Kelsier reveal and Cosmere reading order

[Y F-N she/her]

I was disappointed that Kelsier was mentioned by name in Wind and Truth.

I have some friends who I've introduced to the Cosmere, and say that they prefer to stick with one series and finish it all the way through before moving onto another one. For these friends, I have recommended that they read Mistborn era 1, followed by Stormlight (due to mentions of Sazed and Harmony), followed by Mistborn era 2 (due to era 2 pulling the curtain back on the Ghostbloods, which are mysterious in early Stormlight). However, with one single word-- "Kelsier"-- in Wind and Truth, I can no longer claim that Stormlight in its entirety should go before Mistborn era 2.

So now, the reading order I have recommended to them is to switch back and forth between Stormlight and Wax + Wayne, either in publication order or alternating. But my friends don't want to do that.

I'm left with a dilemma. My friends have not yet finished Mistborn era 1, so I have time. But should I tell my friends to read Wax + Wayne first, and take away some of the mystery of the Ghostbloods? Or should I tell them to read Stormlight first, and spoil that Kelsier is still alive?

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Y F-N said:

I was disappointed that Kelsier was mentioned by name in Wind and Truth.

I have some friends who I've introduced to the Cosmere, and say that they prefer to stick with one series and finish it all the way through before moving onto another one. For these friends, I have recommended that they read Mistborn era 1, followed by Stormlight (due to mentions of Sazed and Harmony), followed by Mistborn era 2 (due to era 2 pulling the curtain back on the Ghostbloods, which are mysterious in early Stormlight). However, with one single word-- "Kelsier"-- in Wind and Truth, I can no longer claim that Stormlight in its entirety should go before Mistborn era 2.

So now, the reading order I have recommended to them is to switch back and forth between Stormlight and Wax + Wayne, either in publication order or alternating. But my friends don't want to do that.

I'm left with a dilemma. My friends have not yet finished Mistborn era 1, so I have time. But should I tell my friends to read Wax + Wayne first, and take away some of the mystery of the Ghostbloods? Or should I tell them to read Stormlight first, and spoil that Kelsier is still alive?

Most already recommended RoW before TLM, even though RoW also reveals Thaidakar's identity (even if a more circumlocutious way). I would say that reading Stormlight Archive Arc 1 before Mistborn Era 2 is still viable - and if Felt's utterance in WaT Interlude 1 seems like a problem for them (many may even not make the connection, or believe it is not the same Kelsier - if they have not read AoL they may even think that naming people after the Survivor is a "thing" in future Mistborn stories) you get to just RAFO them and (if you feel generous) tell them that answers will be found in M:SH (which should still wait until after BoM due to SoScad Spoilers) and TLM. 

Actually, from my friend's experience, the larger danger is reading TLM before Stormlight. For the people I know who have gone through this, they have all encountered the Ghostbloods in WoR without believing they could be "bad guys" because they already knew who Thaidakar was.

That seems the more egregious spoiler, to me. 

[Y F-N she/her]

13 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

and if Felt's utterance in WaT Interlude 1 seems like a problem for them (many may even not make the connection, or believe it is not the same Kelsier - if they have not read AoL they may even think that naming people after the Survivor is a "thing" in future Mistborn stories) you get to just RAFO them

This makes sense to me. I was told to read M:SH between era 1 and era 2 for some reason (still don't know why the person recommended that but whatever). It did not take away enjoyment from BoM, though I have of course recommended that my friends do not do the same. (I had other issues with BoM, and it remains the only Cosmere book that I did not like, but this did not affect it). Instead, I was seeing all the "Lord Ruler" stuff and going "wait, this sounds a bit like something Kelsier would set up..." and then felt good about it when I was right.

So I can see how the throwaway mention of Kelsier's name would be fine, as it's even less confirmation than M:SH.

Edited January 20, 2025 by Y F-N

[RedBlue]

1 hour ago, Y F-N said:

I'm left with a dilemma. My friends have not yet finished Mistborn era 1, so I have time. But should I tell my friends to read Wax + Wayne first, and take away some of the mystery of the Ghostbloods? Or should I tell them to read Stormlight first, and spoil that Kelsier is still alive?

