Night

[KronosNotMe]

Do we know what the spren of Night is, we seen Stone and Wind but we get no interactions with Night. We know that the 3 bondsmith spren are related with the ancient spren, but we don't interact with Night or the Nightwatcher directly at all. ( Dalinar, Taravangian, and Lift all interact with Cultivation if I remember correctly) Does Night have any connection to Nightblood or the Night of Sorrows? Is it in another Cosmere book? Where did the Spren "Leave" to, and is that where Cultivation goes? 

[teknopathetic he/him]

Nightblood was created only in the past few 100 years most likely. Maybe The Night fled to Nalthis? Seems like the closest place to go after they left Roshar. It would be interesting to see The Night show up in a future book there. 

We also have the Nightwatcher, Night Form, and the Midnight Mother. Possibly one of them assisted in some way or their power was used somehow? Unlikely, but maybe. 

[CMac716]

I kind of assumed BAM was the Night

[Nitpicking]

Chapter 4 of WaT:

Quote

“When this world was created,” Wit said, “long before Honor, Cultivation, or Odium arrived, Adonalsium left something behind on it. Sometimes it’s called the Old Magic. That term is often applied to the Nightwatcher, who came—with Cultivation’s efforts—from one of those ancient spren.

Chapter 21

Quote

“When was the Nightwatcher created?” Jasnah whispered to Ivory. “We call her the Old Magic, but how long has she been around? When did Cultivation form her?”

Before Ivory could answer, a voice whispered back from a nearby air vent. “The Nightwatcher came from the Night, as the Stormfather came from the Wind. Though, when I was young, the Wind was different. So very different.”

...

“It has been confusing,” the Sibling said, “to learn of all that has happened while I slept. I knew the Stormfather when he was young. I, formed from the Stone, which was the sibling of Wind and Night. The Night left. Few loved her, or even spoke of her, and it seems Mother replaced her with a being of some of the same essence. A new creature, unconnected to anyone’s perception.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2025 by Nitpicking

[CMac716]

That last bit was why I figured BAM was the original Night. She foresook  humanity and the Spren to join Odium for the Singers, so Cultivation replaced her with the Nightwatcher. Maybe she planned to have her literally keep an eye on BAM once Cult left.

[TheoreticalMagic]

Yeah I'm also almost positive that Bo-Ado-Mishram is the original Night spren. Too much emphasis has been placed on her being substantially different from the other Unmade to a degree that IMO really only fits if she's on the level of a Bondsmith spren OR greater....and Night seems to be the only "missing" spren that fits that. Plus the fact that she's so Connected to Roshar and the Singers to such a degree as imprisoning her had the consequences it did....at this point I'd be very shocked if she's NOT the Night.

Plus, I think the Ado in her name is due to her being one of Adonalsium's own personal creations, like the Wind and Stone, and also Mishram IMO could be connected to Mishim, the name of one of Roshar's moons, which would fit the idea that the three remaining moons correlate to one of the three ancient spren. Certain lines about Night and the sky also made me think of a connection there. And all the other Unmade have names derived from Earth mythologies, with Bo-Ado-Mishram being the only one that's not an obvious reference, but there most likely is SOME significance to her name, which makes me think in her case its more of a direct in-world connection.

[CMac716]

You pretty much hit all the points that make me think so to. I tried analyzing the language on Roshar to figure what each piece of her name meant. Like, Ado on Roshar means Light. Closest thing I could find for Ba was part of Bakhash, which means seek. Along with Mishram being her original name, she could have gotten the title of Light Seeker, Mishram. Would also hint at her taking the Perpendicularity.

[MagicMaggot]

I do agree that given what we know, Mishram originating from the Night seems likely enough. I just hesitate in accepting it, because as it is, it wouldn't be much of a revelation. So BAM was made from some ancient spren that we never knew and that no pov character has any connection to? Doesn't sound particularly interesting to me, and I feel that might be a bit of a disappointment, after Sanderson made the origin of the Unmade such a mystery. I guess the other Unmades' origin would remain untouched by that, but I don't know...

Anyways, if that were to be the reveal, I'd hope that someone that we get to know better in the later half (probably a Herald) would give us anything in flashbacks or stories that would make the Night reveal worth it. Not sure what else could be done with it. Something with the Nightwatcher, probably? 

