippery slope with energy being notoriously either incredibly weak or incredibly broken, with very little in between.

nah I get you, but I think Energy counters or 'Vial' tokens are the only ways to do to it. 
I like snow myself, but I don't think a mechanic in that vein is the right call here.

 

12 minutes ago, Elite01 said:

Its trying to capture the vibe of mistborns keeping track of their vials and reloading when a metal is low right? Does that need to be in the set or could it be passed over?

This is a very good point. Is vial tracking actually something you want in the set.

Another option is metal born get their base abilities, but vials let them flare.

Edited January 5, 2025 by Sophrosyne
Spelling and grammar

[Koloss17 She/They]

12 minutes ago, Elite01 said:

Good point it could just be mana ability. Could also be energy from kaldesh but that probably doesn't fit as well...

Plus at least blood and food tokens can do something on their own instead of just being an alternative to mana. 

It’s trying to capture the vibe of mistborns keeping track of their vials and reloading when a metal is low right? Does that need to be in the set or could it be passed over?

That’s the best thing: I don’t know. Like, flavorfully there’s a lot of aspects to Allomancy that I think are all awesome, but have aspects that can’t all exist in magic. Here’s a list of some of them.

-You need specific metals for specific powers: color bound/mechanic bound abilities. Seems restrictive and unnecessary, so probably not.

-burning vs flaring: could be exert or a similar thing, possibly two separate abilities, with one costing more. I tried it, and while I liked the flavor, it ended up being very wordy. Maybe there could be something like keywording flare to basically be “pay double this resource, get this extra effect” but again that’s wordy.

-metals are a limited resource to be managed: this one I think is very in keeping with Magic, and could be done. I think this kind of rules out the option of representing allomancy as a static ability, which I’m fine with. Either paying mana or using some other resource (such as metal counters/tokens, essentially reskinning energy counters) are both viable options, and have their own downsides, as previously discussed.

-savantism: overuse leads to addiction. I don’t think this can be a common mechanic, but you can certainly have a Spook card that needs an amount of mana/resource to be paid on the upkeep to do anything that turn.

There’s compromises that need to be made, and I feel like I can make them, but it’s hard to decide which ones to give up on.

I’m slowly coming around to the off brand energy idea (possibly making them artifacts to sacrifice, but I worry that might clutter boardstates), with one big hurdle: with energy, there’s generally inherent generation of energy on the card itself. A lot of kaladesh cards just said “get some amount of energy when this enters,” which is a fine enough solution, but doesn’t seem flavorful for allomancers. Generally allomancers acquire their own vials from other sources, which is why a flavor of mana metaphorically acting as metal makes sense to me. It also has the upside of being able to use treasure tokens to fuel allomancy, which can both be buying vials or just eating the metal, which I’m a fan of. 
 
maybe instead of having just activated abilities, there could be triggered abilities that cost mana to activate as well. Like “whenever x happens” or “whenever this creature attacks”, which could solve some of that mechanical restriction. Obviously it leads to the problem of meaning that non-allomancers probably wont be able to have abilities that require mana, but I honestly think that’s fine. That just means that I have to get creative with cost payment, and I can have spells and noncreature permanents be mana sinks instead.