IMO, if your friends insist on not jumping between series, the order should be:

Mistborn Era 1 -> Secret History -> Stormlight 1 to 5 -> Mistborn Era 2

I think M:SH is a perfectly good version of the Kelsier reveal, and some basics about the wider cosmere (Shards, the subastral, etc). It does change the reading experience for Bands, but not in a way that ruins it. And Stormlight goes before Era 2 to preserve the Ghostbloods’ mysteriousness.

Maybe throw Warbreaker in there between M:SH and Stormlight.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

It does change the reading experience for Bands, but not in a way that ruins it.

I think this is YMMV - I know a few people that having the SoScadrians spoiled before BoM really did hurt their experience for that story.

[AlmightyGir]

Heh... I often recommend Warbreaker as an ease in to the Cosmere. One book, indicative of both Sanderson's overall writing style, and what you'll get from a lot of the books, but no need to commit to a whole set.

From there I go Mistborn.

[Y F-N she/her]

 

Quote

I know a few people that having the SoScadrians spoiled before BoM really did hurt their experience for that story.

I have no memory of SoScads being spoiled in M:SH (which I keep seeing it as a censor of Moash's name lol). I'll need to reread it.

(unpopular opinion incoming) I actually think if I had remembered that happened, it might've improved what I thought about BoM tbh. The SoScads seemed too out of left field for me which is part of what I didn't like about that book.

1 minute ago, AlmightyGir said:

Heh... I often recommend Warbreaker as an ease in to the Cosmere. One book, indicative of both Sanderson's overall writing style, and what you'll get from a lot of the books, but no need to commit to a whole set.

From there I go Mistborn.

Same, that's my standard rec. Warbreaker is a great hook, especially with its free ebook.

Edited January 20, 2025 by Y F-N
added context

[Treamayne]

25 minutes ago, Y F-N said:

I have no memory of SoScads being spoiled in M:SH (which I keep seeing it as a censor of Moash's name lol). I'll need to reread it.

People in the South are referenced a few times, but without specifics. 

[Leuthie]

Dai-Gonarthis has greater participation in Stormlight Archive than Kelsier does in Mistborn Era 2. If they don't already know who Thaidakar was by the end of Rhythm of War, you don't have to worry about the reading order. They won't really get any of it, anyway.

[Y F-N she/her]

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

If they don't already know who Thaidakar was by the end of Rhythm of War, you don't have to worry about the reading order. They won't really get any of it, anyway.

I disagree. "Lord of Scars" was pretty much the only clue. While Kelsier does have scars, he is certainly not the only person to have them. Kaladin has prominent scars too, from his brand. But he is clearly not Thaidakar.

And since this is the only time Brandon Sanderson has ever faked a character's death across multiple books, there is no reason to assume "Lord of Scars" is Kelsier.

The other clue-- the big giveaway one-- is really that Hoid references beating him up in M:SH, which is often recommended after the reveal in BoM.

[Ailvara]

I think it may be a very interesting experience to have Kelsier as a "surprise reveal" in Stormlight, and then move on to Era 2, or even Secret History at this point to find out WTF just happened. It might be a strong one-punch realization instead of the more gradual journey of finding out first how Kelsier is alive, then what he's been up to. Also a great way to add more continuity to the reading experience, having this "How??" leading one from Stormlight 1-5 to MB Era 2.

"The Sunlit Man" is a great example of how it's not necessary, not even intended to read in the most "logical" order. I'm sure if it was published after WaT, most people would be dead-set on reading it in this order, because it spoils Sigzil's arc. And surprise, most of us didn't, the author intended us to read these in the, seemingly, reverse order, and that was fun too, just different. Ever since I saw how Brandon gets annoyed with some folks insisting on very strict reading orders, I wonder if he didn't publish "The Sunlit Man" this way entirely on purpose, to tease us and that approach.

