iriali Golden-Haired People = Iriali?

[OoklaApologist She/her]

7 hours ago, LeondeBowa said:

Okay... But you understand that isn't an argument?

Like you're not referring to any proof or quote from the book while there are multiple pieces of clear evidence that suggests the easiest answer is immigration from roshir by the Iriali.

I get you don't want that to be the direction the story takes but it's fairly clear.

I’m sorry, I swear there’s a WoB about this but I can’t find it. Your idea is plausible, I agree with that.

[AquaRegia he/him]

I think it's extremely likely that the "golden-haired" people described in TLM are the Iriali.  The appearance of chouta in the novel clearly supports the idea of increasing numbers of people moving from Roshar to Scadrial.

I suggest not getting overly analytical about the detailed timing of events; keep in mind that what we have here is MAGICAL FANTASY.  There is an almost endless number of ways BS can handwave a supernatural explanation for things being the way he wants them to be for narrative purposes.

On 2/9/2025 at 3:25 PM, Nitpicking said:

I suspect what happened is just that not all the Iriali of Roshar went to the same world. What if each caravan went to a different place?

Everything we know of the Iriali indicates that they have, each time, moved en masse from one land to the next when the time came.

[Gregthegreat]

I believe they move as a large group to one location, but there is nothing that stops an individual Iriali from not going, or moving somewhere else. Just as we see that one has bonded a spren - they are people with free will.

Edited March 6, 2025 by Gregthegreat
Spelling

[QuantumAce]

On 3/4/2025 at 8:08 AM, LeondeBowa said:

Okay... But you understand that isn't an argument?

Like you're not referring to any proof or quote from the book while there are multiple pieces of clear evidence that suggests the easiest answer is immigration from roshir by the Iriali.

I get you don't want that to be the direction the story takes but it's fairly clear.

A reference to people in the rosharan subastral eating canned food is evidence directly from the text, and supports the argument there is ongoing contact between the cultures. We see several Scadrians living on Roshar and direct communication between the planets, well before the Iriali exodus. That does not prove this contact involved choutas, but it is evidence of ongoing opportunities for contact involving choutas. 

I think they are related, but the text makes it abundantly clear there are a number of plausible scenarios for the chouta recipe to make it to Scadrial outside of the Iriali migration. Choutas are inevitable. If the Iriali didnt bring them, it was going to happen eventually. My alternate theory is Felt was saddened by the loss of cultivations perpendicularity and time dilation at the end of WaT, and sent the recipe with detailed instructions to ensure a lasting bond between the planets. 

On 3/3/2025 at 1:47 AM, bmcclure7 said:

Iriail are not human and do not look human. They will be instant recognizes alien. Imagine today if even a handful of golden skinned people started walking around one of our major cities, speaking in an unknown language and wearing strange clothing. They’re telling me that wouldn’t make head lines

Oh, and maybe referred to as the "some sort of fairy creature?" Also, they wouldnt necessarily show up in a major city speaking an unknown language and wearing strange clothes. More likely first contact would have occurred in a more remote area, giving the Iriali a chance to get acclimated before small groups ventured into a major city. If the whole group just drops directly into a major city on day one, choutas and Irali wraps are going to get appropriated while they are herded into slums. They need time to develop a business plan for franchising. This is not their first rodeo. 

Theories are fun, but there is not enough evidence to make definitive statements either way. 

[bmcclure7]

7 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

A reference to people in the rosharan subastral eating canned food is evidence directly from the text, and supports the argument there is ongoing contact between the cultures. We see several Scadrians living on Roshar and direct communication between the planets, well before the Iriali exodus. That does not prove this contact involved choutas, but it is evidence of ongoing opportunities for contact involving choutas. 

I think they are related, but the text makes it abundantly clear there are a number of plausible scenarios for the chouta recipe to make it to Scadrial outside of the Iriali migration. Choutas are inevitable. If the Iriali didnt bring them, it was going to happen eventually. My alternate theory is Felt was saddened by the loss of cultivations perpendicularity and time dilation at the end of WaT, and sent the recipe with detailed instructions to ensure a lasting bond between the planets. 