[Zahellion]

On 1/25/2025 at 1:54 AM, CMac716 said:

You pretty much hit all the points that make me think so to. I tried analyzing the language on Roshar to figure what each piece of her name meant. Like, Ado on Roshar means Light. Closest thing I could find for Ba was part of Bakhash, which means seek. Along with Mishram being her original name, she could have gotten the title of Light Seeker, Mishram. Would also hint at her taking the Perpendicularity.

Could Ba-Ado-Mishram be the original Girl Who Looked Up in someway...seeker of the light.

[CMac716]

10 hours ago, Zahellion said:

Could Ba-Ado-Mishram be the original Girl Who Looked Up in someway...seeker of the light.

I actually made a post about BAM being the girl not too long ago. The transition from white hair to red reeks of a corrupted spren. A world with no light sound a lot like shadesmar to me. The stealing of God's Light lines up with her taking the Perpendicularity and giving forms back to her Singers

[TheoreticalMagic]

44 minutes ago, CMac716 said:

I actually made a post about BAM being the girl not too long ago. The transition from white hair to red reeks of a corrupted spren. A world with no light sound a lot like shadesmar to me. The stealing of God's Light lines up with her taking the Perpendicularity and giving forms back to her Singers

Now that I think about it, with the speculation that Syl will replace the Stormfather as the Storm Queen upon the Return, and with us having seen her grow up and mature much like humans do for all that she's a spren, its actually suddenly very easy for me to picture a young Bo-Ado-Mishram as being to Ado what Syl was to Honor (especially now that we know Tanavast for all intents and purposes basically IS the Stormfather, who in turn has always regarded Syl as his Ancient Daughter), and The Girl Who Looked Up being a much younger version of that ancient spren kind of parallels Syl's youthfulness when she first returned to the Physical Realm in the modern era.

[Quantus he/him]

I have very little support for this and Im not sure the timeline works, but I think Night was created as the Spren of a permanent Lunar Eclipse Umbra that used to roam the surface of Roshar, and she "Left" because that particular moon fell and left her without her Physical Realm Anchor. 

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

On 1/24/2025 at 8:05 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

Yeah I'm also almost positive that Bo-Ado-Mishram is the original Night spren. Too much emphasis has been placed on her being substantially different from the other Unmade to a degree that IMO really only fits if she's on the level of a Bondsmith spren OR greater....and Night seems to be the only "missing" spren that fits that. Plus the fact that she's so Connected to Roshar and the Singers to such a degree as imprisoning her had the consequences it did....at this point I'd be very shocked if she's NOT the Night.

Plus, I think the Ado in her name is due to her being one of Adonalsium's own personal creations, like the Wind and Stone, and also Mishram IMO could be connected to Mishim, the name of one of Roshar's moons, which would fit the idea that the three remaining moons correlate to one of the three ancient spren. Certain lines about Night and the sky also made me think of a connection there. And all the other Unmade have names derived from Earth mythologies, with Bo-Ado-Mishram being the only one that's not an obvious reference, but there most likely is SOME significance to her name, which makes me think in her case its more of a direct in-world connection.

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

I have very little support for this and Im not sure the timeline works, but I think Night was created as the Spren of a permanent Lunar Eclipse Umbra that used to roam the surface of Roshar, and she "Left" because that particular moon fell and left her without her Physical Realm Anchor. 

Yes, when I saw this theory, I did think of the moon that fell. In Rosharan culture, the moons are each important - and there are three of them.

However, if one fell, that means that there are former in total, throwing of the theme of three, ya know? So maybe the one that fell was replaced by one to represent the Nightwatcher - or perhaps the sibling.

Silly theory, can and will accept criticism.

 

[Quantus he/him]

46 minutes ago, SpiritOfWrath said:

Yes, when I saw this theory, I did think of the moon that fell. In Rosharan culture, the moons are each important - and there are three of them.

However, if one fell, that means that there are former in total, throwing of the theme of three, ya know? So maybe the one that fell was replaced by one to represent the Nightwatcher - or perhaps the sibling.

Silly theory, can and will accept criticism.