Edited January 22, 2025 by Ailvara

[AquaRegia he/him]

My opinion is that anything which spoils the big reveal at the end of The Bands of Mourning should be avoided.  That scene - Wax accessing the metalmind containing Kelsier's memories - was the single coolest moment in the Cosmere so far.  For that reason, I would never suggest anyone read Secret History before Mistborn Era 2.

That said, it is undeniably true that things are getting messy in terms of spoilers.  I don't think there is any way to avoid them except strict publication order.

[Treamayne]

On 1/22/2025 at 3:57 PM, AquaRegia said:

I don't think there is any way to avoid them except strict publication order.

I don't think that strict publication order even avoids spoilers. My personal opinion is to just provide enough information for people to make an informed decision for themselves and their preferences.  

I've been working on an updated list that categorizes references by "level" (Major plot point, minor plot point, easter egg detail - those terms and definitions may change, feedback accepted)

From that post - regarding Stormlight Archive Considerations:

On 2/24/2023 at 4:31 PM, Treamayne said:

Stormlight Archive Reference notes:

  Hide contents

Books and their references - Labelled as Major-Important references impacting story, Minor - References that clarify story, Easter Egg - Tidbits that are just interesting when you notice, but not impacting story. Some Major and Minor references also have Easter Eggs, but titles are listed in their highest classification only.

1. Way of Kings has references and/or cameos from:
   • Major: None
   • Minor: None
   • Easter Egg: Elantris, White Sand, Mistborn Era 1
2. Words of Radiance has references and/or cameos from:
   • Major: Warbreaker
   • Minor: None
   • Easter Egg: White Sand, Mistborn Era 2, Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, and multiple Curiosities[1]
3. Oathbringer has references and/or cameos from:
   • Major: Warbreaker
   • Minor: Elantris
   • Easter Egg: White Sand, Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, Mistborn (both Eras)
4. Rhythm of War has references and/or cameos from:
   • Major: Warbreaker, White Sand, Elantris
   • Minor: Sixth of the Dusk, Mistborn (both Eras)
   • Easter Egg: Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
5. Wind and Truth
   • Major: Warbreaker, Elantris
   • Minor: Sixth of the Dusk, Mistborn Era 1
   • Easter Egg: White Sand

 [1] - If you are not aware of Sanderson Curosities:

  Hide contents

They are the "unpublished" works he has made available for fans. In the Cosmere, that is primarily:

• White Sand Prose
• Aether of Night[1]
• Way of Kings Prime
• Dragonsteel Prime[1]

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[Nitpicking]

20 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

That said, it is undeniably true that things are getting messy in terms of spoilers.  I don't think there is any way to avoid them except strict publication order.

Get Vasher to edit their memories.

[coolsnow7]

On 1/20/2025 at 1:58 PM, Y F-N said:

I was disappointed that Kelsier was mentioned by name in Wind and Truth.

I have some friends who I've introduced to the Cosmere, and say that they prefer to stick with one series and finish it all the way through before moving onto another one. For these friends, I have recommended that they read Mistborn era 1, followed by Stormlight (due to mentions of Sazed and Harmony), followed by Mistborn era 2 (due to era 2 pulling the curtain back on the Ghostbloods, which are mysterious in early Stormlight). However, with one single word-- "Kelsier"-- in Wind and Truth, I can no longer claim that Stormlight in its entirety should go before Mistborn era 2.

So now, the reading order I have recommended to them is to switch back and forth between Stormlight and Wax + Wayne, either in publication order or alternating. But my friends don't want to do that.

I'm left with a dilemma. My friends have not yet finished Mistborn era 1, so I have time. But should I tell my friends to read Wax + Wayne first, and take away some of the mystery of the Ghostbloods? Or should I tell them to read Stormlight first, and spoil that Kelsier is still alive?

I think having the Ghostbloods ruined as it were before starting the Stormlight is… not bad? Maybe net positive?

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

I think having the Ghostbloods ruined as it were before starting the Stormlight is… not bad? Maybe net positive?

I think it depends on the reader. I have a friend that read all of Mistborn (including The Lost Metal) before starting Stormlight Archive, and when he got to WoR he beleived Mraize and Iyatil were the hidden good guys "because they work for Kelsier" and it removed all of the "danger" from Shallan's scenes in WoR and OB for him (he also missed out on any mystery for Iyatil, because he immediately recognized her as a Malwish Hunter).

