Allomancy Inefficiency

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

There are a few things that just don’t track with allomancy, that m’bro pointed out to me a little while back.

Sanderson calls it end-positive, but it seems vastly end negative.

With the process of this allomancy, metal… disappears. The amount of energy stored in matter is a heckofalot, and a steel-push is barely anything.

Then the second thing is, the Investiture is not even supplied by the metal - instead, it is supplied by the Allomancers inherent investiture, stemming from Lerasium.

Soooo…

Where does it all go?

Theres probably smt I’m missing here, and if soooo…

yea.

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

There are a few things that just don’t track with allomancy, that m’bro pointed out to me a little while back.

Sanderson calls it end-positive, but it seems vastly end negative.

With the process of this allomancy, metal… disappears. The amount of energy stored in matter is a heckofalot, and a steel-push is barely anything.

. . .

Soooo…

Where does it all go?

Theres probably smt I’m missing here, and if soooo…

yea.

I would venture to guess that the loss of energy is because the metal isn't getting converted into energy, as a Harmonium/Trellium bomb works, I think it's just trading one thing for another. Matter for Investiture, which isn't necessarily one-to-one.

Though as @king of nowhere said, both the Investiture and the metal return to Preservation's system eventually.

Quote

Then the second thing is, the Investiture is not even supplied by the metal - instead, it is supplied by the Allomancers inherent investiture, stemming from Lerasium.

It's weird. Allomancy does rely on a small seed of innate Investiture to function, but also metabolizes a metal to draw more fuel directly from the Shard of Preservation.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e7708

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

Feruchemy is the art that really relies purely on your own Innate Investiture, though even it breaks the rules a little bit and draws extra power from the SR to facilitate change in states of matter. 

There's also just the fact that the term end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative are all imperfect terms that kind of break down the more you mull it over.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e171

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

 

[alder24]

21 hours ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

There are a few things that just don’t track with allomancy, that m’bro pointed out to me a little while back.

Sanderson calls it end-positive, but it seems vastly end negative.

With the process of this allomancy, metal… disappears. The amount of energy stored in matter is a heckofalot, and a steel-push is barely anything.

Then the second thing is, the Investiture is not even supplied by the metal - instead, it is supplied by the Allomancers inherent investiture, stemming from Lerasium.

Soooo…

Where does it all go?

Theres probably smt I’m missing here, and if soooo…

yea.

The terms end-positive and end-negative refers to where does investiture come from to fuel the magic. In the end-positive system, the investiture is gained from the external source, in the end-neutral it's gained from the internal source, while in end-negative investiture is lost in the process. 

Feruchemy is end-neutral, because investiture comes only from your body and what you store is what you get back. Hemalurgy is end-negative because you're stealing investiture and losing it in the process. Allomancy is end-positive because investiture comes directly from Preservation, not yourself, not your soul and not the metal itself. 

You do not use innate inherent investiture in your soul to fuel Allomancy, you do not use the metal you burn to turn it directly into investiture, it does not store investiture. Instead, when you burn a metal it opens a conduit to the Spiritual Realm and Preservation from where it draws the power and shapes it in the specific way related to the molecular structure of the metal. Metal is not a fuel in Allomancy, it's a door for investiture to come through into your soul. That's why this magic system is end-positive, investiture is gained from the external source - Preservation.

The fact that the metal is lost when you burn it doesn't matter as the metal itself is not powering Allomancy. Matter is energy and investiture in Cosmere and they can't be destroyed, they can only change forms. Burnt metal changed form into energy/investiture and it will eventually return to Scadrial in one way or another. 

Spoiler

mathota123

Is the creation of skaze end-negative?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you're not quite using the term right.

The terms "end-negative" and "end-positive" refer to a specific system--in most cases, we're talking about the individual(s) using the magic. Do you draw more magic out, or is it powered by your own native Investiture?

Awakening is what we call end-neutral, despite the fact that (obviously) the Breaths came from someone else in the first place. That's not the point in contention here--do the same number of Breaths (the same amount of Investiture) continue to exist in the system as you're manipulating the magic.