Oh, and maybe referred to as the "some sort of fairy creature?" Also, they wouldnt necessarily show up in a major city speaking an unknown language and wearing strange clothes. More likely first contact would have occurred in a more remote area, giving the Iriali a chance to get acclimated before small groups ventured into a major city. If the whole group just drops directly into a major city on day one, choutas and Irali wraps are going to get appropriated while they are herded into slums. They need time to develop a business plan for franchising. This is not their first rodeo. 

Theories are fun, but there is not enough evidence to make definitive statements either way. 

They were referred to as fairy people by one nut job who  only referenced their hair not sink. This is not what would happen if the Iriali had actually come to Scadrel and no come into the middle of nowhere would not change this golden skin Aliens are still recognized as golden skin aliens no matter where they are 

[Ashbringer he/him]

On 3/2/2025 at 11:47 PM, bmcclure7 said:

Iriail are not human and do not look human. They will be instant recognizes alien. Imagine today if even a handful of golden skinned people started walking around one of our major cities, speaking in an unknown language and wearing strange clothing. They’re telling me that wouldn’t make head lines

The Iriali are humans. The WoB is about them having inhuman ancestry, depending on the definition of human. To me that reads that they have partially-inhuman heritage, like how Herdazians and Unkalaki have singer heritage / Natans have Aimian heritage. But those are still entirely considered human, just different ethnic groups.

Maybe native Scadrians would be surprised to meet a bunch of Iriali, but it wouldn't be much more surprising then Basin-folk meeting a bunch of Southern Scadrians, which had definitively happened by this point.

Also as someone living on a planet that has people with multiple different skin tones, "different skin color = non-human" is, uh... questionable.

 

Unrelated to all of that - I do think there's some other Rosharan migration occurring. Specifically, the Ghostblood "Coinshots" that were overly concerned whether the defense against a tsunami was Legal probably actually are Skybreakers, since we know spren actually can move off Roshar at this point in time.

[QuantumAce]

8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

They were referred to as fairy people by one nut job who  only referenced their hair not sink.

She only specified golden hair, but the "fairy people" clearly indicates additional unusual characteristics.

8 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

This is not what would happen if the Iriali had actually come to Scadrel and no come into the middle of nowhere would not change this golden skin Aliens are still recognized as golden skin aliens no matter where they are 

You are technically correct in that showing up in the middle of nowhere would not automatically change their physical appearance, but that is largely irrelevant. It would however, limit their exposure to the general population and keep the news out of headlines for longer. You are not correct in assuming they would automatically be recognized as aliens. The golden skin is faint enough to only be noticeable under the right light. With a good hat and a little care, its going to stand out far less than a wooden mask. 

[bmcclure7]

14 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

The Iriali are humans. The WoB is about them having inhuman ancestry, depending on the definition of human. To me that reads that they have partially-inhuman heritage, like how Herdazians and Unkalaki have singer heritage / Natans have Aimian heritage. But those are still entirely considered human, just different ethnic groups.

Maybe native Scadrians would be surprised to meet a bunch of Iriali, but it wouldn't be much more surprising then Basin-folk meeting a bunch of Southern Scadrians, which had definitively happened by this point.

Also as someone living on a planet that has people with multiple different skin tones, "different skin color = non-human" is, uh... questionable.

 

Unrelated to all of that - I do think there's some other Rosharan migration occurring. Specifically, the Ghostblood "Coinshots" that were overly concerned whether the defense against a tsunami was Legal probably actually are Skybreakers, since we know spren actually can move off Roshar at this point in time.

You’re missing my point my point is I don’t really care whether they’re technically human or not. My point is the clearly a different kind of human that the natives of this particular planet have not seen. They would stand out they would make the news the broadsheets will be full of stories about them.
 