Honestly I think there's going to also be a 4th Old Magic Spren. Im guessing we'll learn that way Back in the Day when Adonalsium created the Rosharan system there were 4 moons (and a Pre-shattered Plain),  4 habitable planets (and No Asteroid belt) and 4 Ancient Spren (my current bet is on a GodSpren of the Sea, just to mirror some of the Greek classics).  Tanavast confirmed that 16 was Adonalsium's number and things worked better if you followed the number schemes, and 3's dont fit nearly as cleanly.  The pattern of Three's really seems to be a post-Shattering development in many ways, and Im thinking that will prove to go all the way back.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Honestly I think there's going to also be a 4th Old Magic Spren. Im guessing we'll learn that way Back in the Day when Adonalsium created the Rosharan system there were 4 moons (and a Pre-shattered Plain),  4 habitable planets (and No Asteroid belt) and 4 Ancient Spren (my current bet is on a GodSpren of the Sea, just to mirror some of the Greek classics).  Tanavast confirmed that 16 was Adonalsium's number and things worked better if you followed the number schemes, and 3's dont fit nearly as cleanly.  The pattern of Three's really seems to be a post-Shattering development in many ways, and Im thinking that will prove to go all the way back.

Cool, this does seem to fit, especially with Rock’s Horneater story.

[CMac716]

What if the 4th moon was an Aether? Got a little hungry and decided to just go for the water down below. Lol

[Second Chances]

On 1/24/2025 at 2:12 PM, KronosNotMe said:

Do we know what the spren of Night is, we seen Stone and Wind but we get no interactions with Night. We know that the 3 bondsmith spren are related with the ancient spren, but we don't interact with Night or the Nightwatcher directly at all. ( Dalinar, Taravangian, and Lift all interact with Cultivation if I remember correctly) Does Night have any connection to Nightblood or the Night of Sorrows? Is it in another Cosmere book? Where did the Spren "Leave" to, and is that where Cultivation goes? 

The Night left Roshar shortly after the arrival of Honor and Cultivation because she was forgotten by the Singers. She went to another planet in the Cosmere but it is unknown which one she went to.

 

 

[Mattel]

On 1/24/2025 at 6:05 PM, TheoreticalMagic said:

Yeah I'm also almost positive that Bo-Ado-Mishram is the original Night spren. Too much emphasis has been placed on her being substantially different from the other Unmade to a degree that IMO really only fits if she's on the level of a Bondsmith spren OR greater....and Night seems to be the only "missing" spren that fits that. Plus the fact that she's so Connected to Roshar and the Singers to such a degree as imprisoning her had the consequences it did....at this point I'd be very shocked if she's NOT the Night.

 

OB page 1077:

Spoiler

The Nightwatcher seeped from the darkness. She was a dark green mist, vaguely shaped like a crawling person. Too-long arms reached out, pulling her along as she floated above the ground. Her essence, like a tail, extended far behind her, weaving among tree trunks and disappearing into the forest. 

WaT page 738:

Spoiler

Ba-Ado-Mishram was approaching. The Unmade took the shape of a black mass of smoke, with hands growing out of it to move. Powerful hands, entirely black, stretching out and gripping the ground to pull her along.

These two descriptions seem faaaaaar too similar to just be coincidence. I would not be surprised if Night is BAM and then Cultivation created the Nightwatcher in her likeness. Cultivation seems to enjoy giving and taking things from people to achieve cultivation, this is true, but the true part of cultivation in its very essence is taking what is already there and making it the best as possible per its potential. Once BAM left, I would not be surprised if the Shard of Cultivation deeply hated this, because Night was a part of Roshar, woven throughout it. So I think it is highly likely when she created the Nightwatcher she did it to replace what was lost and make it hers so that she would have another way of subtly interacting with the world, and also probably found joy in creating a being of herself that could live its own life. 

[Nitpicking]

6 hours ago, Mattel said:

... So I think it is highly likely when she [Cultivation] created the Nightwatcher she did it to replace what was lost and make it hers so that she would have another way of subtly interacting with the world, and also probably found joy in creating a being of herself that could live its own life. 

Did you mean to imply that the Nightwatcher is an Avatar of Cultivation? Because I like that idea. She fled Roshar, but is still there. She can try to counter whatever Avatar of Autonomy shows up.

[Ewery1]

9 hours ago, Mattel said:

OB page 1077:

  Hide contents

The Nightwatcher seeped from the darkness. She was a dark green mist, vaguely shaped like a crawling person. Too-long arms reached out, pulling her along as she floated above the ground. Her essence, like a tail, extended far behind her, weaving among tree trunks and disappearing into the forest. 

WaT page 738:

  Hide contents

Ba-Ado-Mishram was approaching. The Unmade took the shape of a black mass of smoke, with hands growing out of it to move. Powerful hands, entirely black, stretching out and gripping the ground to pull her along.

