idunnoshane Posted February 4, 2025 Posted February 4, 2025 When reading through both Mistborn eras, there were a number of "inconsistencies" or facts that just didn't vibe with me. Things that made me stop and think, "eh, that doesn't seem right" but weren't wildly off enough to make me sit and question what was happening. Questions like: - why does Scadrial have two gods and three magic systems? - why did Sazed have a close enough connection to Ruin to ascend with the Shard? - why was Sazed so opposed and disgusted by hemalurgy if it was a part of his power? - why did hemalurgic spikes repel the mists? - why do we see hints of both allomancy and feruchemy prior to the Lord Ruler's ascension but not hemalurgy? - why did we see manifestations of feruchemy solely in the area of ancient Terris? - why is hemalurgy the only magic system we saw the Set make use of? - how were the Set able to learn the secrets of hemalurgic creatures so quickly when it took a literal ascension previously to figure it out? - why was Trellium able to hide hemalurgic spikes from other gods? After contemplating these questions pretty heavily, a unifying answer seems pretty damn obvious to me: hemalurgy is a magic system of Autonomy -- not Ruin or Preservation. We know that Autonomy had been on Scadrial pre-Lord Ruler from Sazed's religious histories of ancient Trellagism -- so the right people were in the right place already -- and I hope to explain why it matches Autonomy more than Ruin or Preservation. I also hope to show some additional connections between hemalurgy and other magic systems suspected of being of Autonomy and I will attempt to provide some circumstantial evidence that hints Autonomy may be establishing various magic systems across the Cosmere by corrupting the local magic systems. why hemalurgy When we read through Mistborn, we're led to believe that hemalurgy is Ruin's magic system because he makes the most use of it. However, if you think about it, hemalurgy really fits Autonomy's agenda way more than Ruin. Autonomy is obsessed with pitting people against each other to reward the victor -- and this is exactly what hemalurgy does. With hemalurgy, you can have any magic system you want, so long as you can take it for yourself. It allows it's users to circumvent the limitations of other magic systems if you're bold and daring enough to take it for yourself. but what about ruin speaking in their minds? My current belief is that hemalurgy wasn't "of Ruin," but that Ruin was simply making use of one of the only avenues of influence he had while his power was being hidden from him. So if hemalurgy isn't Ruin's magic system, what is? Well, feruchemy ofc. There is actual textual evidence that would suggest any sufficiently invested being could influence hemalurgic creatures -- the fact that strong enough allomancers can do it. We see that the Lord Ruler, Elend, and Vin (with a bit of duralumin) are all able to control hemalurgic creatures -- and not only are they not Ruin, they aren't even Shards. They just have access to a lot of investiture. Now, if a simple allomancer like Vin or Elend could literally take control of hemalurgic creatures like koloss and kandra, a freaking Shard like Ruin or Harmony should be able to as well. In addition, we saw Odium -- a suspected ally of Autonomy -- able to make use of hemalurgy with Moash. Hemalurgy seems to be a universal magic available to all, man and Shard alike -- which really fits with Autonomy's whole schtick, too. The only exception we see to the powers of hemalurgy come from Trellium, Autonomy's god metal, which helps shield hemalurgic activity from other highly invested beings. ruin and feruchemy Did you ever wonder why the ancient Terris were the only people to ever attain the powers of feruchemy? Well, I did, and I think it's related to Ruin being locked up in the well of ascension located in ancient Terris. The Terris are the only peoples to develop feruchemy because they were the only ones close enough to Ruin for him to influence while he was locked in his prison -- and we know he was influencing them, as the Terris religion was the one he manipulated to eventually be released from his cell. Another thing that always bothered me was how Sazed was connected enough to Ruin to ascend to his Shard. We see that the Shards had developed to a point that a person needed to have a connection to the power to ascend to it, but Sazed had always seemed like a not-very-ruinuous dude to me. We're led to believe that his months of moping about religions not being true after tindwyl died is the connection that allowed him to ascend to Ruin, but i've always found that unsatisfying because even that doesn't seem really ruinuous to me. However, if feruchemy is the magic system *of* Ruin, then Sazed was born with a connection to Ruin. Sazed is a wielder of his magic system. The twindyl bit was just a bit of misdirection from the king of misdirection, Brandon. (I think that there's some connection here between Ruin's inability to see metal and feruchemy, but I'm not quite sure if it's fully fleshed out) Ok, but if hemalurgy wasn't Ruin's magic then why would hemalurgic spikes repel the mists of Preservation? Well, I guess i'd toss that back to you, why would you expect that to be the case? Ruin and Preservation used to be allies -- close allies -- and the people of Scadrial and their magic systems derive from them. It doesn't seem at all clear to me that their powers would repel each other. If it