Remember the southerns they made the news was a major discovery if Golden skin people had showed up in skadril then every newspaper would be talking about them not just one nut job

6 hours ago, QuantumAce said:

She only specified golden hair, but the "fairy people" clearly indicates additional unusual characteristics.

You are technically correct in that showing up in the middle of nowhere would not automatically change their physical appearance, but that is largely irrelevant. It would however, limit their exposure to the general population and keep the news out of headlines for longer. You are not correct in assuming they would automatically be recognized as aliens. The golden skin is faint enough to only be noticeable under the right light. With a good hat and a little care, it’s going to stand out far less than a wooden mask. 

She was also insane, the whole point of her character was that she was a nut job that would report anything. I don’t think we can give much credence to her fairy comment. For all we know, she might believe that all blonde people are secretly fairies. 
 

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

28 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

You’re missing my point my point is I don’t really care whether they’re technically human or not. My point is the clearly a different kind of human that the natives of this particular planet have not seen. They would stand out they would make the news the broadsheets will be full of stories about them.
 

Remember the southerns they made the news was a major discovery if Golden skin people had showed up in skadril then every newspaper would be talking about them not just one nut job

I'd be legitimately curious if it's possible to find real-life examples of people making news over discovering different races / ethnicities for the first time. Because it has happened, to a... variety of different outcomes, to put it mildly. Maybe it'd be a shock in the time, but in general a status quo appears and people hopefully just move on. (And we're not even sure how much they stand out - they're described as metallic/golden by Rosharans, but how does that compare to non-Rosharans where being blond is more common, and are they just more golden-tan as we would describe, or bronzed, or the Sovereign from Guardians of the Galaxy...)

 

Also the Iriali have an advantage - as a people they're fairly expert at worldhopping, so this isn't their first rodeo. I'd imagine they'd figure out how to do the tricks with Connection to learn the Scadrian language much faster than would happen with independent worldhoppers or real-world translators, which helps with their introduction. They also probably have a better strategy than opening a portal in the middle of Bilming and flowing through, they could appear gradually or more strategically.

 

46 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

She was also insane, the whole point of her character was that she was a nut job that would report anything. I don’t think we can give much credence to her fairy comment. For all we know, she might believe that all blonde people are secretly fairies. 

She also helped uncover the fact that the Set were about to try and blow up Elendel and potentially the rest of known Scadrial. Give her a bit more credit.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Remember the southerns they made the news was a major discovery if Golden skin people had showed up in skadril then every newspaper would be talking about them not just one nut job

Remember the southerns they made the news was a major discovery

I think you are applying modern media mechanics to what is, essentially, 1800s newspaper techniques. We have no indication that the Malwish were a basin-wide news sensation. They were in the House Record in SoS - and that was years after the Hunters visited the Southern Roughs. News did not travel fast in the era of Locomotive Transport - especially before the Telegraph. Elendel didn't believe the stories until an Airship docked downtown, and who knows how long it took for that to spread to the Roughs - there was a six year gap unaccounted for by the time we see most people have heard about the Malwish.

5 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

She was also insane, the whole point of her character was that she was a nut job that would report anything. I don’t think we can give much credence to her fairy comment. For all we know, she might believe that all blonde people are secretly fairies. 

While I admit Maraga is an unreliable narrator, I also doubt that Brandon would place these things in the text for no reason.

[bmcclure7]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think you are applying modern media mechanics to what is, essentially, 1800s newspaper techniques. We have no indication that the Malwish were a basin-wide news sensation. They were in the House Record in SoS - and that was years after the Hunters visited the Southern Roughs. News did not travel fast in the era of Locomotive Transport - especially before the Telegraph. Elendel didn't believe the stories until an Airship docked downtown, and who knows how long it took for that to spread to the Roughs - there was a six year gap unaccounted for by the time we see most people have heard about the Malwish.

While I admit Maraga is an unreliable narrator, I also doubt that Brandon would place these things in the text for no reason.