In something like AonDor, you are drawing out much more power than you put in--end-positive. That power is put to work doing something, such as healing a body, or creating a blast of power.

The skaze, like the seons, were created when a Shard was Splintered. The terminology doesn't quite work there, at least not in the way that scholars in the cosmere would use it.

The question from the physicist in this thread about where Investiture goes, and what it means for a Shard to have access to certain amounts of power, is related to all of this. I'm hoping to be able to find some time to craft a response there, as there are some fundamental understandings of the magic that are relevant to the discussion that I should point out.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Atium's Mechanism

Atium is, indeed, different from the other metals. When you burn most Allomantic metals, it opens a conduit through which you can draw upon Preservation's power and use it in very specific ways.

Atium doesn't do that. Atium is, itself, a fuel. When you burn it, the metal itself provides the power. A subtle distinction, I know, but it has to do with where the power is coming from. Most Allomancy is fueled by Preservation, but atium and malatium are fueled by Ruin.

This metal doesn't quite belong on the table where it has been placed.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (April 1, 2010)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Burned metals are turned into a different form, and will eventually return to the planet. The Pits of Hathsin are meant to foreshadow this.

Phoenix Comicon 2013 (May 24, 2013)

 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

 

[king of nowhere]

i'm sure it's said somewhere that the metal returns to the planet, it's not destroied. good luck mining it as traces dispersed in the ground, though

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I would venture to guess that the loss of energy is because the metal isn't getting converted into energy, as a Harmonium/Trellium bomb works, I think it's just trading one thing for another. Matter for Investiture, which isn't necessarily one-to-one.

Though as @king of nowhere said, both the Investiture and the metal return to Preservation's system eventually.

It's weird. Allomancy does rely on a small seed of innate Investiture to function, but also metabolizes a metal to draw more fuel directly from the Shard of Preservation.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e7708

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Thirty-Eight

Preservation's Power

All right, so maybe I lied about there only being three magic systems in this book. It comes down to how you term the powers of Preservation and Ruin, who kind of blanket the entire system. There are a lot of things going on here, and—well, the truth is I don't want to mention all of them, for fear of spoiling future books. However, I'll give you a few rules to apply.

First, to these forces, energy and mass are the same thing. So, their power can take physical shape—as Preservation's did in the bead of metal Elend ate. Second, there is a bit of Preservation inside of all the people—and it's this that allows the people to perform Allomancy. It needs to be awakened and stirred to be of use, but when it is, a proper metal can draw forth more of Preservation's power. It's like the metal attunes the bit within the person, allowing it to act as a catalyst to grab more power.

Allomancy is not fueled by metal; it is fueled by Preservation. The metal is the means by which a person can access that fuel, however. If there were another way to access it, then the metal wouldn't be needed.

Preservation's touch on people differs. Some have more, some have less. This doesn't make them better or worse people—indeed, some most touched by Preservation have been among the worst people in the world. As Ruin later points out, there is a difference between being evil and being destructive.

Regardless, if a person can get more Preservation into them, they become better Allomancers. Hence Elend becoming a Mistborn. Like all people, he had the potential within him—it was just too small of a potential to be awakened through normal means. That little jolt of Preservation's body, however, expanded and awakened his Allomancy.

As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn't the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else.

Feruchemy is the art that really relies purely on your own Innate Investiture, though even it breaks the rules a little bit and draws extra power from the SR to facilitate change in states of matter. 

There's also just the fact that the term end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative are all imperfect terms that kind of break down the more you mull it over.

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e171

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

 

Thanks!

Ok, looks like I was misunderstanding some things.

[Quantus he/him]

It's also worth noting that a much more recent addition to the Cosmere lore is the idea of a Luhel Bond, a specific class of spiritual Bond that trades Physical Matter (usually but not necessarily Water) for Power.  It was previously seen in White Sand and in more recent novels is heavily associated with Aethers.  All that to say Preservation's magic is very likely just following older cosmere/realmic patterns and utilizing their functions, so the fact that metal is Lost in the process doesnt really have to be specifically a Preservation Thing any more than the significance of Metal is.