were Autonomy's power though? Well, we'd actually *expect* it to repel the mists because we see in book that Autonomy's metal *repels* all other sources of investiture -- of which the mists are. That's an inherent property of Trellium, so it would make sense that it's a property of trell's magic as well. I don't think it a coincidence that allomancy and feruchemy are genetically passed down amongst the Scadrians -- but hemalurgy isn't. Another "can't be a coincidence" here is that the home of the Terris in Elendel is literally in ruins. Beautifully ruinuous, but ruinuous nonetheless. It's described as a place where nature has managed to overtake the buildings of mankind within the city -- the new home of the people carrying Ruin's magic system is literally in ruins. That's the kind of foreshadow Brando loves. why did hemalurgy first show with the lord ruler? I think this one is pretty straightforward, we know Trell was mucking around on Scadrial prior to the Lord Ruler taking the power at the well of ascension. We also know that his ascension granted him wide swaths of information about Scadrial and it's people -- and I suspect that it was during his ascension that he learned of Autonomy's actions on the planet and Autonomy's corrupt magic system, hemalurgy. (side theory: I also think that the people he placed in the south of Scadrial were people of Autonomy -- which is why he moved them down there and left them alone. We know from ancient Trellagism that trell's followers were cold adapted like the Southern Scadrians and it also helps explain why there were no metalborn among the Southern Scadrians. It also helps to explain why Sazed doesn't seem to give a single storm about the Southern Scadrians -- and, in fact, worries about them developing faster than the basinates he protects. There are direct parallels between the ancient religion of Trellagism and the religion of the Southern Scadrians as well. I also think it's fishy that a spiked kelsier -- the epitome of Autonomy's power -- somehow found himself in the south in time to save the Southern Scadrians from the ice death of the catecendre and was then crowned as "the sovereign." Seriously, that had to have happened under Autonomy's influenec -- but all of this is a side theory for another day.) the set I hope I'm not the only one who thought it odd that the Set and wax's sister -- the literal avatar of Autonomy on Scadrial -- didn't have any freaking magic at all that derived from Autonomy other than a special metal that had advantageous hemalurgic capabilities. Not only did it allow for the creation of hemalurgic creatures with only a single spike, it also help to hide other hemalurgic activity from other Shards. Like, seriously? All they had was hemalurgy -- and they had a frickton of hemalurgy. They were extremely hemalurgically advanced. The only other person we've seen able to create new hemalurgic creatures from spikes was the Lord Ruler during his ascension, yet the Set is somehow able to figure out how to create hemalurgic creatures on their own? And not just any hemalurgic creatures, but hemalurgic creatures that only require a single spike -- unheard of for hemalurgic creatures before this. Sazed is disgusted by hemalurgy and puts great effort into suppressing knowledge of it, but somehow that's the exact magic system the Set start to exploit in their efforts to control the Elendel basin. First of all, I don't see why Sazed would try so hard to suppress his magic system. Now, if he knows it's the magic system of a competing Shard trying to step on his turf? Well that makes total sense, then. more strenuous connections to the wider cosmere Now this is where is gets a little bit more speculative, because it's really based on a WoB where brandon seemed to confirm a connection between the Fjordel and Shu-Dereth on Sel and Autonomy (search for WoB event #e15951, for some reason this forum thinks I'm spamming when I directly link it). If we take this WoB for what it seems like, we're led to believe that the Shu-Dereth and Jaddeth have some connection to Autonomy. This kinda makes sense with what we've seen on Scadrial, because just like ancient Trellagism and and Southern Scadrians, the religious mythology is based around two competing "brothers" with one brother trying to outshine the other (in the case of Shu-Dereth, that brother is Shu-Keseg). Now, what we also see in Elantris is that the Shu-Dereth have managed to discover a new magic system unrelated to other known magic systems on Sel -- and that magic system physically distorts it's wielders and is powered by human sacrifice. Now, if I were a betting man, that certainly sounds similar to hemalurgy to me. Could the magic of Derethi priests be just another corruption by Autonomy of a local magic system on Sel? I dunno, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Another, admittedly tenuous, relationship here is that the Shu-Dereth believe their god, Jaddeth, lives under the ground and will arise from the ground for them again one day. You know which other group of people associate the ground with divinity? The Southern Scadrians. They believe that heaven is underground and hell is in the sky. Pretty sus, if you ask me. Also pretty sus that Southern Scadrians have traditions which seem very Autonomy-ish to me, such as the competitive tradition of the hunt and mask wearing (which helps them hide their emotions from others). --- Soooo, tell me what you think? Curious to hear other's opinions here.