Isn’t it possible that the reason was to show that she was a unreliable narrator

10 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I'd be legitimately curious if it's possible to find real-life examples of people making news over discovering different races / ethnicities for the first time. Because it has happened, to a... variety of different outcomes, to put it mildly. Maybe it'd be a shock in the time, but in general a status quo appears and people hopefully just move on. (And we're not even sure how much they stand out - they're described as metallic/golden by Rosharans, but how does that compare to non-Rosharans where being blond is more common, and are they just more golden-tan as we would describe, or bronzed, or the Sovereign from Guardians of the Galaxy...)

 

Also the Iriali have an advantage - as a people they're fairly expert at worldhopping, so this isn't their first rodeo. I'd imagine they'd figure out how to do the tricks with Connection to learn the Scadrian language much faster than would happen with independent worldhoppers or real-world translators, which helps with their introduction. They also probably have a better strategy than opening a portal in the middle of Bilming and flowing through, they could appear gradually or more strategically.

 

She also helped uncover the fact that the Set were about to try and blow up Elendel and potentially the rest of known Scadrial. Give her a bit more credit.

No she was just giving that information she didn’t uncover it 

[RedBlue]

Maraga is an investigative journalist who is capable of working to professional standards as accepted by the industry. Her skills are real and credible. She has a personal interest in the sensational, which is why she ended up with a tabloid, but she isn’t the sort of crazy that involves hallucinating fairies.

If the golden-skinned people she references aren’t the Iriali, then what are they?

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Isn’t it possible that the reason was to show that she was a unreliable narrator

Anything is possible. But, again, this is Brandon Sanderson. Can you name any book where he makes a fake-out take-back like that?
He makes choices to avoid what he feels is "lying to the reader" unless there is no other path forward (Kelsier).

For example (Annotation to Warbreaker Ch 15):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifteen - Part Two

Vivenna Sees Vasher

I'm sorry that we don't get to see Vasher as much as you all want. I considered adding more chapters in. I considered it several times during several rewrites. In the end, I just decided that his viewpoints had to remain as they were in the early part of the book. If you see too much of what he's doing, it will give away things I don't want to give away.

I don't like having viewpoints that fail to reveal things about the characters and their emotions and plans. It feels like I'm lying to the reader when I hide things the viewpoint character knows. I avoid it when I can (though I can't always—reference Kelsier in Mistborn).

Either way, I just decided to keep Vasher as he was, with only occasional appearances.

Warbreaker Annotations (Sept. 28, 2010)

• Is it conclusively Iriali? No. 
• Does it imply Iriali? Yes. 
• Is it possible that Brandon would make this big of a deal out of this blatant of a refernce, then have it be nothing important? Almost 0%

I'm sorry if you don't like that; but we will not have this answer until Era 3 starts (unless Brandon gives us a WoB).
Have a great day.

[bmcclure7]

32 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Anything is possible. But, again, this is Brandon Sanderson. Can you name any book where he makes a fake-out take-back like that?
He makes choices to avoid what he feels is "lying to the reader" unless there is no other path forward (Kelsier).

For example (Annotation to Warbreaker Ch 15):

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Fifteen - Part Two

Vivenna Sees Vasher

I'm sorry that we don't get to see Vasher as much as you all want. I considered adding more chapters in. I considered it several times during several rewrites. In the end, I just decided that his viewpoints had to remain as they were in the early part of the book. If you see too much of what he's doing, it will give away things I don't want to give away.

I don't like having viewpoints that fail to reveal things about the characters and their emotions and plans. It feels like I'm lying to the reader when I hide things the viewpoint character knows. I avoid it when I can (though I can't always—reference Kelsier in Mistborn).

Either way, I just decided to keep Vasher as he was, with only occasional appearances.

Warbreaker Annotations (Sept. 28, 2010)

• Is it conclusively Iriali? No. 
• Does it imply Iriali? Yes. 
• Is it possible that Brandon would make this big of a deal out of this blatant of a refernce, then have it be nothing important? Almost 0%

I'm sorry if you don't like that; but we will not have this answer until Era 3 starts (unless Brandon gives us a WoB).
Have a great day.