These two descriptions seem faaaaaar too similar to just be coincidence. I would not be surprised if Night is BAM and then Cultivation created the Nightwatcher in her likeness. Cultivation seems to enjoy giving and taking things from people to achieve cultivation, this is true, but the true part of cultivation in its very essence is taking what is already there and making it the best as possible per its potential. Once BAM left, I would not be surprised if the Shard of Cultivation deeply hated this, because Night was a part of Roshar, woven throughout it. So I think it is highly likely when she created the Nightwatcher she did it to replace what was lost and make it hers so that she would have another way of subtly interacting with the world, and also probably found joy in creating a being of herself that could live its own life. 

Really great catch. This confirms it for me. 

[TheoreticalMagic]

14 hours ago, Mattel said:

OB page 1077:

  Hide contents

The Nightwatcher seeped from the darkness. She was a dark green mist, vaguely shaped like a crawling person. Too-long arms reached out, pulling her along as she floated above the ground. Her essence, like a tail, extended far behind her, weaving among tree trunks and disappearing into the forest. 

WaT page 738:

  Hide contents

Ba-Ado-Mishram was approaching. The Unmade took the shape of a black mass of smoke, with hands growing out of it to move. Powerful hands, entirely black, stretching out and gripping the ground to pull her along.

These two descriptions seem faaaaaar too similar to just be coincidence. I would not be surprised if Night is BAM and then Cultivation created the Nightwatcher in her likeness. Cultivation seems to enjoy giving and taking things from people to achieve cultivation, this is true, but the true part of cultivation in its very essence is taking what is already there and making it the best as possible per its potential. Once BAM left, I would not be surprised if the Shard of Cultivation deeply hated this, because Night was a part of Roshar, woven throughout it. So I think it is highly likely when she created the Nightwatcher she did it to replace what was lost and make it hers so that she would have another way of subtly interacting with the world, and also probably found joy in creating a being of herself that could live its own life. 

Yup, I think this is exactly what happened. I agree, that similarity in descriptions for Bo-Ado-Mishram and the Nightwatcher that you found seems way too deliberate for her not to be the Night.

Edited January 30, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 1/25/2025 at 1:25 PM, MagicMaggot said:

I do agree that given what we know, Mishram originating from the Night seems likely enough. I just hesitate in accepting it, because as it is, it wouldn't be much of a revelation. So BAM was made from some ancient spren that we never knew and that no pov character has any connection to? Doesn't sound particularly interesting to me, and I feel that might be a bit of a disappointment, after Sanderson made the origin of the Unmade such a mystery. I guess the other Unmades' origin would remain untouched by that, but I don't know...

Anyways, if that were to be the reveal, I'd hope that someone that we get to know better in the later half (probably a Herald) would give us anything in flashbacks or stories that would make the Night reveal worth it. Not sure what else could be done with it. Something with the Nightwatcher, probably? 

The back 5 are going to be as much prequel and sequel, deep diving into the actual history of Roshar for the last 7,000+ years. No we didn't know much about her in the front 5 because she was trapped, but she will be very present in the flashbacks (and i really hope in the present) of the various heralds..and Hoid/Wit, if he manages to show up inbetween annoying and confounding Wax. I think it would have been even weirder to have never heard of BAM and then this spren is all over the place in the past. We'd all be asking why we'd never heard of her before the back 5.

 

[MagicMaggot]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

The back 5 are going to be as much prequel and sequel, deep diving into the actual history of Roshar for the last 7,000+ years. No we didn't know much about her in the front 5 because she was trapped, but she will be very present in the flashbacks (and i really hope in the present) of the various heralds..and Hoid/Wit, if he manages to show up inbetween annoying and confounding Wax.

I agree. But that's why I don't think this specific speculation can get very interesting. Saying that Mishram actually came from the Night, which we might get to know in the second half, isn't much more informative than saying that maybe she was once a guy called Carl, which we might get to know in the second half. It's certainly more likely that it's the Night than Carl, but whatever is interesting about it has yet to be said. 

Edited January 30, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

46 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I agree. But that's why I don't think this specific speculation can get very interesting. Saying that Mishram actually came from the Night, which we might get to know in the second half, isn't much more informative than saying that maybe she was once a guy called Carl, which we might get to know in the second half. It's certainly more likely that it's the Night than Carl, but whatever is interesting about it has yet to be said. 

Yeah, that's fair. I did feel like the knowledge of the Wind, Night, and Stone was clearly another one of Brandon's "Hey this is a thing, and has been a thing...stay tuned to learn more about it in 5-8 years" sort of things. I do think it will be interesting, but I'm still bummed about having to wait so long.