JustQuestin2004 he/him Posted February 4, 2025 Posted February 4, 2025 I, think you may be just a little off the mark here. I'll start by answering your original questions. 17 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why does Scadrial have two gods and three magic systems? Because Magic Systems aren't one-to-one with Shards, Sel also has two Shards but has a bunch of Magics like AonDor, Dahkor, Forgery, Chayshan, etc. It's been described as thus, Allomancy is of Preservation only, Hemalurgy is of Ruin only, Feruchemy is of their Balance. 19 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why did Sazed have a close enough connection to Ruin to ascend with the Shard? Because in the time after Well of Ascension, when he was heavily grieving Tindwyl, he began to discard religions he once held sacred as he tried to find a 'perfect answer'. He started to, in his own way, understand what Ruin stood for and how it means more than just death, but also peace with it. 20 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why was Sazed so opposed and disgusted by hemalurgy if it was a part of his power? More of a personal taste on his part, he just doesn't like the idea of people brutally murdering others to steal powers. 21 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why did hemalurgic spikes repel the mists? Because Preservation and Ruin are opposed to one another, they were opposites. Hemalurgic Spikes carried a bit of Ruin's Investiture, which repelled the Mists that hold Preservations Investiture, when Kelsier used Allomancy on the Atium Crystals in the Pit of Hathsin, they broke because of the destructive interaction between both Preservation and Ruin Investiture. 23 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why do we see hints of both allomancy and feruchemy prior to the Lord Ruler's ascension but not hemalurgy? There is no confirmation on its use, but there were implications. Mistborn the Final Empire Chapter 27 Spoiler I think I've finally discovered why Rashek resents me so very much. He does not believe that an outsider such as myself - a foreigner - could possibly be the Hero of Ages. He believes that I have somehow tricked the philosophers, that I wear the piercings of the Hero unjustly. According to Rashek, only a Terrisman of pure blood should have been chosen as the Hero. Oddly, I find myself even more determined because of his hatred. I must prove to him that I can perform this task. 27 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why did we see manifestations of feruchemy solely in the area of ancient Terris? Technically this isn't true, as Southern Scadrians had Ferrings and Mistings pop up rarely among their numbers. Though there is a WOB that states that the Terris were given the powers of Full Feruchemists by Preservation in ancient times. Spoiler NutiketAiel For Feruchemy, can you only inherit that? Or is there another way to get it? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, you could obviously get it through a Hemalurgic spike. NutiketAiel Yeah, but that’s kind of a different thing. Brandon Sanderson It is hereditary, but it came from somewhere. Which is a RAFO, but it’s not a big RAFO. There’s not something you missed in the books, or anything like that. It originally came from Preservation long ago. And there are other ways to get it, but you have not missed any major plot points regarding that. Good question. 30 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why is hemalurgy the only magic system we saw the Set make use of? I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this? Because they did have a least some natural Mistings and Ferrings on their side, Telsin Ladrian was born a Tin Ferring after all. Do you mean, "Why didn't they use off-world magics?", then it's because they didn't really understand Off-World stuff as much as other groups like the Ghostbloods do. Probably also didn't have free access to a Perpendicularity, with Harmony's being tightly controlled by the Malwish. 34 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - how were the Set able to learn the secrets of hemalurgic creatures so quickly when it took a literal ascension previously to figure it out? Because they had a god, Autonomy, helping them out, also they had interrogated someone who knew Hemalurgy and had years to experiment. Spoiler BTill232 Where and how did the Set learn about Hemalurgy initially? Hemalurgy did not seem to be common knowledge, at least to Wayne and Marasi when given the book by Marsh, but the Set seems to know all about it anyway. Brandon Sanderson So, yes, it was not common knowledge. There was some help from Autonomy on this, but it also involved the interrogation of somebody on-world that did not want to be interrogated. And then a whole lot of experimentation. They had years to play with this. They didn't come right out of the gate knowing exactly how to do it. 35 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: - why was Trellium able to hide hemalurgic spikes from other gods? Because that's just a quirk of that particular Godmetal, all Godmetals have an effect in each Metallic Art plus their own innate effect. Trellium repels other Investiture and hides the user, Harmonium explodes when wet and can express Mechanical Metallic Arts, and Raysium can funnel Investiture from one source to another. 