So, depends on the person's/group's perception of the importance of those subplots I think.

[Elegy he/him]

The problem with these reading order question is always that every reader's experience is incredibly different. For every person who says that Secret History ruins huge parts of Bands of Mourning, there are people like me who think that it's best directly after Hero of Ages, with Era 1 still fresh in your mind, providing an intro to the Cosmere as a whole after that one's very cohesive ending. What approach is the right one depends on the individual, but how can you know the right one for yourself before reading the books?

Brandon himself considers Secret History a "minor spoiler" for Bands of Mourning (see Arcanum Unbounded), so he thinks that it's generally okay to read it before. I personally even think that Bands of Mourning's ending comes completely out of nowhere without Secret History. It can seem like a fake-out, while Secret History immediately explains how it was possible for him to come back (while retaining the mystery of what he does after Era 1, and if he even is still on the planet). So if you're allergic to fake-outs like me, that order is the better one.

But even considering that that's a personal preference, I still think that Era 1 -> Secret History -> Stormlight (with Warbreaker before it) -> Era 2 tends to be the most preferable sequence, although there is no perfect one.

Release order is always a safe bet of course, but if I were to start with the Cosmere now, I'd hate to switch between series, so I'd prefer to keep them in one piece.

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Elegy said:

What approach is the right one depends on the individual, but how can you know the right one for yourself before reading the books?

That's why we discuss recommendations, is it not. To help a friend or loved one make an informed decision for themselves?

18 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Brandon himself considers Secret History a "minor spoiler" for Bands of Mourning (see Arcanum Unbounded), so he thinks that it's generally okay to read it before. I personally even think that Bands of Mourning's ending comes completely out of nowhere without Secret History.

But it's not just the ending that's spoiled in M:SH - it's the reality that people live on the Southern Continent. Though, being fair, if somebody has invested in Era 1 enough to read WoBs and/or annotations, they will already expect that to be the case as well (just as if they picked up on the foreshadowing in Era 1, they will already expect Kelsier is still involved in some way). 

To help make an informed decision, I would ask them to talk about Era 1, what they think and what they expect. If they are already expecting either (or both) of those reveals, then I would be far more comfortable recommending Secret History before Era 2. I still think the best reading of M:SH is the re-reading - Integrated and simultaneous with Era 1 (but would never recommend that as the first reading of M:SH)

Mostly I concur - let them know the possible ramifications of either choice, then support whatever choice they make. 

[Seana she/her]

On 1/29/2025 at 5:11 AM, Treamayne said:

I think it depends on the reader. I have a friend that read all of Mistborn (including The Lost Metal) before starting Stormlight Archive, and when he got to WoR he beleived Mraize and Iyatil were the hidden good guys "because they work for Kelsier" and it removed all of the "danger" from Shallan's scenes in WoR and OB for him (he also missed out on any mystery for Iyatil, because he immediately recognized her as a Malwish Hunter).

So, depends on the person's/group's perception of the importance of those subplots I think.

To see the Ghostbloods as “hidden good guys” after reading everything Mistborn seems ludicrous to me- Kelsier is consistently described more like the Joker or a mob boss (or at the very least a grey-scale hero rather than a light-scale hero).

 

As for the greater discussion, I have been reading almost everything in publishing order since I have been forced to- I have been reading Sanderson’s books since 2012.

I had a hunch that Kelsier was the leader of the Ghostbloods after I saw the Ghostblood symbol accurately drawn out and had scoured the letter from Harmony in Oathbringer’s chapter headings (at least, that’s where I remember it being, it has been years...). I was not surprised in the slightest when Kelsier was ‘confirmed’ as “the Lord of Scars” in RoW. My father-in-law however got his reveal from the last Wax and Wayne book. It works either way.

I will say, if you don’t read in publishing order for Mistborn and Stormlight, Hoid/Wit’s presence probably will not stress you out as much while reading the last Wax and Wayne book. Knowing things are going down on Roshar but not knowing how it ends while reading about how Hoid is being a convenient coachman on Scadrial was quite the experience.