Have a great day

[QuantumAce]

16 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

You’re missing my point my point is I don’t really care whether they’re technically human or not. My point is the clearly a different kind of human that the natives of this particular planet have not seen. They would stand out they would make the news the broadsheets will be full of stories about them.

Why would they stand out so much if their golden skin is only noticeable under the right light? If the Iriali are actively trying to minimize their exposure, you would have to be a crazy tabloid reporter looking for sensational stories to notice. 

Once the Iriali are recognized as aliens, they would not make broadsheet headlines across the basin on day one. They are used to fanciful tales from the Roughs that are obviously fiction, like Allomancer Jak and Nicki Savage. Nazh was running around for years blasting shade guns and whatnot, actually did appear in stories published in broadsheets across the basin, and still hasn't made headlines. 

[bmcclure7]

On 3/8/2025 at 8:42 AM, QuantumAce said:

Why would they stand out so much if their golden skin is only noticeable under the right light? If the Iriali are actively trying to minimize their exposure, you would have to be a crazy tabloid reporter looking for sensational stories to notice. 

Once the Iriali are recognized as aliens, they would not make broadsheet headlines across the basin on day one. They are used to fanciful tales from the Roughs that are obviously fiction, like Allomancer Jak and Nicki Savage. Nazh was running around for years blasting shade guns and whatnot, actually did appear in stories published in broadsheets across the basin, and still hasn't made headlines. 

Do you have any evidence that their skin is only a light gold? I was under the impression that was a deep bronze color clearly not typical human.

[Treamayne]

On 3/8/2025 at 9:42 AM, QuantumAce said:

Why would they stand out so much if their golden skin is only noticeable under the right light? If the Iriali are actively trying to minimize their exposure, you would have to be a crazy tabloid reporter looking for sensational stories to notice.

4 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

Do you have any evidence that their skin is only a light gold? I was under the impression that was a deep bronze color clearly not typical human.

Their skin is golden and metallic (in the right light), as is their hair. He may be thinking of Rira (Evi's homeland) which is mixed race and has skin that is not metallic (faintly golden - like a tan)

Ref and WoB:

Spoiler

WoK Interlude 5:

Quote

He continued whistling as he made his way through the town to the dockside. Around him flowed large numbers of the golden-haired Iriali. The hair bred true, like black Alethi hair—the purer your blood was, the more locks of gold you had. And it wasn’t merely blond, it was truly gold, lustrous in the sun.

WoR Interlude 2:

Quote

The urchin stepped timidly up to the stool, walking with a limp he tried to hide. He was Iriali, though the grime darkened his skin and hair, both of which were golden. The skin less so—you needed the light to see it right—but the hair certainly. It was the mark of their people.

WoBs:

Quote

Edited for length and relevance:

Enasor

How would you cast Adolin? He's always been one I struggled to pinpoint too due to his blond hair and his mixed heritage. Blond hair and blue eyes do bring in given imagery which seems to clash with the Alethi racial identity. Or at least, it does to me as a reader. So how would you approach it while remaining faithful to your work?

Brandon Sanderson

I actually think Adolin could be somewhat easier than others.

When we make the movies, I'll probably suggest that we make anyone from Shin, Iri, or Rira (all along the coast there) look Caucasian. The books can handle a lot more of a learning curve, I feel, than the films--and we won't have things like the Interludes to jump over to Iri to explore their culture. So a race of strange, golden-skinned and haired people who ALSO aren't native to Roshar (different from the Caucasians in Shinovar) might just be too odd.

General Reddit 2019 (May 24, 2019)

Quote

Ishana92

Chapter 36: Hero

Dalinar thinking about Evi.

With that pale hair and light golden skin, she was like a glowing gemstone.

Now, maybe I am confused about Iri looks, but shouldn't it be other way around, pale skin and light golden hair?

Peter Ahlstrom

Evi is Riran, so she has blonde hair rather than actual golden. The skin here is how we might describe someone in our world that way, rather than literal golden.