38 minutes ago, idunnoshane said: After contemplating these questions pretty heavily, a unifying answer seems pretty damn obvious to me: hemalurgy is a magic system of Autonomy -- not Ruin or Preservation. We know that Autonomy had been on Scadrial pre-Lord Ruler from Sazed's religious histories of ancient Trellagism -- so the right people were in the right place already -- and I hope to explain why it matches Autonomy more than Ruin or Preservation. I also hope to show some additional connections between hemalurgy and other magic systems suspected of being of Autonomy and I will attempt to provide some circumstantial evidence that hints Autonomy may be establishing various magic systems across the Cosmere by corrupting the local magic systems. One little detail, Hemalurgy was created the second that Preservation and Ruin created and Invested Scadrial alongside Feruchemy and Allomancy. Can't find the WOB at the moment but it means that Autonomy couldn't have created Hemalurgy because Hemalurgy already existed at the same time as Allomancy and Feruchemy did. I'm not going to go through the rest of your post, because I'm going to be busy today, but just know that I'm dead certain that this theory isn't correct. 6
Treamayne Posted February 4, 2025 Posted February 4, 2025 6 hours ago, idunnoshane said: After contemplating these questions pretty heavily, a unifying answer seems pretty damn obvious to me: hemalurgy is a magic system of Autonomy -- not Ruin or Preservation. 6 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said: Can't find the WOB at the moment but it means that Autonomy couldn't have created Hemalurgy because Hemalurgy already existed at the same time as Allomancy and Feruchemy did. Hemalurgy is an expression of Investiture based on Ruin's intent of Destruction and Entropy. WoB: Spoiler Questioner I'm trying to understand the relationship between Hemalurgy and the Shard Ruin. Most of the Invested Arts involve inputs of energy of the Shardic Investiture that corresponds to it. That doesn't seem to be the case for Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. So I'm wondering what the relationship is between the corresponding Shards and those two Metallic Arts. Brandon Sanderson There's a whole lot going on here, and I'm not sure how much I can get into right here. But one of the basic concepts I built for the cosmere, way back when, was that a lot of the different magics would be showing up in different systems. And there are certain underpinning fundamental rules. And this is why you'll see Lightweaving working the same way across three different magic systems; I think you've seen it in three different ones so far. Elsecalling's gonna work the same way. Hemalurgy is a thing that is, like, part of the nature of the cosmere, that the Shard simply knew and was able to tell people how to do So is it of that Shard? Well, yes, because you would have to be following that Shard's Intent in order to use it. But it could be discovered on other planets, as well. Questioner And independent of Ruin's presence, really, except for as Ruin affects the cosmere as a whole? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Exactly. You are correct. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) It's a fundamental expression in the Cosmere, like Midnight Essence, Elsecalling (Aon Tia, Surge of Transportation), Lightweaving (Rosharan, Yolish, etc.), Archiving (Storing memories in Investiture - Nalthis, Scadrial), etc. This is also why Dova/Battar could make use of Hemalurgic Principals on Roshar, using the Rosharan Focus on Crystal instead of the Scadrian Focus of Metal. 3
+Oltux72 he/him Posted February 4, 2025 Posted February 4, 2025 1 hour ago, Treamayne said: This is also why Dova/Battar could make use of Hemalurgic Principals on Roshar, using the Rosharan Focus on Crystal instead of the Scadrian Focus of Metal. How did Battar charge her spikes? It also raises the question whether you can make spikes by awakening or AonDor. 1
Treamayne Posted February 4, 2025 Posted February 4, 2025 46 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: How did Battar charge her spikes? It also raises the question whether you can make spikes by awakening or AonDor. Good questions, and likely the questions Brandon expected us to be asking, but I don't think WaT answered any of those questions.
BinarySecond Posted February 4, 2025 Posted February 4, 2025 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: How did Battar charge her spikes? It also raises the question whether you can make spikes by awakening or AonDor. My personal theory is some kind of spren. Spikes carry the torn fragments of a spirit web and attach that to another person. There has to be some form of what I think of coding to impart an effect. I am skeptical that gaseous Investiture can impart that coding. Moash has something like Iron/Steel sight but for Investiture - A secret spren or something similar trapped in a gem may be able to impart the ability to detect Investiture. 1
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