[Hoids4thApprentice he/him]

On 1/20/2025 at 6:58 PM, Y F-N said:

I was disappointed that Kelsier was mentioned by name in Wind and Truth.

I have some friends who I've introduced to the Cosmere, and say that they prefer to stick with one series and finish it all the way through before moving onto another one. For these friends, I have recommended that they read Mistborn era 1, followed by Stormlight (due to mentions of Sazed and Harmony), followed by Mistborn era 2 (due to era 2 pulling the curtain back on the Ghostbloods, which are mysterious in early Stormlight). However, with one single word-- "Kelsier"-- in Wind and Truth, I can no longer claim that Stormlight in its entirety should go before Mistborn era 2.

So now, the reading order I have recommended to them is to switch back and forth between Stormlight and Wax + Wayne, either in publication order or alternating. But my friends don't want to do that.

I'm left with a dilemma. My friends have not yet finished Mistborn era 1, so I have time. But should I tell my friends to read Wax + Wayne first, and take away some of the mystery of the Ghostbloods? Or should I tell them to read Stormlight first, and spoil that Kelsier is still alive?

I understand that you worry the naming of Kelsier as leader of the Gohstbloods would spoil Mistborn Secret Hostory and Era 2. For me personally though, I am at the opposite end of the spectrum from those who would avoid reading something for mild potential spoilers. For me the greater concern is missing fine details or easter eggs because I didn’t know there were references in previous works (so for me, I would always recommend reading the White Sand Omnibus and Elantris as well as Mistborn Era 1 before Way of Kings to give the reader a fair chance at figuring out the 17th Shard trio, same goes for reading Warbreaker before Words of Radiance to give a chance of identifying Zahel).

That said, I also understand why your friends might only want to read the mainline series and read one series at a time. In terms of reading order, Mistborn Era 1 comes first. I do however think there is an alternative to having to choose all of Stormlight front 5 or all of Mistborn Era 2 next without having to follow publication or an alternating books form each serues. I genuinely think there is a different feel to Brandon's writing as he develops the Cosmere further. As a result, I think that Lost Metal feels quite different than the first 3 Era 2 books. There is also a significant time jump from Bands to LM. Similarly, I think Way of Kings, Words of Radiance and Oatbringer have their own feel and arc before the time jump to Rythm of War. My recommended reading order would therefor be:

·         Mistborn Era 1 

·         Strmlight 1-3

·         Misborn era 2 (1-3)

·         Finishing off with Rythm of War, Wind and Truth and Lost Metal (in that order)

I’m not sure whether that would actually follow Cosmere chronological order when it comes to Stormlight 1-3 and Mistborn Era 2 1-3 but, like a previous poster, I do think getting the end of Wind and Truth before the Lost Metal would make the Lost Metals ending land better (especially as this is where the gloves come off in terms of introducing the scale of the Cosmere by introducing new planets like Datri and Mythos).

[Returned he/him]

Secret History came out nine years ago. I appreciate the concerns expressed here but I think it might be worth considering that at this point these aren't spoilers. They're just the text revealing information that's in the stories. No one complains that Hoid being revealed as a worldhopper is spoiled no matter where they realize it first, nor that Nightblood's presence on Roshar spoils information about him in Warbreaker. This sort of information is now just hints or cross-references which are increasingly unavoidable as the intermingling of series becomes more and more overt (which is what has been promised will happen).

It's an irreducible problem with a bunch of distinct series that are really one large story, and if you're picking and choosing which reveals get to be dramatic for you and which will be lackluster you're already losing something from the reading experience. If a person refuses to read in publication order then they've made their choice that these sorts of references-as-surprises don't matter to them as much as other things, and they'll get the dramatic versions of revelations for the stories they like the best (that is, the series they're reading) and intriguing connections for the others. After suggesting publication order I wouldn't encroach on their reading order beyond identifying which setting/magic system/characters they like the best and turning them loose on that series to make of things what they can. We've still got at least 11 books' worth of big reveals to come!