General Reddit 2017 (Jan. 1, 2017)

Quote

Podman36

Did the Iriali have inhuman ancestry at some point in the past?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of human. Most would say yes.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Hope that helps

[c22cc]

The term "golden skin" likely doesn't mean literally golden metallic like skin like those aliens in guardians of the galaxy. It's kinda like if one was referring to native Americans and their "copper skin" as them actually having a hard metal skin - it's clearly ridiculous. Y'all are taking this too literally. Dalinar's wife was irali. Her skin was normal skin, maybe a different tone or shade, but it was skin. Heck, if she had metal skin, maybe he wouldn't have been able to roast her to death (Yeah I said it!)...

I think it's pretty clear after reading W&T and now rereading TLM, that the irali came to scadrial and are in Bilming. Now, whether they brought chouta or not is another story. I could just as easily see Hoid or Sigzil bringing the recipe or a host of other world travelers, some maybe unknown to us at this time. 

 

[Treamayne]

Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 

6 hours ago, c22cc said:

Dalinar's wife was irali. Her skin was normal skin, maybe a different tone or shade, but it was skin.

Evi Kholin was Riran, not Iriali. Rira had some interbreeding with the Iriali and ther was Iriali heritgae in their ancestry.

6 hours ago, c22cc said:

The term "golden skin" likely doesn't mean literally golden metallic like skin

In the case of Iriali - yes it does. What it does not mean is a layer of elemental Gold over a layer of Skin. 

WoK I-5:

Spoiler

Around him flowed large numbers of the golden-haired Iriali. The hair bred true, like black Alethi hair—the purer your blood was, the more locks of gold you had. And it wasn’t merely blond, it was truly gold, lustrous in the sun.

WoR I-2

Spoiler

The urchin stepped timidly up to the stool, walking with a limp he tried to hide. He was Iriali, though the grime darkened his skin and hair, both of which were golden. The skin less so—you needed the light to see it right—but the hair certainly. It was the mark of their people.

Both Hair and Skin are reflective metallics - like using the "metallic paint" from a hardware store. 

WoB:

Spoiler

<Edited for Length and Relevance>

Enasor

How would you cast Adolin? He's always been one I struggled to pinpoint too due to his blond hair and his mixed heritage. Blond hair and blue eyes do bring in given imagery which seems to clash with the Alethi racial identity. Or at least, it does to me as a reader. So how would you approach it while remaining faithful to your work?

Brandon Sanderson

I actually think Adolin could be somewhat easier than others.

When we make the movies, I'll probably suggest that we make anyone from Shin, Iri, or Rira (all along the coast there) look Caucasian. The books can handle a lot more of a learning curve, I feel, than the films--and we won't have things like the Interludes to jump over to Iri to explore their culture. So a race of strange, golden-skinned and haired people who ALSO aren't native to Roshar (different from the Caucasians in Shinovar) might just be too odd.

The Rirans, which Adolin comes from, are already a mixed ethnicity themselves--not even Iriali, so it's fine to make them Caucasian. So Adolin could be cast white, if they really want to. Basically, I'm expecting it to be a bit of a fight to get them to cast four of the leads (Kaladin/Dalinar/Jasnah/Navani) as Asian actors. Maybe I'll be wrong, but from what I've heard from actors in Hollywood, directors and studios are hesitant about not being able to cast known names in big roles. (Ignoring the fact that's hard for Asian American actors to become big names if they aren't ever given big roles...)

General Reddit 2019 (May 24, 2019)

Hope that helps

Edited August 15, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Jult]

I'm not entirely sure why we're debating the wording around their golden skin and hair when official illustrations of them show the Iriali as metallic gold. But, if people want to focus entirely on text-based descriptions, the Stormlight World Guide for the RPG does use the word 'metallic' to describe the Iriali's features.

Spoiler

Quote

"Ethnic Iriali have golden skin and golden hair, which many foreigners consider auspicious. Ornamental body paint adds contrast to their metallic features."